237 réponses à ce sujet

[leaguer of one]

David7204 wrote...

I can pretty confidently 'define' that a great deal of players saw Shepard dying in Mass Effect 3 as losing. And we can't just look at what the characters are concerned with - we must consider what the audience is concerned with. Even if characters are content to die, that doesn't players are content to let them.

Then you have a war on you hands may people want different things and as much people who wanted Shepard to live  there are as much people who are ok with Shepard dieing. You can't make everyone happy.

Besides, ME3 does have an ending where Shepard lives.

[David7204]

Dragon Age is not Mass Effect.

[David7204]

leaguer of one wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I can pretty confidently 'define' that a great deal of players saw Shepard dying in Mass Effect 3 as losing. And we can't just look at what the characters are concerned with - we must consider what the audience is concerned with. Even if characters are content to die, that doesn't players are content to let them.

Then you have a war on you hands may people want different things and as much people who wanted Shepard to live  there are as much people who are ok with Shepard dieing. You can't make everyone happy.

Besides, ME3 does have an ending where Shepard lives.

That's just hiding behind 'some people liked it, so it must be okay."

Yes, some people were okay with or liked the ending. Yes, people like different things. That doesn't change the fact that there was an overwhelmingly negative response to it that continues to this day. You can justify anything on the grounds of 'people like different things.' There's nothing so stupid that some people won't like it.

[leaguer of one]

The Hierophant wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's just not good enough.

You can't justify losing no matter what on the grounds of part of the story being light. And when players have a very heavy investment in the protagonist and their companions, unavoidable death absolutely qualifies as losing no matter what to a lot of people.

Not in a story like this.

So the Joining/Ostagar, the HN origin, Tamlen, blind templar guy, Mhairi, Bethaney, and Carver must've been horrendous for you?

The intro the Jade empire and Kotor.....The sole servivor and colinist back grounds.... Supporting the mages and Hawkes Mother Dieing...

[leaguer of one]

David7204 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I can pretty confidently 'define' that a great deal of players saw Shepard dying in Mass Effect 3 as losing. And we can't just look at what the characters are concerned with - we must consider what the audience is concerned with. Even if characters are content to die, that doesn't players are content to let them.

Then you have a war on you hands may people want different things and as much people who wanted Shepard to live  there are as much people who are ok with Shepard dieing. You can't make everyone happy.

Besides, ME3 does have an ending where Shepard lives.

That's just hiding behind 'some people liked it, so it must be okay."

Yes, some people were okay with or liked the ending. Yes, people like different things. That doesn't change the fact that there was an overwhelmingly negative response to it that continues to this day. You can justify anything on the grounds of 'people like different things.' There's nothing so stupid that some people won't like it.

No it not. That's just  not making everyone happy and it not a "some>"

And the negative reponse were mostly about the ending not making sense not Shepard dying.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 28 août 2013 - 09:38 .

[David7204]

leaguer of one wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's just not good enough.

You can't justify losing no matter what on the grounds of part of the story being light. And when players have a very heavy investment in the protagonist and their companions, unavoidable death absolutely qualifies as losing no matter what to a lot of people.

Not in a story like this.

So the Joining/Ostagar, the HN origin, Tamlen, blind templar guy, Mhairi, Bethaney, and Carver must've been horrendous for you?

The intro the Jade empire and Kotor.....The sole servivor and colinist back grounds.... Supporting the mages and Hawkes Mother Dieing...

No. Nobody's saying such a story can't have very serious and significant hardship and loss.

However, there needs to be at the very least an option of such hardship being validated by triumph and happiness.

[leaguer of one]

David7204 wrote...

Dragon Age is not Mass Effect.

But they are both bw series and writers form both series hppen to work on both.

[leaguer of one]

David7204 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's just not good enough.

You can't justify losing no matter what on the grounds of part of the story being light. And when players have a very heavy investment in the protagonist and their companions, unavoidable death absolutely qualifies as losing no matter what to a lot of people.

Not in a story like this.

So the Joining/Ostagar, the HN origin, Tamlen, blind templar guy, Mhairi, Bethaney, and Carver must've been horrendous for you?

The intro the Jade empire and Kotor.....The sole servivor and colinist back grounds.... Supporting the mages and Hawkes Mother Dieing...

No. Nobody's saying such a story can't have very serious and significant hardship and loss.

However, there needs to be at the very least an option of such hardship being validated by triumph and happiness.

Happiness is subjective. I can be just as happy knowing everyone I loved live through my sacrific.

[The Hierophant]

leaguer of one wrote...

The intro the Jade empire and Kotor.....The sole survivor and colonist back grounds.... Supporting the mages and Hawkes Mother Dieing...

Jenkins too. lulz.

[Neon Rising Winter]

leaguer of one wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's just not good enough.

You can't justify losing no matter what on the grounds of part of the story being light. And when players have a very heavy investment in the protagonist and their companions, unavoidable death absolutely qualifies as losing no matter what to a lot of people.

Not in a story like this.

So the Joining/Ostagar, the HN origin, Tamlen, blind templar guy, Mhairi, Bethaney, and Carver must've been horrendous for you?

The intro the Jade empire and Kotor.....The sole servivor and colinist back grounds.... Supporting the mages and Hawkes Mother Dieing...

Most of those examples you'd be hard pressed to make a case that people had sufficient time to be heavily invested in the people dying. Pick out one of the few where they were - say Hawke's mother - that one got itself a bit of negative feedback for having no save her option right? Seems to support the point, not contradict it.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

David7204 wrote...

Dragon Age is not Mass Effect.

And Mass Effect is not Dragon Age.

And this is a Dragon Age forum. And you're talking about Mass Effect.

