68 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

@TheRedVipress: Can you please provide examples of apostates being dragged away to Aeonar?

And then, please cite where I said I wanted to kill "the mages". First, anyone who speaks for mages as a whole - cannot be trusted. The Isolationists, Lucrosians and Loyalists were bullied into this war with in game NPCs that share a similar mindset to your own.

[wcholcombe]

Yes the whole idea of the war itself came as the result of a mage murdering another mage and framing a 3rd mage for the murder.

[Medhia Nox]

@wcholcombe: Crazy mage hijinks!

[Laughing_Man]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@TheRedVipress: Can you please provide examples of apostates being dragged away to Aeonar?

And then, please cite where I said I wanted to kill "the mages". First, anyone who speaks for mages as a whole - cannot be trusted. The Isolationists, Lucrosians and Loyalists were bullied into this war with in game NPCs that share a similar mindset to your own.

Gladly.
First the codex itself: "Accused maleficarum and *apostates* are held in the confines of Aeonar."
Second, you have that dalish keeper from that weird web-series that I watched for a chapter or three.
(I love Felicia Day, but I couldn't stand Tallis)

I said that I can't think of anyone who is *more* anti-mage than you, *aside* from someone who calls for their death.

I have no Idea what you mean by "NPCs that share a similar mindset to your own.", you can't possibly mean Anders, becaus in my "canon" I killed him for what he did. I may agree with some of his reasoning, but that dosen't mean that I tolerated his crime.

[Lord Raijin]

wcholcombe wrote...

Correct, also I believe Wynne(prior to being Archmage) was out of the tower when the Ferelden tower went all psycho.

Also, Mages in the towers are better fed and better educated than the general populace.  Life in a circle tower was actually fairly good as long as you obeyed the rules prior to Kirkwall.  Also, both the Knight Commander in Val Royeux and in Ferelden were considered to be fair minded by the mages, except for the extremist who went and got themselves possessed.  From reading assunder there are probably extremist mages the other way who think those two knight commanders were too soft on the mages.

As for the books, unless you haven't played Awakening yet, I would skip the calling and read Asunder first, it was a much more enjoyable book in my opinion.  If you are holding off on playing awakening than read calling first.

Right after the destruction of Ostigar Wynne returns back to the Circle Tower where all hell came lose in the broken circle quest. That is where your PC gets introduced to Wynne. Depending on your decision you can let her toggled alone beside you or kill her (If you plan to kill all of the mages).

All of the luxury that the Circle has to offer to the mages that rest there comes at a price. You do not have your total freedom. You essentinally become an asset of the Chantry.

“It is the innocent folk of Ferelden who matter. I would lay down my life, and the life of any mage, to protect them.” - Knight-Commander Greagoir

"Your magic is a gift, but it's also a curse. The Circle of Magi has trained you, and we templars of the Chantry stand vigil to ensure that training is adequate." - Knight-Commander Greagoir

Greagoir is far from being fair minded. Epsecially his little convo with Sten:

Sten: "This is why on Par Vollen we sow our mages' mouths shut and cut out their tongues."
Greagoir: "I'm inclined to agree with your friend. After all, the Qunari would never have found themselves in this situation."

To that respect he isn't that far off from acting crazy like Meredith.

I've already played Awakening, not once but twice. I guess I will have to read The Calling anyways, and then be patient enough to read Asunder.

[dragonflight288]

Sten: "This is why on Par Vollen we sow our mages' mouths shut and cut out their tongues."
Greagoir: "I'm inclined to agree with your friend. After all, the Qunari would never have found themselves in this situation."

I completely forgot Gregoire says that.

[wcholcombe]

Wynne herself says that Greagor has always been fair minded when she was arguing against the right of Anullment. I can fully understand Greagor's mindset considering he has just witnessed an entire tower fall to demon possession. Yes, I agree with him, in order to protect the people of Ferelden he would kill a mage who had succumbed to demon possession.

