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[Tchos]

andysks wrote...
I think I'm gonna use the scripts Tchos permited me to, the ones for gathering xNumber from the yThing. I love such quests.

Really glad to see you'll be using those scripts.  I like that kind of quest, too.  In fact, I'm just about to write another variant of the generic gathering item quest system that will work for acquiring certain items, without having to manipulate a placeable, kill a creature, or step on a trigger.  There are a few more variants I'll need to write at some point, but I'm only writing them as the situations arise.

[andysks]

Journal

• Just keeping the work flowing

Today I worked in two areas, both finished. I try to keep the workflow, working on the campaign every day. I open the toolset after I've drunk my morning coffee and finished any RL stuff I might have. Then I slowly work on it. I have breaks in between, but the toolset is on for at least 10 hours/day, and I come back to it when I have an idea, or I feel like it. I also created today many items with specific descriptions, to give some lore and divercity on the campaign world.

• Beeing more organized

I did this mistake when Istarted building this campaign, I had no organization. I didn't have notess of what was left to do, or what was unfinished, and the only reason it got finished is because I have a good memory. Now it is different. Well, memory is still good, but recourses become so many as I entered chapter 2 that I needed something more. So I organize my NPC names, tag names with prefixes and everything, so I won't double something important. Also, on chapter one, I had to go back so many times to add the restying system, or an area name that got left as an "area001_ch_blahblah" for example. Now, I finish all these things as I build, steady and organized, so that I won't have an enormous to do list by the end.

• Level

By the end of chapter one, in my tests I reached 5 level. It is the prologue. By chapter three, I want the player to travel to Hades. Now, in my head, one does not travel the planes, or especially to Hades at level 10 or so. I am thinking that 15-20 is a good time to travel around the planes, 15 beeing a bit dangerous still. So I have two options, which will show by the end of playtesting chapter two.

• Chapter two beeing even more huge than it already is, taking you from 5 to 17ish.
• Delay the main quest line with another chapter in the material plane (add more elements, more plot).

This is because I don't think chater two will make it THIS far into levels. I am not sure, but I don't see it happening.
But... time will show .

Andy.

[ColorsFade]

andysks wrote...
Just keeping the work flowing

Consistency is the key to anything. 

I try and remind myself that even if I can only spend 15 minutes in the toolset that day, that's enough time to get something done. Could just be finishing off a conversation, or decorating a room, or making a World Map Transition work, but it's something, and it's one less thing I have to do tomorrow. 

andysks wrote...
Beeing more organized

Another key to success, IMO. 

Keep chugging away... 

As for the Chapter situation: I think expecting a chapter to take a character from level 5 to level 17 is probably a stretch. If there really is that much content, it can be broken up into multiple chapters (there must be obvious points in the story arc where one can "transition" a chapter). And if there is not that much content, then the XP granted for the content that does exists will seem excessive. 

[andysks]

I know it kinda strikes me as abnormal that a chapter could have so many levels in it. So I guess what I will do is add some plot to the main story line, so that the player will reach a higher level, without it being strange, too quick or too long for nothing. I guess I will make it so the player leaves the material plane after 4 chapters, including the prologue. That should do it. Like 4-5 levels/chapter.

Password: I know what you mean. I try to keep the main quest alive at all times, no matter what. But on the other hand, I want the player to have the freedom to do whichever side quest he wants before continuing with the main one. What I mean is, that I don't want to make the end guys strong, depending on the levels and xp you'll get from the side quests, because one might not want to do ANY side quests at all. Like in Skyrim, you can finish the main quest without even touching anything else. Of course, their scaling with monsters is different. So I came down to his system. The end guys, will be strong enough, so that a player will think: Let's do some more side quests before continuing. The plane traveling on the other hand, that I want it on high levels, is yes, something about difficulty of enemies, but also in my head it kinda makes more sense, that a PC will not go to Baator or actually... any outer plane on low levels. It's suicide. And yes, D&D is about imagination , so I could make the planes in my world a bit easier, but I don't want to .

I hope I make sense .

[ColorsFade]

Iveforgotmypassword wrote...
You have to keep the pressure on, the OC sort of lost the plot with daft side quests/ hanging around became a bit of a drag so be careful.
.

There is a magic to doing side-quests the right way, I think. They can be really fun. 

Done properly, a side-quest doesn't detract from the main story, and can even enhance it. The problem is that sometimes the writers take the side-quests so far off track that it can diminish the main arc a bit. 

One of my favorite examples of a "side-quest" that I really loved wasn't much of a quest at all. In Baldur's Gate 2 you find a doorway on the backside of a house (requires a Rogue Stone for a key, I think) that leads to a small, one-room crypt-type area under a house. This turns out to be the resting spot of Kangaxx.

