7827 réponses à ce sujet

[Andraste_Reborn]

But the Keep allows people to make decisions about what happened in DAO and DA2 without buying those, either. Why on earth should the DLC be treated differently?

[Naesaki]

But the Keep allows people to make decisions about what happened in DAO and DA2 without buying those, either. Why on earth should the DLC be treated differently?

Exactly this! *gives Andraste_Reborn, some cake* 

[NRieh]

 

So to you, the value of actually playing through the DLC content itself is zero - you only care about the world state repercussions for future games?

No need to put words into my mouth, ok?  

I never said that DLCs have zero value on their own, but world state variables ARE important. If they are not, why even bothering with saves, imports and Keep? 

The very ability to have some sort of desired consequences is also a part of DLC.   

 

Imagine, that one can only get an invitation to the ball as a reward for some efforts. The job might be nice and interesting, etc. But it's still a job. And that's the only way to get an invitation. No other legal ways. Then the time comes, and one discovers, that no invitations were needed. One may still get it as a reward, but one also gets it by filling a form.

 

 

But the Keep allows people to make decisions about what happened in DAO and DA2 without buying those, either. Why on earth should the DLC be treated differently?

Which, as I had already said before is also not a good thing.  Because it actually spoils all the previous content for the new players. It's like watching SW episodes in '123456' order. Even if one watches it for the first time - no more epicness and surprise in 'Luke, I'm your father' ep5 moment.  

Plus it's  just unfair. It's like legalizing DLC hacks and editing flags in save editors.  

 

I don't see a problem, by the way. Those who play their 'preset' worlds for the first time ever do not get their spoilers and are encouraged to find out more. Those who have played the games and own DLCs still have their precioussss variables. 

[AlexJK]

Imagine, that one can only get an invitation to the ball as a reward for some efforts. The job might be nice and interesting, etc. But it's still a job. And that's the only way to get an invitation. No other legal ways. Then the time comes, and one discovers, that no invitations were needed. One may still get it as a reward, but one also gets it by filling a form.

This isn't a similar situation. Playing through DLC isn't supposed to be work (your words: "it's still a job"), it's an enjoyable gaming experience. If you don't want that experience, fine - just fill in the form and go to the ball without doing the fun thing first.

(Let's not ignore the fact that this is an unusual situation, too - the Keep is a new thing that will have benefit for everyone; experienced players with 100 savegames, casual players who've lost their saves, and new players who've never played previous content. It's certainly in Bioware's best interest for as many people as possible to have access to as many different options for playing DAI as it's possible to give them. In the future, will players be able to enter world state settings for DAI into the Keep? Possibly not! So you may still get your wish.)
 

It's like watching SW episodes in '123456' order. Even if one watches it for the first time - no more epicness and surprise in 'Luke, I'm your father' ep5 moment.

And if people choose to do that, it's up to them - how does it affect you? The order that the Star Wars films were made in is no secret, neither is it impossible for new players to pick up a copy of DAO, DA2, and the DLC - if they want to.
 

Plus it's  just unfair. It's like legalizing DLC hacks and editing flags in save editors.

Editing save games isn't illegal AFAIK... And also; unfair to who? Who is losing out? Nobody. You have paid for the experience of playing DAO/DA2/DLC/etc. A new player who didn't pick those games up at the time is being inducted into the DA series in a fun way, showing them the kind of options that Dragon Age gameplay allows. Good for everyone!

[Beerfish]

Player B can not pay for any DLC, come on to these forums and discuss every single aspect of it, find out all about it, find out how everyone handled each plot point.  If you are worried about Player B getting something they are not entitled to as far as world state goes then they have to be limited on these forums as well no?

 

Also the benefits of limiting for some people are far outweighed by the hassle to set things up to check game ownership vs entitlement.

[Zatche]

Also the benefits of limiting for some people are far outweighed by the hassle to set things up to check game ownership vs entitlement.

Yup. I don't see many people going back and purchasing DLC just so they can make more choices in the Keep. I'm willing to bet Bioware sees it the same way. I'm sure they're also aware of frustration people might have if there are people who legitimately purchased DLC but somehow lost access to it or something of the sort.

And it's not like people who didn't purchase DLC but still make choices in the Keep for the content will get the same experience as those who actually played it.

[Gold Dragon]

Remember Mass Effect: Genesis?  I'm getting a stromg feeling that the Keep will be something similar.

 

ME: G was a little interactive Short Story about Mass Effect (First game) that was brought about due to the fact that ME wasn't available on Playstation Consoles.  Genesis 2 was created for the same reason with ME 3.