Also, do read Assunder, they talk a decent bit about how good the mages had it prior to the events of Kirkwall.  Also, in a world where the common folk aren't educated and eek out a subsistence based living, mages live pretty dang high on the hog at the towers.

Modifié par wcholcombe, 18 octobre 2013 - 08:04 .

[Laughing_Man]

wcholcombe wrote...

Wynne herself says that Greagor has always been fair minded when she was arguing against the right of Anullment. I can fully understand Greagor's mindset considering he has just witnessed an entire tower fall to demon possession. Yes, I agree with him, in order to protect the people of Ferelden he would kill a mage who had succumbed to demon possession.

Also, do read Assunder, they talk a decent bit about how good the mages had it prior to the events of Kirkwall.  Also, in a world where the common folk aren't educated and eek out a subsistence based living, mages live pretty dang high on the hog at the towers.

You mean those mages that don't get killed or lobotomized because someone decided that they are a waste of resources and a risk, right? And Wynne probably has Stockholm syndrome if she defends the templar's agenda after they took her newborn from her.

[wcholcombe]

TheRedVipress wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Wynne herself says that Greagor has always been fair minded when she was arguing against the right of Anullment. I can fully understand Greagor's mindset considering he has just witnessed an entire tower fall to demon possession. Yes, I agree with him, in order to protect the people of Ferelden he would kill a mage who had succumbed to demon possession.

Also, do read Assunder, they talk a decent bit about how good the mages had it prior to the events of Kirkwall.  Also, in a world where the common folk aren't educated and eek out a subsistence based living, mages live pretty dang high on the hog at the towers.

You mean those mages that don't get killed or lobotomized because someone decided that they are a waste of resources and a risk, right? And Wynne probably has Stockholm syndrome if she defends the templar's agenda after they took her newborn from her.

You are painting with a broad brush there.  For the most part, we have met through game design Templars that are very hard core when it comes to keeping mages in line.  We have met a few that aren't, but due to game design the extremist tend to be our typical encounters.  Now, at the same time, we have met few if any non PC or non party member mages who don't succumb to blood magic and demon possession.  Seriously, if you are going to paint with the broad brush of the majority of our encounters in game in regards to templars, we haven't met many non party member mages that don't fit that bill.  Heck, Anders himself a party member becomes an abomination.

[Medhia Nox]

@wcholcombe: Mages have bad experiences and stuff. So it's okay.

[Laughing_Man]

wcholcombe wrote...

TheRedVipress wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Wynne herself says that Greagor has always been fair minded when she was arguing against the right of Anullment. I can fully understand Greagor's mindset considering he has just witnessed an entire tower fall to demon possession. Yes, I agree with him, in order to protect the people of Ferelden he would kill a mage who had succumbed to demon possession.

Also, do read Assunder, they talk a decent bit about how good the mages had it prior to the events of Kirkwall.  Also, in a world where the common folk aren't educated and eek out a subsistence based living, mages live pretty dang high on the hog at the towers.

You mean those mages that don't get killed or lobotomized because someone decided that they are a waste of resources and a risk, right? And Wynne probably has Stockholm syndrome if she defends the templar's agenda after they took her newborn from her.

You are painting with a broad brush there.  For the most part, we have met through game design Templars that are very hard core when it comes to keeping mages in line.  We have met a few that aren't, but due to game design the extremist tend to be our typical encounters.  Now, at the same time, we have met few if any non PC or non party member mages who don't succumb to blood magic and demon possession.  Seriously, if you are going to paint with the broad brush of the majority of our encounters in game in regards to templars, we haven't met many non party member mages that don't fit that bill.  Heck, Anders himself a party member becomes an abomination.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with limited use of Blood-Magic for a specific purpose.
To clarify, I don't see anything wrong with a mage using his own blood or the blood of an attacker if the purpose for the use of this magic is justified.
And by justified I mean: Killing darkspawn, self-defense against those who want to kill you, etc.
The point where blood-magic becomes evil, is when you use it to dominate the mind of another for nefarious purposes: be it rape, stealing money, or something more elaborate. Also killing slaves to fuel your magic.

