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[What a Twist]

I always come to an awkward point when I reach this quest. Morrigan's mother helps marick in the book, and she saves your life. She doesn't seem to be evil, other than the whole... dragony, part.

So im hoping anyone with more knowledge of the games lore can shed some light on the "behind the scenes" part of this. Either way I try to go with what my character would do, given his personality, but I am honestly confused about whats wrong and whats right here.




Also, rescpect to the person, or people, who wrote these characters and that quest. Even knowing the outcome I can only see shades of grey here, no clearly good path.

Modifié par What a Twist, 19 janvier 2010 - 02:55 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Thing with Flemeth, you just never know. It usually comes down to her word vs Morrigans. There does seem to be some proof, however, that Morrigan was telling the truth about Flemeth possessing her. Mainly, in subtle hints in Flemeth's comments, and the description of the Robes of Poessession.



In the end, it's up to how you role play to decide. If you like, or are in love with Morrigan, I'd imagine that doing what she asks is the better option. Flemeth saved you, but she now possibly threatens your friend/love.



If you dislike her, or believe Flemeth, or simply don't care what Flemeth does with Morrigan, you can trick Morrigan and spare Flemmeth.



But there is no "right" descision here.

[LaztRezort]

I believe the writers are being rather closed-mouthed about the whole situation (or, as they might say, "leaving their options open").



Right and wrong are difficult to determine when you get yourself tangled in the webs of witches (especially "sneaky witch-theives").

[What a Twist]

Sort of an odd decision, eh? "They're both evil bastards, pick one."

[kgav]

Yeah, my first play through I sat there for a good long time thinking about what to do. I wanted to believe Morrigan but Flemeth is the one who saves the PC and Alistair. Everything you learn supports Morrigan's version of the story but still the way they wrote Flemeth's dialog at that confrontation lead me to kind of trust her.



I said to hell with it and killed Flemeth, my character loves Morrigan and has to believe that what Morrigan does tell me is true although I know she does not tell the PC everything.

[Xalena]

I know how you feel. I skipped that quest on my first playtrough but tried on second one.
I was digging codexs in hope that I ll find something what will help me in decision but... I really don't like whole that Flemeth&Morrigan thing really. I wish that i spared myself on this playtrough aswell >.<

I wanted to screw Morrigan but changed my mind after founding out what happens if you lie to Morrigan that you killed Flemeth. And i felt bad after our talking because she was somehow too nice and seemed honest and she showed emotions and appreciation and... So reloaded and choosed to kill Flemeth in the end. They are both so damn intelligent manipulative...

Haven't read book yet but I have read on Wiki that she helped Marick yes but he had to make some promise. And then if you accept Morrigan offer in the end you get "A Dark promise" that bugs me even more... meh... Flemeth says: Taking Morrigan is payment for saving your lifes--->see "a Dark promise". She caught us in her witch web like she did with Maric...I hope theres is some way out without consequences but one is for sure whatever you decide is bad...bah I lost myself in this

Modifié par Xalena, 19 janvier 2010 - 04:23 .

[legbamel]

I always want to kill Flemeth for the XP, but I'd so rather have her tha Morrigan. Why can't I recruit Flemeth and we can come back and kill Morrigan in some other form?

[What a Twist]

legbamel wrote...

I always want to kill Flemeth for the XP, but I'd so rather have her tha Morrigan. Why can't I recruit Flemeth and we can come back and kill Morrigan in some other form?

Having a 30 ft tall dragon follow you around, while cool, would get annoying im sure.

It would be even worse than shale I think...

"BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM" "I think I sense darkspawn coming!" "BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM" "What?" "BOOM BOOM BOOM" "I said... oh never mind..." "BOOM BOOM BOOM BOOM" "What?"

[BeljoraDien]

What a Twist wrote...

Sort of an odd decision, eh? "They're both evil bastards, pick one."

