237 réponses à ce sujet

[Neon Rising Winter]

leaguer of one wrote...

Narrow Margin wrote...

DAO manages the death of the protagonist very well for me. It introduces the idea several hours before you will encounter that section of the game, giving you time to get used to it. It offers at least two ways out either by avoiding it entirely or allowing a proxy to die in the protagonist's place, meaning anyone who loathes the idea can avoid it. If you get to the end and the protagonist dies it is because the player has very actively, and knowing what they are doing, decided to kill them. It doesn't remove the player's agency at the last minute.

1. ME3 has a way out of the death.
2. The concept of dying to stop the reaper and the fact you may not win or servive the war is always brought up in the plot of ME3......what's sudden is how the main character dies.

I don't think ME3's way out of the death plays as such to many people. It comes across as a throwaway teaser almost rather than part of the narrative.

And my point with DAO is it's not vague or ambiguous at all. It's a great big neon sign getting the player used to the idea of incoming death. The fact you are also given definite ways out is also a warning that - no, we mean it, death. ME3, as you say, presents this suddenly, and because you're right at the end of the game there's no remaining narrative where the player can adjust to the concept, they're just thrown into the credits while they're still going 'Huh, what?'

[Inquisitor Recon]

Honestly I would like to see a sucker punch like that, DA:O had Ostagar but it was kind of clear things wouldn't go as planned there. else there wouldn't be much for the Warden to do. Get to the point where the PC likes a bunch of the people he knows, then brutally murder them.

[leaguer of one]

Narrow Margin wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Narrow Margin wrote...

DAO manages the death of the protagonist very well for me. It introduces the idea several hours before you will encounter that section of the game, giving you time to get used to it. It offers at least two ways out either by avoiding it entirely or allowing a proxy to die in the protagonist's place, meaning anyone who loathes the idea can avoid it. If you get to the end and the protagonist dies it is because the player has very actively, and knowing what they are doing, decided to kill them. It doesn't remove the player's agency at the last minute.

1. ME3 has a way out of the death.
2. The concept of dying to stop the reaper and the fact you may not win or servive the war is always brought up in the plot of ME3......what's sudden is how the main character dies.

I don't think ME3's way out of the death plays as such to many people. It comes across as a throwaway teaser almost rather than part of the narrative.

And my point with DAO is it's not vague or ambiguous at all. It's a great big neon sign getting the player used to the idea of incoming death. The fact you are also given definite ways out is also a warning that - no, we mean it, death. ME3, as you say, presents this suddenly, and because you're right at the end of the game there's no remaining narrative where the player can adjust to the concept, they're just thrown into the credits while they're still going 'Huh, what?'

Not liking that it's open ended does no defer that fact that it's there and Shepard does live. It's give to the player to run with it. And being that this is game based on choice, you given the choice to decided the outcome of the moment.

Whether Shepard lives or not is your decision.

Also, the player has pleanty of time to adjust to the choices in EC. It was only a sudden ending pre ec.

[Neon Rising Winter]

Not liking that it's open ended does no defer that fact that it's there and Shepard does live. It's give to the player to run with it. And being that this is game based on choice, you given the choice to decided the outcome of the moment.

Whether Shepard lives or not is your decision.

Also, the player has pleanty of time to adjust to the choices in EC. It was only a sudden ending pre ec.

But empirical evidence suggests that this does not lead to a positive response in the game playing audience. Whereas the DAO one does. And assuming we accept that a positive response from the audience is desirable, what's the difference between the two and how do you ensure that if you do use the concept it is received well.

[leaguer of one]

Narrow Margin wrote...

Not liking that it's open ended does no defer that fact that it's there and Shepard does live. It's give to the player to run with it. And being that this is game based on choice, you given the choice to decided the outcome of the moment.

Whether Shepard lives or not is your decision.

Also, the player has pleanty of time to adjust to the choices in EC. It was only a sudden ending pre ec.

But empirical evidence suggests that this does not lead to a positive response in the game playing audience. Whereas the DAO one does. And assuming we accept that a positive response from the audience is desirable, what's the difference between the two and how do you ensure that if you do use the concept it is received well.

That was with the original ending. If the ec ending was the original it would not be as negative as a responce.