I would think of an abomination in much the same way.
If the "abomination" is not thinking straight - like Anders, and performs evil acts, kill it.
But if the mage remains in control of his mind, or if like with Wynne the possesion is by a benevolent spirit, I have no problem with it.

I don't really claim that Templars = Evil. Some of them are good, some evil, most are simply misguided in my opinion. My point was that I don't buy the talk on "how good the mages had it prior to kirkwall."
After all, kirkwall itself didn't happen in a vacuum, Anders was the result rather than the beginning.

Modifié par TheRedVipress, 18 octobre 2013 - 09:25 .

[Laughing_Man]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@wcholcombe: Mages have bad experiences and stuff. So it's okay.

You should really stop pretending like the mage's defense depends on "bad-childhood", or that I claimed that various experiences justify evil acts. I stated the exact opposite quite a few times.

Also, seems to me that it's usually the templar who has a story about how a mage killed his family - followed by the "obvious" conclusion: all mages must pay for the sins of the few.

Modifié par TheRedVipress, 18 octobre 2013 - 09:29 .

[Beerfish]

Taleroth wrote...

Honestly that place is asking for trouble.

Ooh, ahh, abominations are dangerous! So let's gather up all the mages that are the greatest risk of becoming abominations and lock them in a place that aids the process.

Either the Templars are dumb as posts or abominations aren't half as dangerous as is claimed.

Two lines of thinking, could the possiblity of becoming an abopmination be used to keep mages in line?
Do they want a location so dangerous and so isolated that it will keep other mages away.

[Lord Raijin]

wcholcombe wrote...

Wynne herself says that Greagor has always been fair minded when she was arguing against the right of Anullment. I can fully understand Greagor's mindset considering he has just witnessed an entire tower fall to demon possession. Yes, I agree with him, in order to protect the people of Ferelden he would kill a mage who had succumbed to demon possession.

Also, do read Assunder, they talk a decent bit about how good the mages had it prior to the events of Kirkwall.  Also, in a world where the common folk aren't educated and eek out a subsistence based living, mages live pretty dang high on the hog at the towers.

The decision for ROA against the Circle tower in Feralden was in the right decision, however after seeing his agreement with Sten clearly drives this man's mindset in the dangerous direction; very close to being another Meredith. Like what TheRedVipress said Wynne most likley suffers from Stockholm syndrome base on her past experience. She will of course defend her abusers no matter how many babies they take from her.. or how many mages they slaughter because they "fail" the Harrowing. or many mages fall victims of the rite because the Commander "suspects" them of using blood magic.

Circle mages may live pretty damn high at the towers, but many of them are tired of being controled by the Chantry. It is why they've created their own political affairs. Some even take drastic actions to free themselves from the Chantry at all cost. Apparently living the hog life isn't as great as you think it is.... especially while the Chantry is running the show.

[wcholcombe]

Lord Raijin wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...

Wynne herself says that Greagor has always been fair minded when she was arguing against the right of Anullment. I can fully understand Greagor's mindset considering he has just witnessed an entire tower fall to demon possession. Yes, I agree with him, in order to protect the people of Ferelden he would kill a mage who had succumbed to demon possession.

Also, do read Assunder, they talk a decent bit about how good the mages had it prior to the events of Kirkwall.  Also, in a world where the common folk aren't educated and eek out a subsistence based living, mages live pretty dang high on the hog at the towers.

The decision for ROA against the Circle tower in Feralden was in the right decision, however after seeing his agreement with Sten clearly drives this man's mindset in the dangerous direction; very close to being another Meredith. Like what TheRedVipress said Wynne most likley suffers from Stockholm syndrome base on her past experience. She will of course defend her abuesers no matter how many babies they take from her.. or how many mages they slaughter because they "fail" the Harrowing. or many mages fall victims of the rite because the Commander "suspects" them of using blood magic.