I know... I came up with a 'compromise' by killing Flemeth, then destroying the Grimoire. But Morrigan didn't even care. There was just one extra line "Even without Mother's Grimoire." in the dialogue when I went back to her... Makes me wonder if she even wanted the book or just wanted her mother dead.

[Xetirox]

BeljoraDien wrote...

What a Twist wrote...

Sort of an odd decision, eh? "They're both evil bastards, pick one."

I know... I came up with a 'compromise' by killing Flemeth, then destroying the Grimoire. But Morrigan didn't even care. There was just one extra line "Even without Mother's Grimoire." in the dialogue when I went back to her... Makes me wonder if she even wanted the book or just wanted her mother dead.

Well, Morrigan seems insistent that you grab the grimoire, which made me think the entire thing was a ploy on her part just to get rid of her mother and learn all of her secrets. Being as Flemeth offers that you just take it, however, it's probably not going to help Morry anyway...

[Sidney]

Flemeth didn't "save" me, she saved a tool that will help her. I don't see it an an act of altruism and so I feel no loyalty on that front. I can see how messed up Morrigan is and that's all about Flemeth. I've killed her with no reservations save one time just to not do it.

[What a Twist]

Whatever her motivations, she still saved you. I see her as somewhat of a grey warden. She does what she has to to stop the world being destroyed, sure she has her own motivations but she gets the job done.

[Xalena]

Who likes to be someone's tool really? She is selfish and she likes lies very much and maybe even holding life of you and Alistair (and dog) in her hands and playing with it like she does with Morrigan's. Tools are usefull but what when they are not usefull anymore...?

Modifié par Xalena, 19 janvier 2010 - 06:05 .

[What a Twist]

Xalena wrote...

Who likes to be someone's tool really? She is selfish and she likes lies very much and maybe even holding life of you and Alistair (and dog) in her hands and playing with it. Tools are usefull but when they stopped to be usefull...?

Well, considering her tools are more than capable of beating her to a pulp, I doubt she would do anything when they stopped being useful.

Even if she didn't really care for the lives of the grey wardens she saved, she still did it. If you read the book "The Calling" by david gaider, it really shows just how twisted the wardens can be in their quest to stop the darkspawn. They're not the "good guys".

Modifié par What a Twist, 19 janvier 2010 - 06:11 .

[Xalena]

You are probably in right but I prefer to stay very carefull.

Modifié par Xalena, 19 janvier 2010 - 06:22 .

[Napalm Jim]

Well, Morrigan seems insistent that you grab the grimoire, which made me think the entire thing was a ploy on her part just to get rid of her mother and learn all of her secrets. Being as Flemeth offers that you just take it, however, it's probably not going to help Morry anyway...

I used to think the same thing myself, about it being a ploy by Morrigan and all, but if you press the issue with her she will literally beg you to help her.  Morrigan isn't really the sort of person to beg from anyone, which leads me to believe that she was genuinely terrified of what Flemeth had planned for her.

[What a Twist]

Napalm Jim wrote...

Well, Morrigan seems insistent that you grab the grimoire, which made me think the entire thing was a ploy on her part just to get rid of her mother and learn all of her secrets. Being as Flemeth offers that you just take it, however, it's probably not going to help Morry anyway...

I used to think the same thing myself, about it being a ploy by Morrigan and all, but if you press the issue with her she will literally beg you to help her.  Morrigan isn't really the sort of person to beg from anyone, which leads me to believe that she was genuinely terrified of what Flemeth had planned for her.

I would be too.

Morrigan does seem to honestly be afraid and want help, but she also wants that book. I suppose it does save you in the end if you want, but even then theres more to it than she tells you.

[EthanDirtch]

I'm not entirely sure that the "kill or let live" decision forced on you by Morrigan was not part of Flemeth's plan all along.