[Neon Rising Winter]

leaguer of one wrote...

That was with the original ending. If the ec ending was the original it would not be as negative as a responce.

Absolutely. Proving the point that how it is presented makes a lot of difference. The acclimatising people to the idea can occur after the event too I think. I still don't think it would have been terribly popular mind you, but maybe not as far down the bad reaction scale.

[Reaverwind]

Narrow Margin wrote...

Not liking that it's open ended does no defer that fact that it's there and Shepard does live. It's give to the player to run with it. And being that this is game based on choice, you given the choice to decided the outcome of the moment.

Whether Shepard lives or not is your decision.

Also, the player has pleanty of time to adjust to the choices in EC. It was only a sudden ending pre ec.

But empirical evidence suggests that this does not lead to a positive response in the game playing audience. Whereas the DAO one does. And assuming we accept that a positive response from the audience is desirable, what's the difference between the two and how do you ensure that if you do use the concept it is received well.

DA:O's ending worked because it was well fore-shadowed and didn't come out of left field, not to mention wasn't the culmination of forced stupidity on the player's part (which you'd need to effect something like the Red Wedding - which any fool not blinded by romantic idealism would have seen coming from a mile away.)

[leaguer of one]

Narrow Margin wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

That was with the original ending. If the ec ending was the original it would not be as negative as a responce.

Absolutely. Proving the point that how it is presented makes a lot of difference. The acclimatising people to the idea can occur after the event too I think. I still don't think it would have been terribly popular mind you, but maybe not as far down the bad reaction scale.

It does not mean things like that should not be done. Just that if they are going to do it to make sure it's done well.

[Icinix]

I would be thrilled.

The last few games have felt to...afraid to offend the player...a few things like this would be fantastic.

[Neon Rising Winter]

leaguer of one wrote...
It does not mean things like that should not be done. Just that if they are going to do it to make sure it's done well.

Yes, but at some point you have to stop saying 'make sure it's done well' and look at what it is about the successful examples that makes them successful.

I believe in the case of DAO it was a combination of the game time over which the idea was presented to the player, the fact there were ways out, and also the extensive epilogue after helped (An idea the EC ending on ME3 uses to do a little salvage work). It fits into the narrative and flows with it rather than being a brick wall you slam into unexpectedly before the credits roll.

Modifié par Narrow Margin, 28 août 2013 - 10:37 .

[leaguer of one]

Narrow Margin wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
It does not mean things like that should not be done. Just that if they are going to do it to make sure it's done well.

Yes, but at some point you have to stop saying 'make sure it's done well' and look at what it is about the successful examples that makes them successful.

I believe in the case of DAO it was a combination of the game time over which the idea was presented to the player, the fact there were ways out, and also the extensive epilogue after helped (An idea the EC ending on ME3 uses to do a little salvage work). It fits into the narrative and flows with it rather than being a brick wall you slam into unexpectedly before the credits roll.

Agein , that was with the original ending of ME3.  Reguardless, this arguement is at an impass. It's just stuck at making sure it's done well.

[Neon Rising Winter]

leaguer of one wrote...
Agein , that was with the original ending of ME3.  Reguardless, this arguement is at an impass. It's just stuck at making sure it's done well.

Fair enough!

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Only if it kills all the potential waifus/husbandos.

The rage would be magnificent.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I don't know. I doubt it would be done well, so I'd probably hate it.

[Mashiro Yuki]

Icinix wrote...

I would be thrilled.

The last few games have felt to...afraid to offend the player...a few things like this would be fantastic.

I'm not really paying much attention to the thread, but I'm glad I read that. Not just for Bioware. For games in general. Devs are too afraid of offending people. 

I wanna see more games that are willing to push things. Not just for the sake of shock, but because they really think they can tell a great story. 

[llandwynwyn]

GRRM killed my favorite character there and I still loved the RW, so, as long as Bioware does it right I'll have no problems with it.


Just don't do it to Carver.

Or the Warden/Hawke.

[DarthLaxian]

N7recruit wrote...