 

Presentation will be different, obviously, but I suspect that the basic premise will be the same.

[PSUHammer]

Not  exactly.

 

Player 1  buys DLC - player gets his DLC experience + gets the further content related to the DLC, Normally it can ONLY be available via buying&playing (either this or hacking saves).

Player 2 never had any DLCs. He never got his DLC experience - fine by me, yet he can have now something, that other players had payed for ( and still have to pay). For free.  

 

Both pay same money for DAI, but one of them had to pay more for the same content.

E.g. you need to side with the Architect to see the consequences. But you might as well just put a tick.

 

I think it's fair to limit the DLC variables with some preset values for those who never played them. Pretty much same as non-import PT in DA2.  Yes, some stuff happened, but you can't alter it.

 

Of course it should not be done ME3 way, where fresh default ME3 run has all possible 'worst-case scenario' flags, it literally punishes you gameplay-wise, in very many ways. Even if that's 123 import with no ME2 DLCs, there is a noticeable TMS penalty.  

 

Are you kidding me?  Why would you even worry about this?

 

The mob is fickle...

[Zatche]

Remember Mass Effect: Genesis?  I'm getting a stromg feeling that the Keep will be something similar.

 

ME: G was a little interactive Short Story about Mass Effect (First game) that was brought about due to the fact that ME wasn't available on Playstation Consoles.  Genesis 2 was created for the same reason with ME 3.

 

Presentation will be different, obviously, but I suspect that the basic premise will be the same.

 

From what we've been told (I believe the words 'hundreds of decisions' were thrown out there'), and from how much resources and effort they seem to be putting into its development, it should be a lot more extensive than Genesis.

[Mirdarion]

From what we've been told (I believe the words 'hundreds of decisions' were thrown out there'), and from how much resources and effort they seem to be putting into its development, it should be a lot more extensive than Genesis.

 

Well, they stated that the Keep will provide background information for new players. That means that there will be some kind of codex (perhaps voiced?) and if Dragon Age: Origins is kept in mind there will be LOTS of text. Additionally I bet my arse that the Keep will go online at least a month before Inquisition and contain minigames and the like. So yes, it will definitely be more than Genesis.

[ElitePinecone]

I can imagine there will be first question: Have you played any of previous games? And if you choose no, the Keep will probably let you tick a lot less and it would be more like a half default state. More for learning about the lore and basic history than getting trough the games. That's what I'm expecting from it.

 

I think there'll be a certain element of explaining the story for people that haven't played the previous games.

 

The Keep isn't just a bunch of boxes to tick, there's more to it than that.

[ElitePinecone]

Not  exactly.

 

Player 1  buys DLC - player gets his DLC experience + gets the further content related to the DLC, Normally it can ONLY be available via buying&playing (either this or hacking saves).

Player 2 never had any DLCs. He never got his DLC experience - fine by me, yet he can have now something, that other players had payed for ( and still have to pay). For free.  

 

Both pay same money for DAI, but one of them had to pay more for the same content.

E.g. you need to side with the Architect to see the consequences. But you might as well just put a tick.

 

I think it's fair to limit the DLC variables with some preset values for those who never played them. Pretty much same as non-import PT in DA2.  Yes, some stuff happened, but you can't alter it.

 

Of course it should not be done ME3 way, where fresh default ME3 run has all possible 'worst-case scenario' flags, it literally punishes you gameplay-wise, in very many ways. Even if that's 123 import with no ME2 DLCs, there is a noticeable TMS penalty.  

 

Sorry, but this is ridiculous. Buy and play games because you enjoy them, not because you expect there'll be a save import in two years' time. The value of a game is in its actual content, not in whatever you think its save file can be used for down the line.

 

And how on earth is it unfair if people who didn't play DLC still get DLC story options in the Keep? Does it affect you in any way? If your time playing the DLC is seriously devalued by other people having the option to set plot flags, you really need to get some perspective. 

[NRieh]

 

The value of a game is in its actual content

All the plot flags ARE DLC actual content, you know. They belong to DLC. One can't have Warden king\queen without playing DAO. One can't side with Architect without playing DAA. One can't help Liara T'Soni to become a Shadow Broker without LOtSB or meet Kasumi with no SM. Each flag is a part of it's respective DLC.  

 

 

If your time playing the DLC is seriously devalued...

Lets put it simple. It's not about my time. It's about my money. People get for free part of content that costed me my BW points. The content, that currently can ONLY be accessed by paying and playing ( this, or hacking).  Why should I be so happy about it?  

 

As I said - I understand that in time many DLCs become cheaper or even free. Games become cheaper too. That's not the case.

