676 réponses à ce sujet

[andysks]

I don't use OM, at least not yet. The open world, in the way I mean open world is that once a location is unlocked, up until the end of the campaign you'll be able to go there and do stuff. Plus, the areas will interfere with each other heavily. People sending you to previous visited places and what not .

[Dann-J]

For an open world, something you can do on the OM is tune the hidden sites with the Search skill; a low level party would likely also have a low Search skill and so would fail to find the high level sites even with a take-20 roll. You could also do a Survival skill check in case the party doesn't put points in Search.

 

That's basically what I do on my overland map, via a script I also use for hidden items in other areas as well. I use the highest of either the search skill or the tracking skill, with a bonus if you have the detection or tracking modes active (I've reactivated the combat modes UI on my OLM).

 

Skill bonuses via equipment stack, so a low-level character with several items that boost search or survival could potentially discover something they can't handle. But hey - that's adventuring for you.

[andysks]

KevL I kinda missed your reply there. The thing is, that for all my quests I award the xp from the convo of the quest giver/rewarded with the ga_give_quest_xp. Therefore I cannot alter it with conditionals. I can, but it's too much work to bother at the moment. Maybe a reference to the journal pointing to the level range of the quest is not a bad idea after all. I am one of the few maybe that enjoyed a game like ToEE, where in the first area, the village of Homlet you can enter every home and there is absolutely no marker to indicate anything. They just say: Go west by the mill, next to the big tree. And I search for two hours to find a guy to deliver a potion. But maybe times have changed, and a game with no markers seems a bit unfamiliar to the gamer... I don't know .

[Groove Widdit]

 

I love fantasy maps! Spent way too much time making them, and I really enjoy seeing them as a reference in novels. Your example above looks great. It's got a nice hand-drawn feel to it. Not sure it really needs much more.

 

Those are cool maps.

[kevL]

KevL I kinda missed your reply there. The thing is, that for all my quests I award the xp from the convo of the quest giver/rewarded with the ga_give_quest_xp. Therefore I cannot alter it with conditionals. I can, but it's too much work to bother at the moment.

see

or not/up to you

[andysks]

Journal Update

 

 

• When is work actually finished...?

I want to be a little philosophical today. I often have some long talks with my friends about many things, but I think this one is worth mentioning. We were talking about an artist's work, and if it really ends at some point. I share it here, because I find what we do a type of art maybe.

So, I thought that a piece of art, a module... does it really end? Does a point come where the builder says "It's ready now", or is it just satisfaction with what you have?

 

They say Da Vinci was working on Mona Lisa 'till the day he died, even though to most of us it seems like a complete and finished painting. Same with modules. I guess there are many authors who have even more ideas for quests, dialogues, companions... but they decide enough is enough, and are satisfied from the state of the project, and releasing it.

 

Moving the subject to my own campaign, I found out that there are some simple questions I need to ask myself every time I get a new idea, not just for a side quest, this is simple. But for something that will require some more work to be done.

1. Is it essential?
2. Is it worth it?
3. Can I do it without breaking my head on the wall?
4. Can I actually try it later on?

There are some examples here.

•  KevL's script about xp rewards. Powerful stuff. I think it falls under the later on branch. I think it's a bit complicated for me to implement, at least at this point of time.
• Tchos' city guards. This one has been on my head since I started working on my big city. When Tchos made it possible, (for those who don't know he made his guards active by taking you to the prison, and the civilians running away), I thought of asking him how. Then I decided not to. My big city is fine as it is. It will be OK. Maybe later on if I have the guts to try it, and if he wants to share it of course .
• The continent map. This one I like. I will do it. Won't break my head, and I will enjoy making it.
• Quest Board. This one's tricky. I thought of making a quest board on a civilian area, where various groups of people or individuals ask for help outside the city watch channels. It would exist on every big city. I am not as good with custom UI as Lance Botelle, so I'd make it as a convo. In the beginning I thought of it as an idea. Then it fell through the "Is it essential" part. Then I thought of something related to the main plot that it would make it really cool, so it will be done.
• Journey to the Elven Forest. The way I had it, you travel there, and you arrive there. One of these days I thought of the cliche, Elves stop you on your way because you invaded their forest. This would require a new area, a new entry to my world travel library and convo. So I thought I'd skip it.

