56 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

point being: forcing people to accept one of the endings for a sequel is just going to p*ss off folks.

[AlanC9]

SilJeff wrote...

There is no way they'd include fanfiction (no matter how good it may or may not be) like MEHEM, MEEM, etc in ME4.

Bioware didn't make those endings

True, but they don't need to explicitly acknowledge those endings. They just need to not make them impossible.

Let's say Bio canonizes a high-EMS playthrough with the geth destroyed at Rannoch (because Shepard botched Tali's LM or something; doens't matter how). There's no way to tell Destroy from MEHEM under those conditions, IIRC. MEHEM fans can pretend MEHEM happened to that Shepard, everone else, including Bioware, can just not care what the MEHEM fans think.

If -- big if -- ME4 accomodates all the different endings with a Keep-like approach, the player could do this himself. Theoretically a player could also make the geth alive in Destroy depending on how ME4 handles such variables, though obviously Bio's own tools wouldn't let you set up incoherent variable states, so yo'd need a thrid-party editor. And incoherent variable states would certainly result in incoherent dialogue and Codex entries, but that's the MEHEM fans' problem rather than ours.

Don't know about MEEM. Any idea what the plot points were?

Modifié par AlanC9, 29 août 2013 - 05:00 .

[mupp3tz]

I still think that if they went the future route they'll just reduce a lot of the plot points into "BUT SOMEHOW, so and so was able to rise up again even though everyone thought they were destroyed" or "We don't know how it's possible, but not everyone was synthesized.." etc. If they space it out enough, I'm sure they'll find a way to funnel it all into where they want.

I am also expecting Protheans. Somehow.

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

point being: forcing people to accept one of the endings for a sequel is just going to p*ss off folks.

So is not going with one of the endings. They need to do what they think makes for the best story, and that's about it in my opinion.

[Mcfly616]

iakus wrote...

point being: forcing people to accept one of the endings for a sequel is just going to p*ss off folks.

well, if they end up doing a Genesis for the next game, where you let the game know what ME3 ending you chose, then you wouldn't be forcing people to accept "one" of the endings. Bioware would literally be letting you choose your ending out of the 3.

[MegaSovereign]

They're probably only doing this because DA:I is cross-generational. The next gen versions of the game would look inferior in terms of content if only the current gen versions had decision importing.

iakus wrote...

point being: forcing people to accept one of the endings for a sequel is just going to p*ss off folks.

You're implying that the ending isn't already canon...

[Azaron Nightblade]

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

point being: forcing people to accept one of the endings for a sequel is just going to p*ss off folks.

So is not going with one of the endings. They need to do what they think makes for the best story, and that's about it in my opinion.

If they end up picking one I imagine it would be the destroy ending.
Synthesis seems like too much of a Utopia to use as a setting, then again, if the plot revolves around that utopia falling apart...
Uber Reaper Shepard ending also doesn't seem very likely, since it would effectively mean the galaxy has a whole host of godlike beings watching over them.
Everything wiped out and the cycle keeps repeating itself is possible... the Reapers wouldn't even have to be the enemy if it takes place a few thousand years later rather than 50 000 - but it also seems unlikely since that would mean Shepard and everything he's done might as well have never happened. 

[Mcfly616]

Azaron Nightblade wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

iakus wrote...

point being: forcing people to accept one of the endings for a sequel is just going to p*ss off folks.

So is not going with one of the endings. They need to do what they think makes for the best story, and that's about it in my opinion.

If they end up picking one I imagine it would be the destroy ending.
Synthesis seems like too much of a Utopia to use as a setting, then again, if the plot revolves around that utopia falling apart...
Uber Reaper Shepard ending also doesn't seem very likely, since it would effectively mean the galaxy has a whole host of godlike beings watching over them.
Everything wiped out and the cycle keeps repeating itself is possible... the Reapers wouldn't even have to be the enemy if it takes place a few thousand years later rather than 50 000 - but it also seems unlikely since that would mean Shepard and everything he's done might as well have never happened. 

its not like criminals and mercs are done away with because of Synthesis. People will still have motivations and ambitions.

And in Control, the Reapers are galactic guardians. I don't think they'd involve themselves unless the entire galaxy was threatened and on the verge of another large scale war. They wouldn't take an interest in the everyday lives of the citizens of the Galaxy.

