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[Tchos]

That leaves nearly two thirds of his plays where people didn't.

 

It seems most of his better-known works are tragedies, a style of play that saw a resurgence in the 16th century (having been very popular with the Greeks and Romans before that). Judging by the predominance of bad news over good news in modern news media, it would seem that tragedy is still the more popular (or at least the more profitable) form of entertainment where the masses are concerned.

 

Well, you did ask "how many", not "which side is greater".   And the other 2/3 aren't entirely tragedies.  That portion is divided pretty evenly between tragedies and histories, the latter of which I'd say are more akin to action movies, not like the tragedies where all the main characters die.

 

Comedies and satires were also very popular with the ancient Greeks, not just tragedies.

 

If you're going to bring in news media as entertainment, then you should also bring in modern movies, which overwhelmingly have happy endings, with a minuscule portion having downer endings.

[Dann-J]

 

If you're going to bring in news media as entertainment, then you should also bring in modern movies, which overwhelmingly have happy endings, with a minuscule portion having downer endings.

 

I believe you're talking about American movies, which are in large part overwhelmingly awful. The Americans have a lot to answer for when it comes to (so-called) entertainment - just look at what Disney has done to childrens' fairy tales, for instance. Traditionally they were a lot darker than their modern sanitised (i.e. Americanised) versions.

[Tchos]

I was talking about movies in general, where there are more happy endings than sad endings overall worldwide (are you going to discount the huge Indian cinema market?)  Doesn't matter if they're awful or not, since I'd say the news media is awful as well, and you saw fit to include it.

 

As for fairy tales, I would say you're fixating on the German ones popularised by the collections of the Grimms as the definitive ones, instead of the much earlier French and Italian ones they were mutations of (see Perrault and Basile, who wrote 100 and 200 years before the Grimms, respectively), which were nowhere near as dark.

[andysks]

Journal Update

 

Hi all, it's been a while. University workload has been so much, that I didn't have time for the toolset for the past few months. However, I have done some out of the toolset work during this time. 

 

Presentation

 

It all started when our professor for team-building and presentation told us that we had to present something to the rest of the class. People started asking what they should present, and the answer was, anything you wish. So I thought I'd present my campaign. On the months that followed, small talk started between the colleagues concerning the theme of each one's presentation. I was amazed, that when I was mentioning mine, people at first had no clue what I was talking about. First of all, they didn't know the game. The most I got depending knowledge was "Ah, isn't this the game that uses D&D rules? Heard about it once." Secondly, no one had any clue what modding is. I kept getting responses like "So... you are creating a game?", "Are you working for a company that makes a game?" and so on. Interest was high though, since many, if not all of the colleagues play games now and then.

 

Anyway, the presentation day arrived, and I had prepared a power point thing. When it was over, I was met by a wave of questions. Not because what I presented was unclear, but because the people were interested in the theme. I am writing now this for you here, because these were my impressions after the presentation and I'd like to share them

 

1. People think that what we do is extremely tough. I can't begin to count the times I heard a "whaaa?" or "look at that..." during the presentation, or while I am talking about this to someone who doesn't know. Like, when people see an empty area, and then a complete built area, or the number of options we have while creating a creature etc.
2. They might think it's tough, but they also consider it cool. The fact that someone offers so much time and dedication to a project.
3. NWN2 is pretty much forgotten to the vast majority of gaming world.
4. But: People are willing to play a game like it. If only they knew it exists or that people are working hard on modules.

Anyway, I like to think of information as a chain. If I say a couple of things, then the person who hears it will say it to his friend and so on. I'd really like to see NWN2 getting more community.

 

Dialogue Fixes

 

I got a very nice message from sirchet the other day. A while ago, while he tried my campaign for a bit, he told me that conversations need some polishing. I heard this from more sources, and now that in university we have English lessons, I can see it too. Yes, I can write and speak, but perhaps I make small mistakes here and there that I don't notice. So, the message. He told me that he had been working on the conversations, and I could use the updates if I wish. All up to me. Of course I thank him for this. It's a big thing for me, that a person who had English as mother tongue offers to do this for me. In the past Tchos offered too, and I have to get all the help I can get on the issue. So, thanks sirchet. You cannot imagine how big of a help this is for me.

[sirchet]

Ooooooops, I had thought your studies had prevented you from continuing the adventure, so I had stopped editing the dialogs.

Now that I see you are back to it, I will get right back on the dialogs.

I will continue to add the word edited to the dialog name so you can compare and choose if you want to use it.

Cheers.

[Tchos]

Yes, my offer to edit the dialogues is still open.

