403 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

ITSSEXYTIME : Oh, I'm definately not disagreeing with "you".

[ITSSEXYTIME]

Deran2 wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...
I believe otherwise, it has been proving that people are varying ages can be more mature than others.  I know rather young people (11-12) that are more mature than some of the people I know my own age.

However, there are obvious parallels.

Anti-homosexuality such as argued by darth's original post way back on page one basically had a "zero-tolerance" point of view on the issue, quite similarly many people adopt a similar police on pedophilia.

The subject of whether or not a child can provide consent is an interesting one and not one that I've formed my own personal opinion on yet.  Hypothetically however if a child was able to consent to such actions would you still believe it to be "wrong"?  Is the mere act of having sex with a child wrong or is it the lack of consent?

The major issue is that acting on those urges can and does cause psycological harm to children. While that isn't the case in 100% of all instances of molestation, it is in enough cases that its a cause for concern. And it doesn't matter if the child believes they are consenting, if they simply don't understand what it is that are agreeing to. And therein lies the problem, understanding. We know so little about the brain of an adult, much less the ever changing one of a child, that its near impossible to make that judgement call for an entire age range or even on an individual basis. While its true that some children (especially pre-teens) understand what sex is and may even be capable of understanding what they are consenting to, its simply safer to say that its wrong.

PS: It is very hard for me to stay away from any large bias on this topic, but I am going to try and make every attempt to do so.

I'd argue that most of the psychological damage stems from societal influence.  Eg Obesity is considered a good trait in some cultures as a sign of fertility and wealth while in modern day western cultures it represents laziness and unhealthiness.  If a child was more informed about sex, and if it was entirely up to their own consent would the practice be acceptable?  Everyone makes mistakes and it's certainly feasible that children engaging in such activites might regret it later but inversely it's not inconceivable that some children wouldn't enjoy the activity and even develop a healthy relationship out of it.

I think the major thing that needs to be addressed is whether or not sexual acts between a child and a grown adult is acceptable, disregarding consent or and longterm psychological effects.  Or is it the perception that children are "tricked" or "forced" into the acts that people find offensive?

[Revan312]

TheAnima wrote...

Actually, I think the notable descend created by these threads show just how important these options are, and increase the chance of them being available in future games/DLC.

My god, I didn't want to look at this thread because I feared you'd be in here Anima, are you still on this?    Your thread from the original ME board was already debated at nausium. Give it up already.  For the record I wouldn't partake in a gay romance in ME but I also wouldn't mind it's inclusion, but the game is gold and it's the second in a series of three, the potentiality of them including it in the third game is minimal at best.  Just lay your gun down and step away with some dignity.

[crake333]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

Deran2 wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...
I believe otherwise, it has been proving that people are varying ages can be more mature than others.  I know rather young people (11-12) that are more mature than some of the people I know my own age.

However, there are obvious parallels.

Anti-homosexuality such as argued by darth's original post way back on page one basically had a "zero-tolerance" point of view on the issue, quite similarly many people adopt a similar police on pedophilia.

The subject of whether or not a child can provide consent is an interesting one and not one that I've formed my own personal opinion on yet.  Hypothetically however if a child was able to consent to such actions would you still believe it to be "wrong"?  Is the mere act of having sex with a child wrong or is it the lack of consent?

The major issue is that acting on those urges can and does cause psycological harm to children. While that isn't the case in 100% of all instances of molestation, it is in enough cases that its a cause for concern. And it doesn't matter if the child believes they are consenting, if they simply don't understand what it is that are agreeing to. And therein lies the problem, understanding. We know so little about the brain of an adult, much less the ever changing one of a child, that its near impossible to make that judgement call for an entire age range or even on an individual basis. While its true that some children (especially pre-teens) understand what sex is and may even be capable of understanding what they are consenting to, its simply safer to say that its wrong.

PS: It is very hard for me to stay away from any large bias on this topic, but I am going to try and make every attempt to do so.

I'd argue that most of the psychological damage stems from societal influence.  Eg Obesity is considered a good trait in some cultures as a sign of fertility and wealth while in modern day western cultures it represents laziness and unhealthiness.  If a child was more informed about sex, and if it was entirely up to their own consent would the practice be acceptable?  Everyone makes mistakes and it's certainly feasible that children engaging in such activites might regret it later but inversely it's not inconceivable that some children wouldn't enjoy the activity and even develop a healthy relationship out of it.