[SilJeff]

AlanC9 wrote...

SilJeff wrote...

There is no way they'd include fanfiction (no matter how good it may or may not be) like MEHEM, MEEM, etc in ME4.

Bioware didn't make those endings

True, but they don't need to explicitly acknowledge those endings. They just need to not make them impossible.

Let's say Bio canonizes a high-EMS playthrough with the geth destroyed at Rannoch (because Shepard botched Tali's LM or something; doens't matter how). There's no way to tell Destroy from MEHEM under those conditions, IIRC. MEHEM fans can pretend MEHEM happened to that Shepard, everone else, including Bioware, can just not care what the MEHEM fans think.

If -- big if -- ME4 accomodates all the different endings with a Keep-like approach, the player could do this himself. Theoretically a player could also make the geth alive in Destroy depending on how ME4 handles such variables, though obviously Bio's own tools wouldn't let you set up incoherent variable states, so yo'd need a thrid-party editor. And incoherent variable states would certainly result in incoherent dialogue and Codex entries, but that's the MEHEM fans' problem rather than ours.

Don't know about MEEM. Any idea what the plot points were?

To be honest, I know nothing about MEEM except it came out before MEHEM, I need to youtube it. (I admit, if I had a gaming PC and ME for it, I'd probably have MEHEM installed on it because I do like that ending. I just am fine with Paragon Control and am okay seeing it on the Xbox 360 and PS3, but that doesn't mean I don't approve of MEHEM)

I agree that ME4 should not be "you chose X ending [or X ending is the canon ending and the others are retconed], so you will be seeing reapercussions of it the whole game". Keep it quick/simple and do what you said.

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

Don't know about MEEM. Any idea what the plot points were?

Long story short:  It's a rewriting of the Catalyst conversation to be more in line with the "dark energy" ending concept.

Predates MEHEM

[Iakus]

Mcfly616 wrote...

iakus wrote...

point being: forcing people to accept one of the endings for a sequel is just going to p*ss off folks.

well, if they end up doing a Genesis for the next game, where you let the game know what ME3 ending you chose, then you wouldn't be forcing people to accept "one" of the endings. Bioware would literally be letting you choose your ending out of the 3.

Not "one ending" but still "one of the endings" which is hardly better.

Anything more detailed than "the Reapers were stopped by Commander Shepard" is destined for outrage.

[Mcfly616]

iakus wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

iakus wrote...

point being: forcing people to accept one of the endings for a sequel is just going to p*ss off folks.

well, if they end up doing a Genesis for the next game, where you let the game know what ME3 ending you chose, then you wouldn't be forcing people to accept "one" of the endings. Bioware would literally be letting you choose your ending out of the 3.

Not "one ending" but still "one of the endings" which is hardly better.

Anything more detailed than "the Reapers were stopped by Commander Shepard" is destined for outrage.

maybe you misunderstood? I'm saying that if the next game provides an option to import your ME3 ending choice via a Genesis comic.....then there shouldnt be a problem. Everybody has their ending choice carried over. Nothing to mad about, because you're playing the game in the setting you provided at the end of ME3.

I don't want an ending canonized either. But if they provide the option to import the choice, then that's not canonizing anything.


And considering Commander Shepard stops the Reapers in all 3 endings, there shouldn't be any outrage.

Modifié par Mcfly616, 30 août 2013 - 08:11 .

[AsheraII]

Rusted Cage wrote...

That's a nice idea Ashera but might it not alienate new-comers to the franchise? I know quite a few people who have been inspired after playing ME3 to play the previous games, which I think is great, but I'm not sure I'd like the idea of missing out on cool content if it was me.

First of all, it's an acknowledgement of longtime fans of a serie. With that the developers give fans the signal "Hey, we know you're a fan, we appreciate your dedication, here's something for all your effort".

Second, it makes the time you spent in the previous games meaningful. If you could pick every single detail of your previous playthroughs through some convenient quick interface before starting on your next game, then why bother finishing the new game? When things get a little hard, you can simply decide "meh, I'll quit and on the next game I'll just make decisions without having to do the work of going through all these challenges". It makes players lazy and each game itself obsolete. Convenience is a double edged sword, and I think a developer has to be careful balancing which way it cuts. If it allows for too much laziness from the player, the player can even decide not to buy or play some games at all, and opt for making the decisions from that game entirely outside the game.