Kangaxx is an amazingly tough lich fight, but defeating him results in some uber loot. Kangaxx has nothing to do with the main story - it's just a hidden location in the city - but it's one of the most challenging encounters in the game, and the loot makes it totally worth the effort.

I love this sort of side-quest: it's about a great encounter and some fun loot, and leaves an impression. 

Sometimes the side quests have a bit more story to them (The Beholder Cult in Baldur's Gate 2 is also one of my favorites, and there's quite a bit more to that quest) and that is fun as well. 

What I enjoy about a good side-quest is that, done right, it can make the whole game world feel a bit bigger and richer, and that, to me, is worthwhile. If makes the player realize that there is a whole world out there beyond what is happening with the main story. It might not be as important, but it's out there... 

Now, regarding the main story arc...

When I started writing out the main story arc for my module, I started from the endgame and sort-of worked backwards (I knew what I wanted to spend my time battling, much as andysks has decided she wants to spend time in the planes). So that was the genesis for the story. But I also wanted the player to start at level 1, and work up, so I knew I had to build a path for the player to get from A to B...

I also knew I had to get and keep the player engaged in that story from the very beginning. Otherwise, the first levels can be meaningless to the player, and you dont' want that. You want the player to spend those early levels becoming invested in the world, the people, the towns, and their own main character they'vbe created.

I also wanted the whole process of the main story arc to be fun. I wanted even the very earliest battles to be fun and challening as they can be (hence all the work on the custom AI for monsters). 

To do that, I worked out a progression of logical events that fit nicely into a linear game-level-progression,and to ensure that the events are spread-out enough to warrant a full 20 levels of play. But it took some careful thought and research to make that happen... (and I have a long way to go building it, so I am sure some things will change)

One trick you can use early in the game is to have the player involved in the main story arc events, or tangential events, as early as possible, but without the player character even realizing it. 

As an example: early in my campaign it doesn't make sense for the PC to encounter the "main badguys" - they are too high level, too reclusive, and too dangerous. There's just no way for the bad guys and the PC to meet in a context that would make any sense so early in the game.

However, it is possible for the PC to meet characters that are tangentially related to the "main badguys" and to have dealings with those characters. This doesn't necessarily fire off the main story in any obvious way to the player, but when the player reaches a certain point in the story later on they'll be able to look back and see the loose associations between their PC and those initial characters they were dealing with.

In a way, it's kind of like how the first Baldur's Gate was put together. There's an iron shortage on the sword coast, and something is behind it. Initially you're diving into mines full of kobolds thinking it might be something they are doing, but the reality is that you are several tangential steps away from the main bad guy. Each time you make a major breakthrough, you find yourself that much closer, peeling away a layer of the onion... 

So there are ways - plenty really - to get the PC involved in the main story arc without them really knowing what's going on yet, or being explosed to the main enemies and main enemy locations. Misdirection, concealment, tangential relationships... You can use all of these things to your advantage to stretch the story out. 

The other thing is: examine places in your story where you can create content that is meaningful. 

I was digging through my campaign story notes last night and noticed that somewhere between level 10 and level 15 or so I had not concretely come up with content for the main story. There was room there, but the content had to be meaningful. Walking my dog and having an hour to just think about it every day, I came up with some scenarios and events that make total sense and fit logically within the framework of my story. In fact, now that I have these events written down and record, I consider them necessity for the main story arc. So sometimes it just takes a little thinking. A jog or a walk can do wonders

Don't invent content just to invent it and have the characters level up. You might as well just allow them to find a Wand of Leveling.

Instead, I would really examine your story. I bet you anything there's some places in there where you can add meaningful content that advances the story appropriately and in a way that makes sense to the PC. 

[kamal_]

Indeed, closing the toolset and going out for a walk or some other exercise is a great way to come up with story elements. Walking helps me ruminate on things. Also a helpful idea generating activity for me is a trip to the museum to look at ancient/medieval art.

[andysks]

I often have moments when I go on Sundays to eat with the family, that I step outside for a smoke and just stare at the fields. It's not much different .

As for the plot, that was quite elaborate Colors. I think I got what you mean. Something like Bodi is BG2. You meet her, you exchange trash talk and you even have the chance to side with her(never did). And later you learn about her involvement in the main plot.

Andy now that you said that, I realized that subconsciously I have made the same thing. There are 3 groups of NPCs interested in the PC's story. There is the Assassin Organization of the empire, the clergy of Nerull, the emperor himself, and the Slave Traders. All these interact since the beginning, nearly, but the PC has no idea of the role they will all play later. So even if he's doing side quests related to them, he ends up getting more info on the main quest. And later on, when things get too big, is when everything connects.