I think the major thing that needs to be addressed is whether or not sexual acts between a child and a grown adult is acceptable, disregarding consent or and longterm psychological effects.  Or is it the perception that children are "tricked" or "forced" into the acts that people find offensive?

This strikes me as very confused.  When an adult has a sexual relationship with a child, the adult is taking advantage of the child.  The child cannot understand what is being asked of him/her, if he/she is asked anything at all.  A child cannot comprehend what is being asked of them; they are not physically, mentally, or sexually ready to respond to such an advance.  This is why a child cannot give consent, and why there is a fundamental difference between pedophilia and homosexuality.  You say "perception" that children are "tricked or "forced"...I ask you what child you know of would ever seek out a sexual relationship with an adult...children are always tricked or forced into such relationships, though obviously a teenager may not be.  It is a clearly established trend in psychology that pedophilic relationships damage children psychologically, I don't see how you can disregard this in a discussion of this kind.

[Deran2]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...
I'd argue that most of the psychological damage stems from societal influence.  Eg Obesity is considered a good trait in some cultures as a sign of fertility and wealth while in modern day western cultures it represents laziness and unhealthiness.  If a child was more informed about sex, and if it was entirely up to their own consent would the practice be acceptable?  Everyone makes mistakes and it's certainly feasible that children engaging in such activites might regret it later but inversely it's not inconceivable that some children wouldn't enjoy the activity and even develop a healthy relationship out of it.

I think the major thing that needs to be addressed is whether or not sexual acts between a child and a grown adult is acceptable, disregarding consent or and longterm psychological effects.  Or is it the perception that children are "tricked" or "forced" into the acts that people find offensive?

The whole problem is that it leads back to what I said: We don't know enough about the human mind to make that call. If a definitive call to be made as to whether or not children of a specific age are capable of understanding what they are doing and would not be harmed from it then I really don't know. My problem is that I'm of two opinions on it. One part of my mind wants to go with the idea that if it causes no harm then its not a problem, but the other part is screaming that its bad as I was a victim of molestation as a child and it has effected me all through my life. Its a really personal and and hard hitting discussion for someone like me because I understand just enough about psycology to get why the argument can go both ways, but have personal experiences that shape a very strong opinion on the people who do do those things.

[jidnis]

Redshift,



You seem to be honed in on reproductive fitness of the individual rather than also taking in consideration the fitness the individual contributes to the population.



Take ants for example. The vast majority of individuals are nonreproductive. Drones do not reproduce, but by no means does that indicate they are "selfish". They in fact, reproduce by proxy via contributing to the reproductive fitness of the queen.



In your example you gave a doctor that did not reproduce. Suppose this doctor made a major breakthrough increasing our quality of life, but had no offspring. You may see this as wasteful, but the society as a whole (and hence, the gene pool the doctor came from) gains a competitive advantage in survival and reproduction. Suppose he has siblings, cousins, neices, nephews, even further distant relatives etc (whome he shares his genes) that can benefit from his discovery. Because of his contributions, their level of fitness increases. If it does so in a way that confers a reproductive advantage - even by just a bit- he has statistically reproduced by proxy. In other words, it would have been just as well as if he reproduced directly

[Revan312]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

I'd argue that most of the psychological damage stems from societal influence.  Eg Obesity is considered a good trait in some cultures as a sign of fertility and wealth while in modern day western cultures it represents laziness and unhealthiness.  If a child was more informed about sex, and if it was entirely up to their own consent would the practice be acceptable?  Everyone makes mistakes and it's certainly feasible that children engaging in such activites might regret it later but inversely it's not inconceivable that some children wouldn't enjoy the activity and even develop a healthy relationship out of it.

I think the major thing that needs to be addressed is whether or not sexual acts between a child and a grown adult is acceptable, disregarding consent or and longterm psychological effects.  Or is it the perception that children are "tricked" or "forced" into the acts that people find offensive?

I don't want to read through 12 pages of comments but are you seriously arguing in favor of child molestation and pedophilia?

Wow, this thread is worse than I could have ever imagined...