Third, there's the new players, ofcourse. They can play new games entirely without the bonus content, but if they enjoy the segment they do have access to, they'll be encouraged to also get the previous games. Games that will have had their prices reduced a lot by then, as old games generally see their price reduced over time. Some 4 or 5 years after release, a computergame rarely costs more than the avarage DLC. A very affordable and rewarding means to investigate deeper into the history and background of their new game.


Now ofcourse, effects won't carry over indefinitely, that would cause the development cost of new games ramp up indefinitely. But having effects and aftermath of some unique decisions last for upto 2-3 games after they were made should be managable.
Ofcourse, that'd be at the developers discretion. I could certainly imagine a Mass Effect 8 game where the player visits Tuchanka and runs into a statue of some Krogan. If the player played ME1 and let Wrex live and ended the Genophage in ME3, it'd be a statue of him, for everybody else it'd be a statue of Wreav instead. A really small and simple gesture from the developers, telling the dedicated players "I know what you did back then!".

So whatever the effect of those things that only actual players have acces to, it'd be mostly fluff. Meaningful fluff to them, but in no way required for the storyline of the new game.
A completely optional and redundant (yet interresting) crewmember, a sidemission that rewards a piece of equipment that's only cosmetically different from something available to other players, a statue that does absolutely nothing. Meaningful fluff.

[AlanC9]

AsheraII wrote...
Second, it makes the time you spent in the previous games meaningful. If you could pick every single detail of your previous playthroughs through some convenient quick interface before starting on your next game, then why bother finishing the new game? When things get a little hard, you can simply decide "meh, I'll quit and on the next game I'll just make decisions without having to do the work of going through all these challenges". It makes players lazy and each game itself obsolete. Convenience is a double edged sword, and I think a developer has to be careful balancing which way it cuts. If it allows for too much laziness from the player, the player can even decide not to buy or play some games at all, and opt for making the decisions from that game entirely outside the game.

Are you saying that you would quit and move on to the next game? Or that you don't like other players quitting and moving on to the next game? 

[Iakus]

Mcfly616 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

iakus wrote...

point being: forcing people to accept one of the endings for a sequel is just going to p*ss off folks.

well, if they end up doing a Genesis for the next game, where you let the game know what ME3 ending you chose, then you wouldn't be forcing people to accept "one" of the endings. Bioware would literally be letting you choose your ending out of the 3.

Not "one ending" but still "one of the endings" which is hardly better.

Anything more detailed than "the Reapers were stopped by Commander Shepard" is destined for outrage.

maybe you misunderstood? I'm saying that if the next game provides an option to import your ME3 ending choice via a Genesis comic.....then there shouldnt be a problem. Everybody has their ending choice carried over. Nothing to mad about, because you're playing the game in the setting you provided at the end of ME3.

I don't want an ending canonized either. But if they provide the option to import the choice, then that's not canonizing anything.


And considering Commander Shepard stops the Reapers in all 3 endings, there shouldn't be any outrage.

The problem comes when the players reject all three endings and created their own:  the IT crowd, MEHEM, or those who end their game with the Citadel party.  The ones who chose to end the game more on their own terms.

By telling them that these endings are no longer valid, that they have to choose an "official ending", which they hate, will not sit well with them.  They are not getting their ending choice carried over.  

That's why I say having any more detail than the fact that Commander Shepard stopped the Reapers will cause a stir:  High EMS Destroy is still not MEHEM, or IT.  And I doubt "Citadel Party" or "turned off console" will be an ending choice.   

Providing a chocie between the three endings may not canonize one in particular, but it still invalidates any number of personal headcanons, theories, and personal endings that made the ending bearable to any number of players.

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...
That's why I say having any more detail than the fact that Commander Shepard stopped the Reapers will cause a stir:  High EMS Destroy is still not MEHEM, or IT.  And I doubt "Citadel Party" or "turned off console" will be an ending choice.   

Even that won't work for the Choose Wisely crowd -- as near as I can figure, their position is that everything all the way back to Ilos is unreal, and apparently the Reapers were never stopped. Though since I find their videos too boring to sit through, I may not be getting their position right.