So, many of these things come, and they come often. 6 months ago I wanted to release my prologue. If I had done that, It would be with 6 less areas, 1 less companion, generally weak companion system, 2 less side quests and no prologue end cinematic/move to chapter 1. So in my opinion, an artist's project never truly ends. There is only the point of satisfaction, that I can say "Now it looks good."

Of course this is tough for perfectionists like me. But as I said above, it's not tiring. The progress itself is a beauty I enjoy every day I work on this toolset.

[Tchos]

Tchos' city guards. This one has been on my head since I started working on my big city. When Tchos made it possible, (for those who don't know he made his guards active by taking you to the prison, and the civilians running away), I thought of asking him how. Then I decided not to. My big city is fine as it is. It will be OK. Maybe later on if I have the guts to try it, and if he wants to share it of course .

 
Certainly I want to share it.  It's not exactly in a finished, polished condition at the moment, and isn't documented, but if anyone wants what I have and doesn't mind the rough edges, just ask.

 

They say Da Vinci was working on Mona Lisa 'till the day he died, even though to most of us it seems like a complete and finished painting.

More or less...he abandoned it a few years before his death.  He considered it unfinished, but he thought everything he made was unfinished.  He claimed that he never finished anything in his life, which is a great illustration of your point, since I've seen a lot of his work, and it certainly looked finished to me.

[andysks]

It is so appealing to be honest. But maybe I need to take a look at it once it's finished, and decide if the work to implement it is too much. Thank you of course for wanting to share it .

[andysks]

Absolute perfection not. I am a perfectionist but also a realist. When I say perfection, I mean things like: a cutscene camera has to be absolute right to capture what I want and so on. But yes, you make a point there about other games, professional games.

[ColorsFade]

Different art mediums have different answers. 

 

I totally understand what you're saying - and asking - with this thread. I get the same feeling building my campaign. When is an area done? When is a quest done? At what point do I just say, "it is good enough" and push something to the "DONE" pile?

 

Different art - different answers. 

 

I play guitar and have, on occasion, written music. Writing a song is a very creative, artistic process. But it is also a very finite process. And I say that coming from a background in progressive rock. Even a song like "Six Degrees of Inner Turbulence" has an end.... it comes to a close. 

 

I've never had a problem working on a song and saying, "this is done". But I have had to deal with that feeling building these NWN2 mods... So it's just a different thing. 

 

I think part of the reason is because this art is so vast; there's so much to building one of these campaigns. Area design, quest design, encounters, conversations, and then all of the nifty stuff we build via scripting so that we can do something 'different' from the stock engine. There's a lot to do. 

 

Ultimately, I think what it comes down to  - the question you have to ask is - "Am I satisfied with this as a story"? Have I told my story completely? 

 

Because really, that is what we're doing here. We're telling stories. 

 

Stephen King has a great book I'd recommend you read Andy. It's called "On Writing". He talks a lot about story development, when to cut things out and leave things in, etc. I think a lot of that book is really applicable to what we're doing with these games. 

 

One of the things King writes is, "Kill your darlings". And what he means by that is, when he's writing a story, a lot of the time he's creating characters or story arcs or ideas that he really likes, but those things don't advance the story. So in order to make the story better - leaner, better paced, whatever - you have to kill your darlings. You have to remove those unnecessary things. 

 

Anyway, I ramble. It's a process. You have to figure out what works for you, and what you feel you need to tell your story. 

[andysks]

Funny you said that about the guitar. I too play it and composed some. I even composed some small orchestra works. But it is true that that is different, because the song can reach a cadence, an end of a movement etc. Plus as you said, in modding there's a lot of different things going on . I will certainly read this book. No question about it. Thanks for the suggestion. Recommending a good book/game/movie is always a welcomed.

[rjshae]

I enjoy building really detailed areas with every little spot filled in; to me that makes it seem lived in. However, I suspect most players aren't going to spend much time looking around at the various odd spots and into corners, so, realistically, it likely isn't worth as much effort. Probably an expanded library of filler prefabs would be very useful--basically stuff that you'd put into unfrequented corners or side alleys: stacks of barrels; a midden mound; piles of containers for a corner; shelves of folded cloth; tavern tables with cups, plates, chairs, and a lamp; products of a carpenters workshop; that sort of thing.