[NRieh]

 

Remember Mass Effect: Genesis?  I'm getting a stromg feeling that the Keep will be something similar.

ME: Genesis was meant for those who had no access to the previous games on PS.

If you ask me, ME Genesis did not do any good. Spoiled Virmire was a great disservice, and that's what is going to happen to many new DA players.

Before they even realize, that it ruins their actual gaming experience.

 

Unless the devs had already thought about it, and all the Keep writing for the 'fresh' players is actually subtle and spoiler-free. Hopefully, that's  how it will be.

[Loremaster Nick]

All the plot flags ARE DLC actual content, you know. They belong to DLC. One can't have Warden king\queen without playing DAO. One can't side with Architect without playing DAA. One can't help Liara T'Soni to become a Shadow Broker without LOtSB or meet Kasumi with no SM. Each flag is a part of it's respective DLC.  

 

Lets put it simple. It's not about my time. It's about my money. People get for free part of content that costed me my BW points. The content, that currently can ONLY be accessed by paying and playing ( this, or hacking).  Why should I be so happy about it?  

 

As I said - I understand that in time many DLCs become cheaper or even free. Games become cheaper too. That's not the case.

What you pay for is the content you experience in the game, not some eventual impact it may or may not have on future products in the series.

[Naesaki]

What you pay for is the content you experience in the game, not some eventual impact it may or may not have on future products in the series.

I agree with what you've said Loremaster Nick, but I feel like we're going to end up in a never ending argument with Nrieh :<

 

 

Really can't wait for an open beta version of The Keep, so everyone's fears and worries can be put to rest, can just picture the current beta testers in the background giggling away because they can't tell us anything due to NDA, but they know everything we don't T___T

[AlexJK]

Lets put it simple. It's not about my time. It's about my money. People get for free part of content that costed me my BW points. The content, that currently can ONLY be accessed by paying and playing ( this, or hacking).  Why should I be so happy about it?

They are NOT getting the experience you paid for.
 

As I said - I understand that in time many DLCs become cheaper or even free. Games become cheaper too. That's not the case.

Well, yes it is actually. Bioware have decided that the value of the previous games/DLC has now dropped to such a point that they are prepared to give the plot flags away for free. Bam, problem solved, right?

Spoiled Virmire was a great disservice, and that's what is going to happen to many new DA players.Before they even realize, that it ruins their actual gaming experience. Unless the devs had already thought about it, and all the Keep writing for the 'fresh' players is actually subtle and spoiler-free. Hopefully, that's  how it will be.

How does deciding on the plot events from DAO spoil DAI, any more than having played DAO does? Please explain.

[NRieh]

 

What you pay for is the content you experience in the game

But it IS 'the content I experience in the game'! Big and small. Warden-Queen and Nathaniel. it's not something that I see on a site or read in a book, you know.

 

If nothing is ever going to change the world-state, then what's the point in bothering with the Keep? Note, that I'm not saying that each and every variable should bу mandatory carried on throughout the series and involved into epic quests. I'm just pointing out, that with DA word 'content' stretches far beyond the in-game screen, especially now, when the Keep project is about to be released. 

[NRieh]

 

How does deciding on the plot events from DAO spoil DAI

I never said it does. Deciding on the plot events from DAO spoils DAO. Same as deciding on plot flags from DA2 spoils DA2.  The degree may vary depending on  the writing, but it's still there.

 

New player that is offered to put ticks for killing Flemmeth,  performing DR and making Alistair King inevitably misses a lot of fun and surprises on their DAO run (if they ever decide to play it).  Same goes for Isabela's fate in the end of act 2 and helping Anders with his quests.   

[Vapaa]

I never said it does. Deciding on the plot events from DAO spoils DAO. Same as deciding on plot flags from DA2 spoils DA2.  The degree may vary depending on  the writing, but it's still there.

 

New player that is offered to put ticks for killing Flemmeth,  performing DR and making Alistair King inevitably misses a lot of fun and surprises on their DAO run (if they ever decide to play it).  Same goes for Isabela's fate in the end of act 2 and helping Anders with his quests.   

 

Then they should just play DAO and DA2, duh.

[Loremaster Nick]

But it IS 'the content I experience in the game'! Big and small. Warden-Queen and Nathaniel. it's not something that I see on a site or read in a book, you know.

 

If nothing is ever going to change the world-state, then what's the point in bothering with the Keep? Note, that I'm not saying that each and every variable should bу mandatory carried on throughout the series and involved into epic quests. I'm just pointing out, that with DA word 'content' stretches far beyond the in-game screen, especially now, when the Keep project is about to be released. 