Do I need to contact a mod?

[David7204]

That's not what matters. What matters is that Shepard's death wasn't presented anything remotely like the Wardens, for numerous reasons.

[leaguer of one]

Narrow Margin wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

David7204 wrote...

That's just not good enough.

You can't justify losing no matter what on the grounds of part of the story being light. And when players have a very heavy investment in the protagonist and their companions, unavoidable death absolutely qualifies as losing no matter what to a lot of people.

Not in a story like this.

So the Joining/Ostagar, the HN origin, Tamlen, blind templar guy, Mhairi, Bethaney, and Carver must've been horrendous for you?

The intro the Jade empire and Kotor.....The sole servivor and colinist back grounds.... Supporting the mages and Hawkes Mother Dieing...

Most of those examples you'd be hard pressed to make a case that people had sufficient time to be heavily invested in the people dying. Pick out one of the few where they were - say Hawke's mother - that one got itself a bit of negative feedback for having no save her option right? Seems to support the point, not contradict it.

But it had a point to the plot. It was not dark for dark sake.

[lady_v23]

...why? 

[Beerfish]

leaguer of one wrote...



And the negative reponse were mostly about the ending not making sense not Shepard dying.

I disagree with you and agree with David.  If there was an ending like DAO where there were various scenarios, one in which you sacrifice yourself but another in which you go out the hero people would have been more than happy.  ME3 made you (as in shepard) the loser because a winning sceanrio is winning the day and surviving to tell about it.

[leaguer of one]

David7204 wrote...

That's not what matters. What matters is that Shepard's death wasn't presented anything remotely like the Wardens, for numerous reasons.

Are we going to go over the quality of the deaths now.

One choice makes me something like a god but ends my life as a human.
Anothor I let the reaper get what they want on the concept my sacrifice is making things better.
And one I kill off the reapers while sacrificing synthetic life and I can servive through it.

All choice I can have a noble death saving the ones I love based on the choices I made.

[leaguer of one]

Beerfish wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...



And the negative reponse were mostly about the ending not making sense not Shepard dying.

I disagree with you and agree with David.  If there was an ending like DAO where there were various scenarios, one in which you sacrifice yourself but another in which you go out the hero people would have been more than happy.  ME3 made you (as in shepard) the loser because a winning sceanrio is winning the day and surviving to tell about it.

The meaning of winnig is subjective. Especially when your gola was to do what it took to stop the reapers. That does not require you living. Added there is an ending with Shepard living.

[Neon Rising Winter]

leaguer of one wrote...
But it had a point to the plot. It was not dark for dark sake.

My point however was not whether the death was a good idea in a narrative sense. Just that the initial argument was people would be unhappy with the deaths of characters they were invested in. Most of the examples given didn't meet that criteria. One of the ones that did provoked stronger negative feedback from players.

[leaguer of one]

Narrow Margin wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
But it had a point to the plot. It was not dark for dark sake.

My point however was not whether the death was a good idea in a narrative sense. Just that the initial argument was people would be unhappy with the deaths of characters they were invested in. Most of the examples given didn't meet that criteria. One of the ones that did provoked stronger negative feedback from players.

Your point here is choice but most of the exaple given the players can't avoide ether.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 28 août 2013 - 09:53 .

[Neon Rising Winter]

DAO manages the death of the protagonist very well for me. It introduces the idea several hours before you will encounter that section of the game, giving you time to get used to it. It offers at least two ways out either by avoiding it entirely or allowing a proxy to die in the protagonist's place, meaning anyone who loathes the idea can avoid it. If you get to the end and the protagonist dies it is because the player has very actively, and knowing what they are doing, decided to kill them. It doesn't remove the player's agency at the last minute.

[Neon Rising Winter]

leaguer of one wrote...

Narrow Margin wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
But it had a point to the plot. It was not dark for dark sake.

My point however was not whether the death was a good idea in a narrative sense. Just that the initial argument was people would be unhappy with the deaths of characters they were invested in. Most of the examples given didn't meet that criteria. One of the ones that did provoked stronger negative feedback from players.

Your point here is choice but most of the exaple given the players can't avoide ether.

No no, sorry if it's not clear. My point is investment with the character dying, not choice. Most of the examples died at a point when they player had no time to become invested in them. Choice isn't what I'm arguing at all.

[leaguer of one]

Narrow Margin wrote...

DAO manages the death of the protagonist very well for me. It introduces the idea several hours before you will encounter that section of the game, giving you time to get used to it. It offers at least two ways out either by avoiding it entirely or allowing a proxy to die in the protagonist's place, meaning anyone who loathes the idea can avoid it. If you get to the end and the protagonist dies it is because the player has very actively, and knowing what they are doing, decided to kill them. It doesn't remove the player's agency at the last minute.

1. ME3 has a way out of the death.
2. The concept of dying to stop the reaper and the fact you may not win or servive the war is always brought up in the plot of ME3......what's sudden is how the main character dies.

[leaguer of one]

Narrow Margin wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Narrow Margin wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
But it had a point to the plot. It was not dark for dark sake.

My point however was not whether the death was a good idea in a narrative sense. Just that the initial argument was people would be unhappy with the deaths of characters they were invested in. Most of the examples given didn't meet that criteria. One of the ones that did provoked stronger negative feedback from players.

Your point here is choice but most of the exaple given the players can't avoide ether.

No no, sorry if it's not clear. My point is investment with the character dying, not choice. Most of the examples died at a point when they player had no time to become invested in them. Choice isn't what I'm arguing at all.

Player investment does not defer the death of characters. Many do die in ME3 reguardless of what the player does even when they are invested. Heck, even Wynne died in the da series.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 28 août 2013 - 10:00 .