[Lugaid of the Red Stripes]

Since there's nothing stopping us from uploading revision after revision as the downloads trickle on, I've kept wanting to imagine my projects as long term WIPs, once the main story arc is done, just coming back every now and then to add in some more detail, another side quest, expand out a conversation, to get that 'lived in' feel mentioned above.  It never seems to work out that way, though.  It feels like once I've developed a module enough for it to stand on its own, the need to polish and polish just goes away (until a bug report comes in).  I end up wanting to do something that justs not possible within the confines of the existing module.  In a sense, it's not the project gets completed, it just grows and grows until one day it dies, then you start another.  Players are just poking around the corpses of builder's dead dreams.

[PJ156]

 Players are just poking around the corpses of builder's dead dreams.

 

That's an uplifting thought.

 

I like to think they are playing with the grown ups while we are bringing up another child

 

PJ

[andysks]

Journal Update

 

• Companion Development

I spent the last couple of days re-writing some of the companion conversations. I also made notes on their lives and how they should behave, keeping their alignments as realistic as possible. I don't go for cliche things like a rogue who's only interested in looting, or an evil wizard who fireballs everything that stands. I thought I wanted to make something different. And I mention the rogue and the wizard because these two are the ones that gave me the hard time to begin with. Yes, a neutral rogue or evil wizard will eventually share ambitions or cause trouble. But what is the reason for this. What have they lived before meeting the PC, in order to become like that?

And why does the rogue behave more "lawfully" let's say that one would expect? Or the wizard being so cynical with every one for no apparent reason?

 

I don't use influence, even though I'd like to. I know there's a script ready for me on the vault, but I think it falls under the too much trouble I mentioned on a previous post here. Instead of that, I use events.

Making decisions, completing side quests one way or another will set variables. The companions will react based on these variables. Of course every companion has his own conversation, describing previous life and so on, but the main and deep conversations will be based on these events.

Also, not all conversations are open through simply right clicking talking to them. Some will fire every time the PC goes to the hangout spot.

 

Say you have a chance to release a man from an infernal contract. And instead of doing that, you choose to help the devil fulfill it. Going back to the hangout a cutscene will fire where a good companion will try to explain why this is wrong. The same companion, if he's in the party during the quest will try to speak of course. But the conversation he will initiate once back will be deeper, more meaningful and with greater loyalty risks.

 

• So... what did YOU do before that?

In most games I played the companions are supposed to know the problems of the PC, his quest, and decide to follow. I plan to create some conversations for them, where they will be the ones to ask the PC about his life. The player will then have some serious amount of answers to give. Each one of them will lead to different results. Since the background of the hero is preset, depending on whether you lie or be honest or simply ignore the companion... even maybe cursing your father in front of him will lead to a different feat, rewards or penalties. Alignment changes etc.

 

• Why all this trouble?

It fits the story first of all. The story of the PC is preset. It's a game after all, and excepts a custom character description which plays no role in single player(never played MP, I don't know if it does), the events that led you there are predefined. However, the PC in Return of the Exile has a very unstable character. There's a reason for it. I want to lead the PC through decisions and changes which will reflect all this.

 

Also, companions might be my favorite part in all these games. I simply want mine to be good and well written as well.

 

• What more...

Chapter 1 is missing some side quests and small stuff here and there, but I was not in the mood of doing anything right now. I instead was more into building some areas for further down the road. Chapter 2, and general global areas for side quests. Unfinished of course, but I might require some help with these two.

 

This is a desert city. Does it look good, and if any additions could be made to a desert setting which ones would be?

 

 

This one's the top of a bell tower. I tried my best, with ropes, RWS high ceiling and some gears from Rogue Dao Studios but except the name of the area it still doesn't strike me as a bell tower. Suggestions?

 

 

Thank you all.

[Arkalezth]

This is a desert city. Does it look good, and if any additions could be made to a desert setting which ones would be?

 

 

It does look good, but going into nitpicky mode, isn't that rock in the middle a little random?

As for additions, perhaps a street market?

 

This one's the top of a bell tower. I tried my best, with ropes, RWS high ceiling and some gears from Rogue Dao Studios but except the name of the area it still doesn't strike me as a bell tower. Suggestions?