[andysks]

Journal Update

 

Hi all. I have done quite some work during the past days, and to my surprise everything goes really fast. I guess the toolset is like bicycle. Once learned, no matter the long hiatus one can start working again.

 

I find now that the party is about level 10, to have trouble balancing things without testing extensively. One example of course is combat, but mostly I am curious as to how people balance skill checks... say on a conversation that needs bluff, or a chest that is locked. Do you use some kind of formula for these situations?

 

Anyway, more campaign specific. I am building the main story further at the moment. This splits in two ways, kinda like in the OC when you first arrive in Neverwinter. More time for the builder, more fun for the player... I guess. I think when one will have to choose his way, will realize that there was another, and hopefully appreciate the extra work I did in order to not make a linear campaign. I will go more into this later, once I have the part ready.

 

In other news, I am currently playing a flawless game, at least that is how it looks so far. The Divinity Original Sin. Tchos had been talking about it a few months back, and since I know his taste in games is almost identical to mine, I thought I'd give it a try. To my surprise and joy, I am 20 hours in game now and I just can't stop playing. The game is seriously good and fun. I would recommend it to any RPG fan.

[Tchos]

Well, since my campaign was focused around level 10, I can tell you how I managed the skill checks.  Firstly, if I want to make it impossible for a character who never trained the skill at all, then a DC of 21 is all it needs to be, but if I want it to be at least possible, though difficult, I make it DC 20 (they must roll at least 20).

 

I generally assume that if a character trains a skill, then they probably put the maximum points possible for the level into that skill.  The maximum number of skill points a character can put into a skill is equal to current level +3, so 13 points.  If DC 20 is extremely difficult untrained, then 20+13=33 would be extremely difficult for a level 10 character focusing on that skill.  Likewise, DC 13 would be guaranteed success for a trained character, while still rather difficult for an untrained one.  So consider a range between 13 and 33 for low and high for a trained character, and 1 and 20 for an untrained one.

 

I also included bonus material for exceptionally skilled characters.  I expect some characters not only put max points into a skill, but also boost it with skill-enhancing magic items, and ability score bonuses also count to increase the skill.

 

Glad you're enjoying D:OS. 

[andysks]

Journal Update

 

Vrist

 

Vrist is the second big city, and 4th in the category village/city area that the player will visit. Perhaps I have talked previously about it, but now it is ready and I'll go more in depth about the characteristics. 

 

It is a city with its own laws. Ruled by the local powerful lord, who is promoting slavery. There are normal citizens, people with bad luck to have been born there, but the main characteristics are corrupt guards and slave merchants. Daroth protects them, and they give him percentage of the sales. Due to geographical advantage, the rest of the country hasn't made anything to stop this, since an attack from land is nearly impossible, as the city stands on the edge of a cliff. With concentrated defenses towards the sea, an attack would end before it could do any serious harm. So the city keeps operating like that. But perhaps only until now.

 

The player will visit Vrist, because he needs passage. He needs to travel somewhere where only Vrist shipowners would dare. But it is not free. And here is where the split in story comes. Something that the player has full control over.

 

As it happens, there is a person that is against the ways of lord Daroth. And the arrival of the PC will fill this NPC with hope. So it is between helping the slavers against a possible uprising, or help the opposing side against the slavery. Any one of these choices, will help getting on a ship. But it is not only about that anymore. A choice doesn't end with the end of the quest. Later in the story it all comes back. Did you do the right choice? How will  it affect your journey?

 

I know that even an evil PC might think that he doesn't want to side with the slavers. But I just hope that people who choose an evil path will stick to the role. Even if not though, it will make sense story-wise, if an evil PC makes good choices and vise versa. Everything is planned out to make sense .

 

Skill checks

 

Thank you Tchos for the information. The part I was missing was this level + 3. If I were making some thinking on my own I would find the formula, which as it seems is simple . Like for a level 10 situation, a 23 check is tough enough, even when not considering the extra bonuses they might have. And if using the gc_skill_rank, then a check of 13 wants to see if the player maxed out the given skill, and a check of 8-9, sees if a player put some points there just to have.

[Tchos]

The player will visit Vrist, because he needs passage. He needs to travel somewhere where only Vrist shipowners would dare. But it is not free. So it is between helping the slavers against a possible uprising, or help the opposing side against the slavery. Any one of these choices, will help getting on a ship.

 

I know that even an evil PC might think that he doesn't want to side with the slavers. But I just hope that people who choose an evil path will stick to the role. Even if not though, it will make sense story-wise, if an evil PC makes good choices and vise versa. Everything is planned out to make sense .