I assume you enjoyed the various plot lines you experienced in the game that they took place in, at least to an extent. How does someone else being able to experience the game they purchase to it's fullest extent damage your experience or make the time and money you spent less valuable? You got to actually play through the various DLCs and experience the locations, story and dialogue that surround them.

[Loremaster Nick]

I never said it does. Deciding on the plot events from DAO spoils DAO. Same as deciding on plot flags from DA2 spoils DA2.  The degree may vary depending on  the writing, but it's still there.

 

New player that is offered to put ticks for killing Flemmeth,  performing DR and making Alistair King inevitably misses a lot of fun and surprises on their DAO run (if they ever decide to play it).  Same goes for Isabela's fate in the end of act 2 and helping Anders with his quests.   

Dragon Age: Origins came out in 2009 and there are still over 6 months to the release of Inquisition, so if one had an interest in getting acquainted with the earlier games in the series they have had and still have plenty of time.

[ReadingRambo220]

All the plot flags ARE DLC actual content, you know. They belong to DLC. One can't have Warden king\queen without playing DAO. One can't side with Architect without playing DAA. One can't help Liara T'Soni to become a Shadow Broker without LOtSB or meet Kasumi with no SM. Each flag is a part of it's respective DLC.


Lets put it simple. It's not about my time. It's about my money. People get for free part of content that costed me my BW points. The content, that currently can ONLY be accessed by paying and playing ( this, or hacking). Why should I be so happy about it?

As I said - I understand that in time many DLCs become cheaper or even free. Games become cheaper too. That's not the case.

Here's an example I thought of that might make sense to you. Lets say two people bought season three of (insert favorite TV show here), one having never seen season 1 and 2, while the other owns 1 and 2.

The person who owns all of the seasons got to enjoy all the dramatic tense moments in the first two seasons. The other person read about them, or had a friend explain what was going on, but didnt get to watch them.

What you are demanding is that the person that bought season 3 without viewing 1 or 2 shouldn't be allowed to read any wiki or plot summary of the first two seasons. In addition, they removed an episode and several scenes from his copy of season 3, because he didnt own the first 2.


You are paying for the pleasure of watching the first two seasons, not for the knowledge of what happened in those seasons.

As for spoilers, I once read an article that discussed a study on the nature of spoilers. The conclusion was that someone who was spoiled about events was not any less entertained watching the actual event, even with prior knowledge of what was going to happen.

Much of entertainment comes from watching events unfold. If you have ever persuaded a skeptic friend "Man, I can't explain it, just watch it." After watching the skeptic friend agrees that it was awesome, then this is an example.

[Champion1]

I never said it does. Deciding on the plot events from DAO spoils DAO. Same as deciding on plot flags from DA2 spoils DA2.  The degree may vary depending on  the writing, but it's still there.

 

New player that is offered to put ticks for killing Flemmeth,  performing DR and making Alistair King inevitably misses a lot of fun and surprises on their DAO run (if they ever decide to play it).  Same goes for Isabela's fate in the end of act 2 and helping Anders with his quests.   

Honestly, if you're worried about spoilers for the first two games, you shouldn't use the Keep and just go straight into DAI with the default canon.  Otherwise the Keep is pretty pointless.  "Did you do the Dark Ritual?" "What's the Dark Ritual?" "Can't tell you, spoilers." "Okay, so what does it do?" "Can't tell you, spoilers."  It completely strips the value of the Keep because you don't want to be spoiled on previous events.  Someone new to DA can't make a real decision without knowing what's going on.  If they want the experience of the first two games, they should play them.  If not, they can't expect to use the Keep to make their ideal history without being told a good deal of that history.  It's practically parodoxical. 

[MrMrPendragon]

I see there's a bit of an argument about DLCs.

 

Well to me, buying a DLC for 10 dollars means two things:

 

1. You want to play the DLC and see what's in it.

 

2. Since this is DA, buying the DLC also means you don't want to miss anything. If you're really into the story, you want to build a world that's as perfect as possible, and that means buying most, if not all, the DLCs so you don't miss some content on future games.

 

Now, in introducing the Keep, reason #2 is pretty much off the list from here on in since you won't miss the opportunity to build a better world state. So if you bought any previous DLCs with reason #2 in mind, you would feel a bit cheated since you bought the "opportunity" to build a better world state, while others got that "opportunity" free.

 

But if you have both reason#1 and #2 in mind, then you shouldn't feel cheated on, because you wanted that DLC and you paid for it. Others didn't get to experience what you experienced, so that's your one-up on them. They could look up gameplay videos of that DLC on youtube, but you still played it. They didn't.