 

Hmm... A bell? Or maybe a hole on the ground for the bell's ropes? I don't know if any of these is possible to make in game. If there's any little detail you cannot actually show, describe it in a floating text when entering the area.

[andysks]

Hi Arkalezth. The street market is on the other side actually. As a caravan city it gathers lots of merchants. If I recall correctly, about 8 different merchants are located there. The rock makes me quite angry to be honest. I wanted something to show where the well comes from. It doesn't fit. Maybe I will go for a fountain effect instead of waterfall. Will see.

 

The only bell I can find is a non hanging one. The Calister holes didn't really fit there. The description is a nice idea. Picture is good, but let's not forget that D&D is talk based anyway .

[rjshae]

For the desert city, it could perhaps do with some dry scrub and desert plants along the sides, with baskets, a dusky-hued nomad tent, some sand-hued walls, and clay pots?

 

The room seems fine to me--maybe you could add atmosphere with pigeon sounds, and owl, and a gusty wind. You could fatten up the ropes a little in the x-y direction, and/or attach a handle of some sort. Possibly you could experiment with a low platform underneath to emphasize the rope's special function?

[PJ156]

I will throw in my tuppence for you.

 

You might consider vegetation around all of the oasis and to a slightly greater distance away. If this is deep in the desert the local may have a few crops in small walled fields close to the oasis.

 

Small walls might be used to break up drifting sand out side the settlement.

 

Sand will pile in the direction of the prevailing wind. You might want to pick a direction and work out where the piles might be, this may make things more coherent. You might want to bring the houses closer together making us of shade to keep the streets cooler.

 

You might also use a warm brown to add some colour round the buildings to bed them in a bit.

 

I think the area looks good so I am not trying to be negative, these are just my thoughts. I have to do a desert town soon so I have been thinking about this a bit recently. 

 

The bell tower looks to me like the bottom of a bell tower as the ropes terminate above floor level which seems fine and the area looks nice. If you want the area to be the top perhaps use the alarm bell placeable to give you one or two big bells and have the ropes go through the floor. Could you use  a black tile block for the hole or use on of the RWS tile sets that has a drop built in. You can "clad" the floor in wood to give the impression of a wooden floored area in a stone building? Or use a tintable barrel tinted black to give you a black circle and use that as a hole in the floor through which the rope passes.

 

One final thought is to use the standard interior with the dipped floor, create a central lower area then use placeables to build a floor round a center hole. You could then use a black tile to make the hole look deep? 

 

Could you build it as an outside area? and literally build the inside of the tower with BCK. Use tile blocks to limit the camera like CF did for his shipwright and you could get a real sense on height and not be limited to a 2 x 2 room for what should be quite a confined space.

 

None of those ideas may be the right one but it might get the juices flowing.

 

PJ

[andysks]

Deserts seem easy at start, but when I actually put the standard homes and placeables I thought on myself that something's missing, but couldn't figure out what. All these are good suggestions, and Peter, I never take criticism negative. I asked for ideas, and I take your answer as such . And as I said the areas are incomplete pretty much. The BCK I thought as well. If I go through the trouble, meaning finding the will, I might even try to make all 3 floors of the bell tower without area transition, something like your shops I saw one time. This will certainly make it better... but boy just thinking of the work I get some headache .

As for the other suggestions I think I will implement them all. Pottery, crops, plants... everything. And if I decide to not go with the BCK I will try the tinted placeables or tile blocks.

[PJ156]

I think any area that is predominantly empty is hard to do. It makes people focus on the bits you have done

 

The bell tower could be sort of like this?

 

 

That's with RWS dungeon and BCK floor, you could add handrail perhaps and use a square tile with drop off to give the area more space?

 

PJ

[andysks]

That at least looks like a bell tower. Some crane out of the picture and some gears, together with the handrail would make it perfect I think .

[Tchos]

Also, building interiors with BCK don't require using an exterior.  I built several of my interiors with BCK placeables as interiors, such as my lighthouse rooms, using Crystal Violet's invisible room tile to lay down the walkable area, BCK walls, floors, and floor parts for the spiral staircase, and black blocks for the outside of the walls.