So, I need to sit tonight and make a plan, about how much xp the PC will get roughly between all this. Then split it into more chapters so that one big one won't look bad.

[ColorsFade]

andysks wrote...

As for the plot, that was quite elaborate Colors. I think I got what you mean. Something like Bodi is BG2. You meet her, you exchange trash talk and you even have the chance to side with her(never did). And later you learn about her involvement in the main plot.

Andy now that you said that, I realized that subconsciously I have made the same thing. There are 3 groups of NPCs interested in the PC's story. There is the Assassin Organization of the empire, the clergy of Nerull, the emperor himself, and the Slave Traders. All these interact since the beginning, nearly, but the PC has no idea of the role they will all play later. So even if he's doing side quests related to them, he ends up getting more info on the main quest. And later on, when things get too big, is when everything connects.

Yes! 

And that is how, I as a player, prefer to encounter the world. The quests don't have to be directly related to the main story arc, just tangential. 

I guess I can be more specific about my campaign here, because it's not really giving away spoilers since I can refer to the main bad guys as "main bad guys" and give nothing away. And it's the prologue, so this is still very minor stuff. 

Early in the game you find yourself in the first small "town" called Triel. It's a motte and bailey fort-town, and you're just there trying to find work. You have almost nothing to your name and you're level 1. There are several small quests in town that help you up a bit, and allow you to acquire some basic gear. 

Eventually, in this prologue, you learn about a local farmer who has lost his best milking cow to a wandering undead skeleton at night. He lives fairly close to an old crypt that holds the tombs of some local heros and other folks who helped the town become what it is today. The townsfolk worry is that if a skeleton has emerged from the crypt, then something or someone must have disturbed it. You're tasked with investigating. 

You head off to delve into the crypt and find the source of the trouble. It's a fledgling necromancer. Upon defeating him and discovering his sanctuary, you find some letters he had been hanging onto, and you learn from these letters that he tried (and failed) to gain acceptance into some sort of group. The letter doesn't mention the group, it's name, goals, or their activities because the letter is directed at the fledgling necromancer and it's tone is one of disdain; the person writing the letter is tired of this particular necromancer continuing to try and currey favor with them. The author of the letter is very disparaging about the necromancer's weak skills and basically tells him, "Go learn your craft and come back, and if you can make anything if yourself after a while, then, and only then, will we have some use for you."

And so that is how the necromancer winds up in the crypt: dejected, but with a steeled resolve to learn this craft better and become someone important. He was raising and disturbing the undead and trying to hone his craft. He's a wannabe who wants to join this darker, larger, more advanced group, but he lacks the abilities, so he's went off to learn his craft better. 

The PC has no idea who this larger, darker group is, doesn't really care, and doesn't realize that he's on a collision course to eventually deal with them in a much more direct way someday... 

And this is just one example. There are other quests in the prologue that are totally unrelated to this necromancer guy, but they, too, are tangentially related to the "big bad guys" in the main story arc. The more quests the PC embarks on, and the more information he gathers, the more a picture comes into view of something 'larger' happening along the Trade Way. Before long, the PC is fully wrapped up in this story. 

Those beginning quests don't have much to do directly with the"big bad guys", but they are related to them nonetheless. 

andysks wrote...
So, I need to sit tonight and make a plan, about how much xp the PC will get roughly between all this. Then split it into more chapters so that one big one won't look bad.

And that's an easy thing to do. 

I have all my quests laid out in an Excel spreadsheet, and a column for XP upon finishing the quest. Then I have another column that uses the SUM formula to sum each row with the previous total. It makes it easy to adjust one of the XP values for a quest and see how it reflects overall in the grand scheme of things. 

Well, gotta go. 

[Groove Widdit]

I enjoyed reading your first post, Andy. I also started playing D&D when I was 12--35 years ago. I also have spent years making dungeons. Your world sounds cool.

[andysks]

Colors: Nothing more to say . Sometimes you say exactly what is in my head but I can't put it into context.

Groove Widdit: Thanks a lot. I try to give the campaign story and world lots of what I remember from my p&p days. I am not so old now, but playing groups tend to get a bit destroyed by real life . Hopefully all I dream of making here, and all my excitement as I build will be reflected on the campaign .

[Groove Widdit]

There you go. Let the Dream drive you.
P.S. What the duece is p&p?

[ColorsFade]

Groove Widdit wrote...

P.S. What the duece is p&p?

Pencil & Paper. 

It's how us old-school folks played D&D before video games were invented 

[Groove Widdit]

Oh okay. Graph paper and dice. DM hiding behind the DM screen, secretely rolling a blood-red 20--I haven't done that in a long, long time.

Modifié par Groove Widdit, 02 novembre 2013 - 12:40 .