 Honestly I'd love it if they had the Balls to do somthing like this:lol:. Not without having a VERY, VERY strong reason mind you or Just cuz

"Hey guys! You know the cast we spent the last  2 years writing? You Know! The Characters the players are now emiotionally attached to after 30hours of gameplay? Call me sadistic but... how about we kill them all off in the most Brutal & horrific way possible! Something like in Game of Thrones? I'm sure the fans would love us after that!!  Yeah Lets do it!:police:" 

It would suck sure, but the reaction on the BSN would be worth it IMO:lol:

 

that's just plain sadistic IMHO (and would not find fan approval - it would not find mine (and i like/love game of thrones - but then again, i don't play that, i just read the books (and watch the tv-show sometimes) and i am not as invested as into a game-series (hell that's mass effect like and feels like being punched and then spit in the face IMHO 

please do not even consider it (even more: who would build up characters carefully over a long time just to kille them?...i as a writer would not work hard on a character that i know will die soon anyway (meaning the quality of writing might suffer, too!))

greetings LAX

[Neon Rising Winter]

We're all assuming here that the carefully orchestrated bloodbath is perpetrated by someone else. Is it just me who'd like the chance to be the mastermind behind an event like this? Forget personally hacking them to pieces for once and instead manoeuvre a chunk of your enemies into an event which culminates in a cold blooded massacre. (Just for clarity, I mean more mundane enemies. I am not suggesting the Darkspawn and Demon Annual Ball)

[leaguer of one]

Narrow Margin wrote...

We're all assuming here that the carefully orchestrated bloodbath is perpetrated by someone else. Is it just me who'd like the chance to be the mastermind behind an event like this? Forget personally hacking them to pieces for once and instead manoeuvre a chunk of your enemies into an event which culminates in a cold blooded massacre. (Just for clarity, I mean more mundane enemies. I am not suggesting the Darkspawn and Demon Annual Ball)

So make it like  the Orzammar king choosing missions in DAO......

I aproove.

[Cainhurst Crow]

llandwynwyn wrote...

GRRM killed my favorite character there and I still loved the RW, so, as long as Bioware does it right I'll have no problems with it.


Just don't do it to Carver.

Or the Warden/Hawke.

Hawke will kill warden and carver, before being killed by flemeth, who than kills the inquisitors entire party, before killing the player characters as well.

End credits.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

llandwynwyn wrote...

GRRM killed my favorite character there and I still loved the RW, so, as long as Bioware does it right I'll have no problems with it.


Just don't do it to Carver.

Or the Warden/Hawke.

Hawke will kill warden and carver, before being killed by flemeth, who than kills the inquisitors entire party, before killing the player characters as well.

End credits.

Still a better ending than ME3.

[leaguer of one]

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

llandwynwyn wrote...

GRRM killed my favorite character there and I still loved the RW, so, as long as Bioware does it right I'll have no problems with it.


Just don't do it to Carver.

Or the Warden/Hawke.

Hawke will kill warden and carver, before being killed by flemeth, who than kills the inquisitors entire party, before killing the player characters as well.

End credits.

Still a better ending than ME3.

Better ending then Gundam Zeta.

[Cainhurst Crow]

leaguer of one wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

llandwynwyn wrote...

GRRM killed my favorite character there and I still loved the RW, so, as long as Bioware does it right I'll have no problems with it.


Just don't do it to Carver.

Or the Warden/Hawke.

Hawke will kill warden and carver, before being killed by flemeth, who than kills the inquisitors entire party, before killing the player characters as well.

End credits.

Still a better ending than ME3.

Better ending then Gundam Zeta.

And these are the guys you want to try and pull off a red wedding scenario?

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 28 août 2013 - 11:49 .

[leaguer of one]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

llandwynwyn wrote...

GRRM killed my favorite character there and I still loved the RW, so, as long as Bioware does it right I'll have no problems with it.


Just don't do it to Carver.

Or the Warden/Hawke.

Hawke will kill warden and carver, before being killed by flemeth, who than kills the inquisitors entire party, before killing the player characters as well.

End credits.

Still a better ending than ME3.

Better ending then Gundam Zeta.

And these are the guys you want to try and pull off a red wedding scenario?

Being that they made the Alianage Elf , Dwarf noble, and Noble human origins... Yes.