 

If I were playing an evil character, I wouldn't actually side with anyone, but I would show support for whichever side looked like they were winning, and only for as long as I needed to.  In an established regime like you describe, it sounds like the slavers.  Their politics and laws would be no concern of mine -- I just want to get on a boat and get out of there.

[kamal_]

An evil pc will not automatically side with the ruler/slavers. There are several rational reasons for an evil player not to

 

Background or personal credo: As a former slave, PC is evil but also hates slavery due to background.

PC is chaotic (loves chaos), PC might want to free slaves to create chaos in the city, either purely for the chaos or because it's part of the PC's greater plan to usurp power in the city (maybe they will re-enslave people when they have taken power).

PC is Chaotic, evil but has the viewpoint people should be free to choose for themselves.

PC views slavery as acceptable, but that slaves make for poor and disgruntled workers and so slavery as a system is a poor choice. Better results when the peons are free and work willingly.

 

A Lawful Evil PC is likely to aid the slavers. The law of the land is slavery.

 

A Neutral Evil PC is unlikely to care, as tchos said their goal does not involve anything other than securing passage, so they will likely take whatever course makes their goal easiest or quickest or is generally the most rewarding for themselves.

 

Note that the above also goes for neutrally aligned players( LN, N, CN). Too often the Neutral alignments are played as "I'm too hip and cool to be 'good', but I will only ever make decisions favoring good". Those players are Good in alignment terms, but don't admit it (and there's often no consequences for it). RPing a neutrally aligned character can mean siding with the slavers or not,.

 

In Path of Evil, you can specifically free slaves, even slaves you buy (buying and freeing is one way you can fritter away all that gold you accumulate, and has no ingame benefit) because of the above reasons. You can also support and help slavers.

[kamal_]

In The Dark Knight movies, who gets rid of Gotham's gangs and mob controlled legal/government system? That's right, The Joker.

[Arkalezth]

Yeah, playing evil doesn't necessarily imply siding with the most evil guy just for the sake of evilness, nor siding with the "good" guys necessarily imply altruism, as it may be part of a self-serving agenda. That said, I like having both options.

My two cents about skill checks:
 

Like for a level 10 situation, a 23 check is tough enough

I'd say that's not only tough enough, but maybe even too tough (i.e. too random) for the average check. At least I wouldn't go higher than that.

A character can have either a low, mid or high rank in a skill. The way I see it, possible exceptions aside, that rank should affect how easy the check is, not whether it's possible or not. 50% chance with a maxed skill is a bit too much, IMO; ~75% or so sounds better to me. That way, cross-classed skills still have a reasonable chance of success, and characters with skill focus and the like (if those exist at all ) would still get some use of their extra points.
 

And if using the gc_skill_rank, then a check of 13 wants to see if the player maxed out the given skill, and a check of 8-9, sees if a player put some points there just to have.

I don't know if this is what you mean or if it's even possible, but if it is, an alternative would be to make a check without a roll. Check the character's diplomacy. Is it 10 or more? Add a diplomacy dialogue option (which would be an automatic success if picked). Is it 9 or less? No diplomacy option is shown.

[Tchos]

It depends whether we're talking about conversations where you only get one chance at something, whether it's using the SoZ method of only showing the option if you already succeeded, or it's a take-20 or take-10 situation where you don't need to roll, etc.  My numbers were only baseline, since ability score bonuses add to them, and there are also feats and background bonuses that add to the skills, in addition to magic items and spell/potion buffs.

[Arkalezth]

I don't mean take 20, I mean no roll at all. Either your skill is high enough, or it isn't.

To put a practical example, think of something like persuasion in DAO. Persuasion options in that game require you to take 1, 2, 3 or 4 points in that skill. If you don't have those points, the persuasion dialogue isn't available, and if you do, it's just another dialogue option, with no roll involved. I don't know if such a system is possible in NWN2 (and I'm not saying it's better than traditional rolls... just throwing the idea out there).

[Tchos]

It's absolutely possible.  That's how the stock script gc_skill_rank works:

gc_skill_rank(int nSkill, int nRank)

    Determine if PC Speaker has sufficient rank in a particular skill.

    Parameters:
        int nSkill     = skill int to check
        int nRank    = minimum rank to return TRUE

[GCoyote]

When building I've been generally following Tchos' logic above. Additional considerations; is this particular check important for the plot? e.g. I've set the DC on this particular door to make sure the player gets through without giving away my intention that he go this way.

 

When playing I almost never exceed level+3+ability bonus in acquiring skills except in Disable Device. For a rogue I'll spend a feat on Skill Focus Disable Device or Nimble Fingers or perhaps Stealthy. 