[ITSSEXYTIME]

crake333 wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

Deran2 wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...
I believe otherwise, it has been proving that people are varying ages can be more mature than others.  I know rather young people (11-12) that are more mature than some of the people I know my own age.

However, there are obvious parallels.

Anti-homosexuality such as argued by darth's original post way back on page one basically had a "zero-tolerance" point of view on the issue, quite similarly many people adopt a similar police on pedophilia.

The subject of whether or not a child can provide consent is an interesting one and not one that I've formed my own personal opinion on yet.  Hypothetically however if a child was able to consent to such actions would you still believe it to be "wrong"?  Is the mere act of having sex with a child wrong or is it the lack of consent?

The major issue is that acting on those urges can and does cause psycological harm to children. While that isn't the case in 100% of all instances of molestation, it is in enough cases that its a cause for concern. And it doesn't matter if the child believes they are consenting, if they simply don't understand what it is that are agreeing to. And therein lies the problem, understanding. We know so little about the brain of an adult, much less the ever changing one of a child, that its near impossible to make that judgement call for an entire age range or even on an individual basis. While its true that some children (especially pre-teens) understand what sex is and may even be capable of understanding what they are consenting to, its simply safer to say that its wrong.

PS: It is very hard for me to stay away from any large bias on this topic, but I am going to try and make every attempt to do so.

I'd argue that most of the psychological damage stems from societal influence.  Eg Obesity is considered a good trait in some cultures as a sign of fertility and wealth while in modern day western cultures it represents laziness and unhealthiness.  If a child was more informed about sex, and if it was entirely up to their own consent would the practice be acceptable?  Everyone makes mistakes and it's certainly feasible that children engaging in such activites might regret it later but inversely it's not inconceivable that some children wouldn't enjoy the activity and even develop a healthy relationship out of it.

I think the major thing that needs to be addressed is whether or not sexual acts between a child and a grown adult is acceptable, disregarding consent or and longterm psychological effects.  Or is it the perception that children are "tricked" or "forced" into the acts that people find offensive?

This strikes me as very confused.  When an adult has a sexual relationship with a child, the adult is taking advantage of the child.  The child cannot understand what is being asked of him/her, if he/she is asked anything at all.  A child cannot comprehend what is being asked of them; they are not physically, mentally, or sexually ready to respond to such an advance.  This is why a child cannot give consent, and why there is a fundamental difference between pedophilia and homosexuality.  You say "perception" that children are "tricked or "forced"...I ask you what child you know of would ever seek out a sexual relationship with an adult...children are always tricked or forced into such relationships, though obviously a teenager may not be.  It is a clearly established trend in psychology that pedophilic relationships damage children psychologically, I don't see how you can disregard this in a discussion of this kind.

Whose to say that?

There's no evidence to prove that children are incapable of such though, nor is there any evidence to support the claim that the act of pedophilia causes psychological damage.

You cannot dismiss societal influence (How is it any different than people telling homosexual children that their homosexuality is wrong or evil? Can you dismiss the observed effects from that such as suicide attempts etc?) , nor can you make claims such as "children don't seek sex" which is untrue, there have been plenty of cases where two small children may sexually experiment with each other.  

If a child was properly informed on what sex is and everything about it and were not subject to "Omg that man touched you, I feel so bad for you" and "What that man did was wrong" would the act of an adult having sex with a child be wrong?

You're avoiding the question, and I think it's because you don't know the answer, and neither do I but it is an interesting idea and thus I ask it.

[Medhia Nox]

ITSSEXYTIME: Okay, I "do" disagree about the pedophelia and child molestation thing.



It's an abhorent act, even the thought is to be considered destructive - I can't say anything as fact, but I feel unbendingly intolerant of pedophelia/child molestation. Even the thought of it.

[ITSSEXYTIME]

Revan312 wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

I'd argue that most of the psychological damage stems from societal influence.  Eg Obesity is considered a good trait in some cultures as a sign of fertility and wealth while in modern day western cultures it represents laziness and unhealthiness.  If a child was more informed about sex, and if it was entirely up to their own consent would the practice be acceptable?  Everyone makes mistakes and it's certainly feasible that children engaging in such activites might regret it later but inversely it's not inconceivable that some children wouldn't enjoy the activity and even develop a healthy relationship out of it.