[Tchos]

For me, it was last Wednesday.

[andysks]

Journal

• Complex things are setting me back

But why do I want them so much? I could easily make a quest that you are set to find someone, you find him, some trash talk happens as always, you kill, get the loot. Done! But when my imagination goes wild, I cannot ignore it. This guy that you are to find, I thought he could be barricaded. So in order to lure him out, you can set fire to his hay piles on his farm souroundings. Then he comes all angry, and the quest takes its way like any other quest.

I cannot make it work, I can take it as far as the things are set ablaze... but the guy never comes. In any case, I know I will make it somehow... it just delays the progress, because I want to finish something, then move to the next.

The good is though, that I actually learned a lot from trying this. For example I am about to use Tchos' scripts for collecting things, and they are so well commented... it's like a tutorial.

Of course, this is just an example. There are many more, like wanting to make my guards carry duties or a bard actually singing instead of only telling stories. If I manage to do half of the complicated (to me) things I want to do, I will be more than happy.

[Groove Widdit]

I haven't tried the NWN2 toolset yet, although I've been playing MOTB lately (is this the most beautiful video game ever made, or what?) In the NW1 toolset you might try an encounter that goes active on the hay-bale script and just plop the guy outside.

[andysks]

MotB is one of the best games I've ever played. I was waiting for such a thing for very long, since I am a big fan of Planescape:Torment. I have played it numerous times and I also try to give the same feeling to my story.
In any case, it is more complicated, it is not just one hay pile. There are like 9-10, and when you light one, a local int is set. When it reaches the needed number, it creates the creatures. I haven't tried it yet with an encounter, perhaps it would be easier. The problem with the encounter is, that the guy who will come, doesn't fight immediately. He wants to talk first. I am sure I will find a solution at some point, there is this amazing community here that helped me plenty of times.
In the meanwhile to take my mind a bit of this, I started the quest for another companion, a simpler one, just to get the feeling of achievement by the completion of it .
I also started playing ToEE for the 20th time or so.
When I reach a block, I need to work on it until I can't anymore. But sometimes I need other stuff to take my mind of .

[andysks]

Small Victory today. I managed to do something that's been bothering me since I started working in the campaign. I just couldn't figure out, how to use Speak Trigger properly. I mean, I was using them properly, but what happened when a speak trigger needed to fire at a certain story point? I tried placing them in clever spots, I tried all these OnceOnly options and MultiUse, but still I had two problems.

One was that, and I can never say this enough, I cannot know what the player will do. No matter the clever spot, the player might go there first and fire it.
So I made the first speak line conditional. This resolved to a jump back on the trigger location when a companion got left behind. It was really annoying.

And today it hit me. In CK interior in the OC, there are many cutscenes that fire when they need to. So I open the module and check the trigger. Instead of the gtr_speak_node script on the OnEnter, it has another one.

// 31_trsn_aj_gone
/*
Aldanon's dialogue about Ammon Jerro missing, triggered in CK Interior
*/
// TEvans 3/24/06

#include "ginc_trigger"
#include "ginc_companions"

void main ()
{
object oPC = GetEnteringObject();

if (!GetGlobalInt("31_bAJMissing") || StandardSpeakTriggerConditions(oPC) != TRUE)
return;

DoSpeakTrigger(oPC);
}

So I made mine like that, and now it works without jumps. This is a victory for me. I am still not good at scripting, and the toolset no matter how much you work on it, still has aspects to show. Still, a very simple script as that I could write myself. But I didn't know that the speak trigger can take anything else than the gtr_speak_node on the OnEnter .

[kamal_]

I treat the official campaigns as basically an extended demo of things you can do.

[andysks]

Exactly that. Plenty of times I saw their scripts or how stuff were placed around. Last time I took advice from it was concerning textures because there are textures for the exterior areas that blend better than other. Or how water properties are used.

[Tchos]

I'm very glad you won't be using that infuriatingly annoying Speak Trigger with the gtr_speak_node script. I really hate that thing. Especially how it stops the movement of the PC and/or companions even if the conditions aren't right.

[ColorsFade]

I use custom scripts for all speak triggers. The biggest benefit is I can control when the trigger is supposed to fire via journal conditions, or local variables on the PC (have they met someone they are supposed to? Is a party member not present?).

I don't use a lot of speak triggers though. Most of the time, when I do, I am using them right after an area transition, when I want the player to immediately have a conversation before doing anything else.

[andysks]

I also only use them like that, and when I want an introduction cutscene. Also when I want the PC to see something without taking part in the convo.
In any case, this "discovery", is very important for me. I just didn't know that the speak trigger could work without the gtr_speak_node, but with a cvustom as well.

Anyways, I made some big progress, still working, will update some journal later.

Andy.