[andysks]

These were some really cool ideas there describing the evil and good. And as I said, it doesn't really matter because the story makes sense no matter what . As for the skill checks, I use all situation.

 

1: The dialogue option will not show unless a certain number of skill points has been spent.

2: Roll a 20, followed by success and failure nodes.

3: Choose diplomacy lets say, followed by success and failure nodes depending on rank.

[ColorsFade]

 

1: The dialogue option will not show unless a certain number of skill points has been spent.

 

 

This is what I do currently, but wondering if this is the right approach. How do people feel about this? Do you still want the bluff option, for instance, even if you have a zero in bluff?

[kevL]

nah

[sirchet]

Myself, being that the game is DnD based, I like the randomness of even though I have a good stat/skill level I can still fail due to the fickleness of the d20.

[andysks]

Journal Update

 

Vrist

 

Hi all. It's been a while since the last update. Work has been making quite some progress. It's a lot to do, but it goes on steadily towards the end. Still many things to do, but I think at this moment with some quick calculations 80% or more is done. What I hadn't realize before I started working now on the 4th chapter of this campaign, is that a couple of years ago I took the time to create all areas in detail. It was at a moment when I was working on chapter 2 or 3, don't remember, and probably I was doing heavy scripting work or writing conversations intensely. I remember now, that I wanted a break and went forth to create all areas of the next chapter, plus some of the 5th. This, I had forgotten to write down on my progress, and therefore it was a nice surprise to see all the areas waiting for me to be populated, making the workload much less.

 

These areas, I cannot believe I have created them. I was surprised by the amount of detail to be honest. Perhaps I'll post some screenshots on of these days.

 

One other thing that is done, and it took me quite a while is the separate path on the city of Vrist. The one with the slavers and rebels. The conversations were a pain to write, what with different conditions depending on what the party did but I'm glad now they work and out of the way. All this city needs now is ambiance and 3-4 side quests which are thought through-areas ready-NPCs in place.

 

Eliminated things from final product

 

Many testers who played the previous chapters reported 40+ hours. I didn't expect this. It's too much, even for a thorough player. I had to take some things out of the final version. Things that had no reason being there other than... more time to play. These, were not yet created but existed only in the plans I had in the beginning, which means I don't lose work by erasing them from my plans.

 

1. A Fighter companion who was supposed to appear in Vrist. I thought that after 40 hours of game finding a new companion, especially a fighter makes no sense
2. An exterior area accessible from the world map for levels 10-12, where a monk companion would appear. His monastery was under attack from creatures and so on. Same reason as above, plus when it comes to it, it was just another side quest.
3. The swap exterior area where the assassin organization which hunts the party had their base. No spoilers, moved it somewhere else. Why should I create a whole new area for them?
4. The huge dungeon in the style of Watcher's Keep. The plan here was to do a dungeon completely outside of the main quest, very hard and accessible at all times, where the party could go and try their luck. Taking out a 5-6 level dungeon with rich story hurt me a bit, but I thought this would qualify more to be content on some expansion I might do.
5. An arena with many different levels and rewards, title for the PC who wins etc. Honestly, not really thought through scenario.
6. Outlands. In the beginning I thought of sending the party to the Outlands and then to Hades, but I skip the middle course now. It made no sense story wise why we would end up in Outlands.

1,2,4 and 5 all qualify actually for expansions. For this reason, and of course the ones stated, they won't be on the final version of this campaign, and this narrows down the things I have to do.

 

What is left actually? Why 80% is done?

 

In steps the things that are left are:

1. An island with a fortress is in place and all that is left is to populated by monsters and riddles
2. The layer of Hades which the party will visit. I will see if I'll do this in one area or two, plus some interiors. This will also require a mechanic to track the entrapping trait of the plane.
3. Optional Carceri areas. There is no certainty that the player will go there.

So, what... 10 areas maximum? This is good news in my books. No matter what's in there, it's still can only have content of 10 areas. I think the most of time will be on ending conversations, boss fight scripts etc. I think that during the next year I could release it, leaving the actual QT and date out due to personal doubts.

[sirchet]

Sounds great!

 

Could you post a link to the new dialogs and such. Life has been a little crazier than normal lately, but I do strongly believe I can get the editing done in time.

[andysks]

Hi sirchet. Don't worry about timetables and such. There is still work to be done before we go into dialogue fixes. I thought that I finish it first, hopefully by the end of summer, and take half a year for bug fixes and dialogue correction. Still though, this is of the top of my head .

[sirchet]

Cool, just send them when you're ready.