Circle mages may live pretty damn high at the towers, but many of them are tired of being controled by the Chantry. It is why they've created their own political affairs. Some even take drastic actions to free themselves from the Chantry at all cost. Apparently living the hog life isn't as great as you think it is.... especially while the Chantry is running the show.

I love this logic. Seriously Wynne has to have a mental issue for not being anti templar? What about Rhys was he mental too?  As for how they live in the tower my point was that they enjoy a much nicer standard of living than avg commoners. And yes a mage murdering another mage to frame a 3rd mage is entirely sane.... 
As for Gregore he had just seen his tower taken over by demons and killing mages and templars can cause you to have a harsh view on life at that moment.

And I am sorry, but with what is at risk I don't have an issue with the harrowing.

[Laughing_Man]

wcholcombe wrote...

I love this logic. Seriously Wynne has to have a mental issue for not being anti templar? What about Rhys was he mental too?  As for how they live in the tower my point was that they enjoy a much nicer standard of living than avg commoners. And yes a mage murdering another mage to frame a 3rd mage is entirely sane.... 
As for Gregore he had just seen his tower taken over by demons and killing mages and templars can cause you to have a harsh view on life at that moment.

And I am sorry, but with what is at risk I don't have an issue with the harrowing.

Wynne must have a mental problem, not "for not being anti-templar", but rather because she pretends that "oh it's okay, it was a long time ago". That's not how a mother that had a baby forcibly taken from her feels.

And I don't really justify Cole, or Anders, but both of them are a product of the chantry's fanatic and merciless atitude.

And my problem is not with the harrowing itself, but rather with how it is done, with how little it takes for a templar to kill the participating mage, and with the idea that everyone that dosen't look capable enough to directly confront a demon should be killed or lobotomized.

[Lord Raijin]

wcholcombe wrote...
I love this logic. Seriously Wynne has to have a mental issue for not being anti templar? What about Rhys was he mental too?  As for how they live in the tower my point was that they enjoy a much nicer standard of living than avg commoners. And yes a mage murdering another mage to frame a 3rd mage is entirely sane....
As for Gregore he had just seen his tower taken over by demons and killing mages and templars can cause you to have a harsh view on life at that moment.

And I am sorry, but with what is at risk I don't have an issue with the harrowing.

By mental issues by suffering from severe case of Stockholm syndrome yes, Wynne suffers from a mental issues for not waking up and realizing that what the templars are doing is flat out wrong, especially slight in the fact that they've kidnapped her newborn son, and took him to the nearby Chantry to be indoctrinated. Do you know just how stressful that can be to a mother who just given birth? To not have the opportunity to bond with their own child?  Wynne created a paradoxical emotional bond with her captors (Her Templar jailers) and therefor will defend them with her life... which I think she did exactly that in the Asunder book from what I heard of.

The Chantry brought all of this upon themselves for forcing mages to take drastic actions. Not all mages will accept the abuse like Wynne.  Mages has been systematically abuse for thousands of years. Some will take drastic action to fight for their freedom like in the situation with Anders, Jowan, and the rest of the “crazy” blood mages that we've seen in Kirkwall.

[HiroVoid]

Lord Raijin wrote...

wcholcombe wrote...
I love this logic. Seriously Wynne has to have a mental issue for not being anti templar? What about Rhys was he mental too?  As for how they live in the tower my point was that they enjoy a much nicer standard of living than avg commoners. And yes a mage murdering another mage to frame a 3rd mage is entirely sane....
As for Gregore he had just seen his tower taken over by demons and killing mages and templars can cause you to have a harsh view on life at that moment.

And I am sorry, but with what is at risk I don't have an issue with the harrowing.

By mental issues by suffering from severe case of Stockholm syndrome yes, Wynne suffers from a mental issues for not waking up and realizing that what the templars are doing is flat out wrong,

In other words, disagreeing with you.

[Lord Raijin]

HiroVoid wrote...
In other words, disagreeing with you.

Like how?