Modifié par AlanC9, 30 août 2013 - 07:19 .

[Mcfly616]

iakus wrote...

The problem comes when the players reject all three endings and created their own:  the IT crowd, MEHEM, or those who end their game with the Citadel party.  The ones who chose to end the game more on their own terms.

By telling them that these endings are no longer valid, that they have to choose an "official ending", which they hate, will not sit well with them.  They are not getting their ending choice carried over.  

That's why I say having any more detail than the fact that Commander Shepard stopped the Reapers will cause a stir:  High EMS Destroy is still not MEHEM, or IT.  And I doubt "Citadel Party" or "turned off console" will be an ending choice.   

Providing a chocie between the three endings may not canonize one in particular, but it still invalidates any number of personal headcanons, theories, and personal endings that made the ending bearable to any number of players.

so what? As you said, MEHEM isn't one of the legitimate endings provided by the game. It is literally a fan mod and nothing more. Bioware has nothing to do with it whatsoever. They have no obligation to abide by it either. (And let's be honest, if they don't account for MEHEM, the outrage will be quite minimal.)


They have no attachment/allegiance or responsibility to any ending but the ones they put into the game.

Modifié par Mcfly616, 30 août 2013 - 10:42 .

[Iakus]

Mcfly616 wrote...
so what? As you said, MEHEM isn't one of the legitimate endings provided by the game. It is literally a fan mod and nothing more. Bioware has nothing to do with it whatsoever. They have no obligation to abide by it either. (And let's be honest, if they don't account for MEHEM, the outrage will be quite minimal.)


They have no attachment/allegiance or responsibility to any ending but the ones they put into the game.

No, they don't have to care about what their audience thinks.  But that attitude is what caused this stink to begin with.

If they choose to ram RGB down layers throat yet again, they are free to do so.  And people will be p*ssed at them for it, yet again.  That's all I'm saying.

[MegaSovereign]

AlanC9 wrote...

Even that won't work for the Choose Wisely crowd -- as near as I can figure, their position is that everything all the way back to Ilos is unreal, and apparently the Reapers were never stopped. Though since I find their videos too boring to sit through, I may not be getting their position right.

I thought it was about how Shepard's entire experience is a Leviathan illusion? 

It's sounds incredibly asinine....and I seriously doubt Bioware will write around all these theories and fan mods when their supporters/users are a collective minority. (Not that they should regardless of the population. Fans seriously shouldn't presume authority over the narrative.)

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 30 août 2013 - 11:03 .

[rashie]

Mcfly616 wrote...

iakus wrote...

point being: forcing people to accept one of the endings for a sequel is just going to p*ss off folks.

well, if they end up doing a Genesis for the next game, where you let the game know what ME3 ending you chose, then you wouldn't be forcing people to accept "one" of the endings. Bioware would literally be letting you choose your ending out of the 3.

Its not that easy as just letting people pick it in a genesis comic, all 3 endings have vastly different impacts upon the future of the galaxy, i.e if control is chosen the reapers helps rebuilding to serve as the protectorers of the galaxy afterwards and is not really a good point to go off from if you want closure with them since they are present everywhere but with Shepard being the new catalyst mastermind keeping them in check.

Synthesis involved pretty much every single organic being half machine half organic while destroy lacks the enhancements to npcs and characters that would bring in terms of combat and intelligence, They would have impacts beyond some dialogue changing or certain npc's being switched out with others or not being there at all which makes crafting a coherent storyline far harder. 

It would be far easier for Bioware to just retcon the existence of 3 out of the 4 options and just go from there if they want to distance themselves from the original trilogy and let shepard rest in peace.

They have painted themselves into a corner with the endings players are being given to pick between if they planned to do a sequel without simply ignoring story elements ( would not be the first time though )

Modifié par rashie, 30 août 2013 - 11:15 .

[Mcfly616]

rashie wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

iakus wrote...

point being: forcing people to accept one of the endings for a sequel is just going to p*ss off folks.

well, if they end up doing a Genesis for the next game, where you let the game know what ME3 ending you chose, then you wouldn't be forcing people to accept "one" of the endings. Bioware would literally be letting you choose your ending out of the 3.