I think the major thing that needs to be addressed is whether or not sexual acts between a child and a grown adult is acceptable, disregarding consent or and longterm psychological effects.  Or is it the perception that children are "tricked" or "forced" into the acts that people find offensive?

I don't want to read through 12 pages of comments but are you seriously arguing in favor of child molestation and pedophilia?

Wow, this thread is worse than I could have ever imagined...

No, I'm arguing that there is a difference between pedophilia and child molestation.

Differentiating the two in your mind is a fairly difficult thing for people to grasp though.

[NKKKK]

I heard Jacob and Thane are romanceble as males, is this true?

[Wintersembrace]

Medhia Nox wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME: Okay, I "do" disagree about the pedophelia and child molestation thing.

It's an abhorent act, even the thought is to be considered destructive - I can't say anything as fact, but I feel unbendingly intolerant of pedophelia/child molestation. Even the thought of it.

yep agree id muder any one that touched my kids then i would hunt down there family and wipe there line from the face of the earth

[TheAnima]

NKKKK wrote...

I heard Jacob and Thane are romanceble as males, is this true?

Thane and Jacob are only romance options for a female Shepard.

[T1l]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

No, I'm arguing that there is a difference between pedophilia and child molestation.

Differentiating the two in your mind is a fairly difficult thing for people to grasp though.

It's like arguing the difference between a pepper and a capsicum; that's not the issue, the real issue here is why you'd want to talk about it here, on a Mass Effect forum. Actually, I take that back; the real issue is: Where the hell are the moderators!?

[TheAnima]

T1l wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

No, I'm arguing that there is a difference between pedophilia and child molestation.

Differentiating the two in your mind is a fairly difficult thing for people to grasp though.

It's like arguing the difference between a pepper and a capsicum; that's not the issue, the real issue here is why you'd want to talk about it here, on a Mass Effect forum. Actually, I take that back; the real issue is: Where the hell are the moderators!?

I've been asking that for days.

[Revan312]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

Whose to say that?

There's no evidence to prove that children are incapable of such though, nor is there any evidence to support the claim that the act of pedophilia causes psychological damage.

You cannot dismiss societal influence (How is it any different than people telling homosexual children that their homosexuality is wrong or evil? Can you dismiss the observed effects from that such as suicide attempts etc?) , nor can you make claims such as "children don't seek sex" which is untrue, there have been plenty of cases where two small children may sexually experiment with each other.  

If a child was properly informed on what sex is and everything about it and were not subject to "Omg that man touched you, I feel so bad for you" and "What that man did was wrong" would the act of an adult having sex with a child be wrong?

You're avoiding the question, and I think it's because you don't know the answer, and neither do I but it is an interesting idea and thus I ask it.

I'm all for the spirit of debate and playing the devil's advocate but really? Really? You are making an argument in favor of pedophilia simply because there's no scientific studies that use a control and raise a child in a neutral environment where they can "come on" to said child and view the results?  Only because there are no empirical facts about child sexual arrousal your going to argue for pedophilia.... hmm  I really need to leave this thread before my debate engine revs up, see ya.

Modifié par Revan312, 19 janvier 2010 - 05:38 .

[Medhia Nox]

Honestly T1 - it's better to let people vomit into one thread. Otherwise, it'll just spread.

[Collider]

It's simply safer that minors are not allowed to have sex with adults. It is better to assume that the minors were taken advantaged of. I don't care if the minors consent to it - it is also better to assume that they did not have informed consent. Exceptions can neither be measured nor can they invalidate these laws.



I'm not talking about a 17 year old with an 18 year old. But there does obviously need to be a line drawn.

[crake333]

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

crake333 wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...

Deran2 wrote...

ITSSEXYTIME wrote...
I believe otherwise, it has been proving that people are varying ages can be more mature than others.  I know rather young people (11-12) that are more mature than some of the people I know my own age.

However, there are obvious parallels.

Anti-homosexuality such as argued by darth's original post way back on page one basically had a "zero-tolerance" point of view on the issue, quite similarly many people adopt a similar police on pedophilia.

The subject of whether or not a child can provide consent is an interesting one and not one that I've formed my own personal opinion on yet.  Hypothetically however if a child was able to consent to such actions would you still believe it to be "wrong"?  Is the mere act of having sex with a child wrong or is it the lack of consent?