Its not that easy as just letting people pick it in a genesis comic, all 3 endings have vastly different impacts upon the future of the galaxy, i.e if control is chosen the reapers helps rebuilding to serve as the protectorers of the galaxy afterwards and is not really a good point to go off from if you want closure with them since they are present everywhere but with Shepard being the new catalyst mastermind keeping them in check.

Synthesis involved pretty much every single organic being half machine half organic while destroy lacks the enhancements to npcs and characters that would bring in terms of combat and intelligence, They would have impacts beyond some dialogue changing or certain npc's being switched out with others or not being there at all which makes crafting a coherent storyline far harder. 

It would be far easier for Bioware to just retcon the existence of 3 out of the 4 options and just go from there if they want to distance themselves from the original trilogy and let shepard rest in peace.

They have painted themselves into a corner with the endings players are being given to pick between if they planned to do a sequel without simply ignoring story elements ( would not be the first time though )

Meh. "You" don't think its a good starting point. "You" think they painted themselves into a corner. Opinions....

Its completely possible to tell a story that works within all three settings provided by the choices. Especially being a next gen game.

[Mcfly616]

iakus wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...
so what? As you said, MEHEM isn't one of the legitimate endings provided by the game. It is literally a fan mod and nothing more. Bioware has nothing to do with it whatsoever. They have no obligation to abide by it either. (And let's be honest, if they don't account for MEHEM, the outrage will be quite minimal.)


They have no attachment/allegiance or responsibility to any ending but the ones they put into the game.

No, they don't have to care about what their audience thinks.  But that attitude is what caused this stink to begin with.

If they choose to ram RGB down layers throat yet again, they are free to do so.  And people will be p*ssed at them for it, yet again.  That's all I'm saying.

they're not shoving anything down peoples throats. They're standing by what they created. Nothing more. You are just choosing to not accept them. Seriously, saying things such as that is really what made the outrage look quite pathetic. So don't act like they have malicious intent by following up on what they created. They only have to go by the possibilities within the universe they made.

And, the MEHEM audience (if it were to pass on the next game) is nothing that won't be completely replaced by those audiences that are drawn in by the hype train. Bioware won't be pissing off any substantial amount of people. And they won't be losing anything.

Modifié par Mcfly616, 30 août 2013 - 11:40 .

[Iakus]

Mcfly616 wrote...
 they're not shoving anything down peoples throats. They're standing by what they created. Nothing more. You are just choosing to not accept them. Seriously, saying things such as that is really what made the outrage look quite pathetic. So don't act like they have malicious intent by following up on what they created. They only have to go by the possibilities within the universe they made.

They encouraged "speculations" And that's exactly how a lot of people were able to swallow the ending.  Sorry if it offends your sensibilities, but there were and still are quite a few people who need a lot of headcanon ketchup to choke down these endings.  By creating a direct sequel to any of these outcomes there is a very real danger of destroying these headcanons.  Just because you have no problem with the unvarnished truth of the endings dowsn't mean everyone is fine

And, the MEHEM audience (if it were to pass on the next game) is nothing that won't be completely replaced by those audiences that are drawn in by the hype train. Bioware won't be pissing off any substantial amount of people. And they won't be losing anything.

You really like ripping on MEHEM, don't you?

Because it's not all about MEHEM, it's about any headcanon or fanfiction that gets people through these endings.  Be it IT, MEHEM, Marauder Shields, or anything else that people come up with to make these endings not so terrible.  Things that Bioware actively encouraged people to do.

The most common one I've seen are people who convinced themselves the geth and EDI can be repaired following Destroy.  You really hink that will stand up to any sequel?

There are also those who are convinced the Shepalyst is the exact same person as Shepard, and can continue to function in the galaxy by remote controlling a bot like EDI did.   Despite the evidence to the contrary

I ahve even seen it speculated that with Synthesis and the combined knowledge of the Reapers, Shepard can be reconsituted and live again.  That one wouldln't stand up to any Synthesis continuation, I'm thinking

I seriously hope that when the next Mass Effect game eventually comes around, the developers display a bit more empathy towards the fans they disappointed than you seem to show.  Your "I got mine, everyone else can go frak themselves" is not the kind of PR Bioware needs right now.

[TheWerdna]

AsheraII wrote...

I like the idea of the system. It sounds a lot more convenient than having to dig through all your old savegames for the specific playthrough you would like to import.