The major issue is that acting on those urges can and does cause psycological harm to children. While that isn't the case in 100% of all instances of molestation, it is in enough cases that its a cause for concern. And it doesn't matter if the child believes they are consenting, if they simply don't understand what it is that are agreeing to. And therein lies the problem, understanding. We know so little about the brain of an adult, much less the ever changing one of a child, that its near impossible to make that judgement call for an entire age range or even on an individual basis. While its true that some children (especially pre-teens) understand what sex is and may even be capable of understanding what they are consenting to, its simply safer to say that its wrong.

PS: It is very hard for me to stay away from any large bias on this topic, but I am going to try and make every attempt to do so.

I'd argue that most of the psychological damage stems from societal influence.  Eg Obesity is considered a good trait in some cultures as a sign of fertility and wealth while in modern day western cultures it represents laziness and unhealthiness.  If a child was more informed about sex, and if it was entirely up to their own consent would the practice be acceptable?  Everyone makes mistakes and it's certainly feasible that children engaging in such activites might regret it later but inversely it's not inconceivable that some children wouldn't enjoy the activity and even develop a healthy relationship out of it.

I think the major thing that needs to be addressed is whether or not sexual acts between a child and a grown adult is acceptable, disregarding consent or and longterm psychological effects.  Or is it the perception that children are "tricked" or "forced" into the acts that people find offensive?

This strikes me as very confused.  When an adult has a sexual relationship with a child, the adult is taking advantage of the child.  The child cannot understand what is being asked of him/her, if he/she is asked anything at all.  A child cannot comprehend what is being asked of them; they are not physically, mentally, or sexually ready to respond to such an advance.  This is why a child cannot give consent, and why there is a fundamental difference between pedophilia and homosexuality.  You say "perception" that children are "tricked or "forced"...I ask you what child you know of would ever seek out a sexual relationship with an adult...children are always tricked or forced into such relationships, though obviously a teenager may not be.  It is a clearly established trend in psychology that pedophilic relationships damage children psychologically, I don't see how you can disregard this in a discussion of this kind.

Whose to say that?

There's no evidence to prove that children are incapable of such though, nor is there any evidence to support the claim that the act of pedophilia causes psychological damage.

You cannot dismiss societal influence (How is it any different than people telling homosexual children that their homosexuality is wrong or evil? Can you dismiss the observed effects from that such as suicide attempts etc?) , nor can you make claims such as "children don't seek sex" which is untrue, there have been plenty of cases where two small children may sexually experiment with each other.  

If a child was properly informed on what sex is and everything about it and were not subject to "Omg that man touched you, I feel so bad for you" and "What that man did was wrong" would the act of an adult having sex with a child be wrong?

You're avoiding the question, and I think it's because you don't know the answer, and neither do I but it is an interesting idea and thus I ask it.

Try reading what I write this time.  I said children don't seek sex with adults...yes, they may experiment with children around their own age, but they don't seek sex with adults.

No evidence, eh?  Try ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/156/8/1223 and www.aacap.org/page.ww

I'm not avoiding any question.  The question is whether you can equate homosexuality and pedophilia.  My response is a resounding no.  You're avoiding what I'm saying by twisting it to suit your needs and to make me sound ignorant.

[Collider]

Societal influences have nothing to do with it. Frankly put, children are being taken advantage of. You can explain quantum mechanics to a child but they won't understand it. Children hinge on every word an adult says. Why shouldn't they - they might "think - that's basically how they learned everything.

[ITSSEXYTIME]

Just to make it clear, I'm not endorsing pedophilia nor child molestation. I've expressed very little personal opinion in any of the discussion in this thread.



I just enjoy discussing abstract concepts people often don't think about.

[Collider]

But your possible reasons for the defense of it are quite flimsy. Yes, children can consent. But is it informed? Likely not. The miniscule amount of exceptions to the rule don't invalidate the rule.

[T1l]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Honestly T1 - it's better to let people vomit into one thread. Otherwise, it'll just spread.

It's why I wish Bioware would create a "Complaints Forum". It would help a great deal.

Modifié par T1l, 19 janvier 2010 - 05:52 .