HOWEVER..
I also believe some things should be restricted to those who played the previous games, and made specific decisions there. Things that would have a medium sized effect on the new game, companions and storylines that are not required for enjoying or completing the game, but which would enhance it. And you'd only get to enjoy those storylines or additional squadmembers if you actually unlocked them. These could be all kinds of things, but as a simple example:

In ME1 we got to decide whether to kill or spare Shiala. I still believe it would've been nice if those who actually played ME1 and spared Shiala had had the option to recruit her as a permanent squadmember in ME3. We all know we can finish ME3 without Shiala, so it's not required in any way. However, having her as a squadmember would have enhanced our experience.

The problem with importing savegames is that they can be easily tweaked so you could import a savegame with unlocks you never actually opened up. An online system would obviously work different. If you spared Shiala, your online profile would show the "Spared Shiala" achievement. If you killed her, you'd have the "Killed Shiala" achievement instead. If you never played ME1, you wouldn't have either achievement at all!
Now, obviously, the only way to activate Shiala in your import from online, would require having played ME1, and having spared her. Yes, some perks should be available only to long time fans.
And yes, it's only a good thing if we won't know the long-term implications of all our decisions.

So while I applaud this tool for the purpose of setting up your main storyline, there have to be some things that give people reason to actually play the previous games, encourage people to do so, reward those who have.

Agreed, at best I think any file transfer should only lead to some unique dialoque here and there referencing the long term effects of some of the choices, some extra ambiant dialogue in the form of news reports and people talking, and maybe a small side quest or two reflecting a specific choice vs another.

[Mcfly616]

iakus wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...
 they're not shoving anything down peoples throats. They're standing by what they created. Nothing more. You are just choosing to not accept them. Seriously, saying things such as that is really what made the outrage look quite pathetic. So don't act like they have malicious intent by following up on what they created. They only have to go by the possibilities within the universe they made.

They encouraged "speculations" And that's exactly how a lot of people were able to swallow the ending.  Sorry if it offends your sensibilities, but there were and still are quite a few people who need a lot of headcanon ketchup to choke down these endings.  By creating a direct sequel to any of these outcomes there is a very real danger of destroying these headcanons.  Just because you have no problem with the unvarnished truth of the endings dowsn't mean everyone is fine

And, the MEHEM audience (if it were to pass on the next game) is nothing that won't be completely replaced by those audiences that are drawn in by the hype train. Bioware won't be pissing off any substantial amount of people. And they won't be losing anything.

You really like ripping on MEHEM, don't you?

Because it's not all about MEHEM, it's about any headcanon or fanfiction that gets people through these endings.  Be it IT, MEHEM, Marauder Shields, or anything else that people come up with to make these endings not so terrible.  Things that Bioware actively encouraged people to do.

The most common one I've seen are people who convinced themselves the geth and EDI can be repaired following Destroy.  You really hink that will stand up to any sequel?

There are also those who are convinced the Shepalyst is the exact same person as Shepard, and can continue to function in the galaxy by remote controlling a bot like EDI did.   Despite the evidence to the contrary

I ahve even seen it speculated that with Synthesis and the combined knowledge of the Reapers, Shepard can be reconsituted and live again.  That one wouldln't stand up to any Synthesis continuation, I'm thinking

I seriously hope that when the next Mass Effect game eventually comes around, the developers display a bit more empathy towards the fans they disappointed than you seem to show.  Your "I got mine, everyone else can go frak themselves" is not the kind of PR Bioware needs right now.

Seriously Iakus, stop making assumptions and putting words in my mouth. You know exactly what I'm talking about. Regardless if I like the endings or not, Bioware will only carry on with what they created. I hate MEHEM? Umm no, I simply stated a fact: its nothing more than a fan-made mod. I also stated that MEHEMers don't make up anything close to a large amount of the fanbase. Are there a lot of people that like it? Sure. But not when it comes to everybody that plays Mass Effect. Period. Bioware has no obligation to it whatsoever. They encouraged speculations in regards to the actual endings.

That's like me saying: oh I had a Skyrim Mod that had an all out war between good and evil for the sake of the land. If Bethesda doesn't respect my ending Mod then they're disrespecting me by shoving the actual ending to Skyrim down my throat.....


Umm yeah.....things don't work that way. You know this.