Firstly, there's the question of Flemeth can ever truly be killed (unlikely). Second, aside from the Robes of Possession, there's never been a definitive statement regarding the supposed 'ritual'. Is it a ritual at all, or is it just an heir taking on the vacated position? Given how vague and cryptic Flemeth was and could be, it's entirely possible that 'Flemeth' isn't so much a real name as it is a title, like 'Sten'. Perhaps 'Flemeth' is the name assumed by whoever the most prominent Witch of the Wilds is at the time?



Thirdly, during the 'Ritual' at the end of the game, Morrigan states that it was always Flemeth's intent for her daughter to go through with the Ritual with the Warden (or Alistair). So, how sure are we that the Grimoire and the decision involving Flemeth was not something she intended (Morrigan's direct knowledge not withstanding)?



The fourth and final circumstantial evidence involves the other Daughters. Can we truly ever say or assume that Morrigan is simply the first to know of the Ritual, at least without Flemeth herself declaring it so? Morrigan is just smarter than the others, luckier (in finding the first 'Grimoire'), and having such a resourceful and powerful ally in the Warden? And the fact that Flemeth was so ready to part with her Grimoire...





In any event, in my first two playthroughs I opted to trick Morrigan as in both cases my character never fully trusted her. My Wardens knew they could count on Morrigan to do two things: save her own skin, and increase her power. Having Flemeth in their pocket was not a wholly bad idea.

[Palentor]

On my first playthrough I let Flemeth live due to some conflicting thoughts crossing my mind at that moment. Both are manipulative, so both want you to 'dance to their tune', so why don't sing? Meaning if Morrigan should betray me, and you can't be ever sure with her at that, I would leave her a nice surprise. Should she really be honest with me, I would then help her face Flemeth.

Never trust a powerful and strong person seeming vulnerable and weak all of a sudden.

[Caelamia]

On my last playthrough, I accidentally chose "I'm sorry Morrigan, isn't there another way?" before the ritual. All I can say is that I never expected her (at 100 Friendly, and had done her personal quest etc.) to do a 180 flip and freak out at me. The vitriol Morrigan spat at me because I wouldn't do what she wanted just set my opinion of her for good, despite giving her a second chance as I initially hated her the first time I played this game.

After everything I'd done to help her, I believed we had some semblance of a friendship. But now I refuse to help her as a friend in future playthroughs and will just do the Flemeth fight etc. for my own gain. I don't trust her and I don't like her.

I believe that Flemeth and Morrigan had everything planned from the start. That Morrigan is pretending that she cares or sees you as a friend just to achieve her goals. Remember her scathing line to Alistair upon entering Lothering: "I can be friendly when I desire to. Alas, desiring to be more intelligent does not make it so."

That is notwithstanding the possibility that it's been Flemeth since an undeterminable point, having possessed her daughter when she was caught unawares. Just my thoughts anyway...

[asaiasai]

On my first play through i killed Flemeth because i thought that is what you were supposed to do, and that Flemeth had some uber loot. I have to say that knowing how it all turns out i decided on my repeat plays to do it different.



SPOILERS





I spare Flemeth everytime for a few reasons;



1) Flemeth saved Allister and I and i will not repay that kindness with death.



2) Morrigan imho can not be trusted in reality anymore than perhaps Flemeth can, but Flemeth has been around for a long time, her track record is pretty solid.



3) Sure there are rumors about Chasind men and Flemeth, see the mating habits of the black widow spider. Flemeth has a knowledge, a foresight, and an understanding of what is necessary to prevent a DS take over of the world. That kind of knowledge is something the world needs, someone who was around long enough to probably have seen the previous blight first hand.



4) Flemeth for all her power seems to have chosen not to use it for her own personal gain. While not exactly benevolent the fact that with her power Flemeth is NOT the ruler of the world i think speaks volumes about her.



5) With the two grimwares in her possession there is no guarantee that Morrigan herself will not do to her daughters exactly what she "claims" Flemeth will do to her. The choice is between Morrigan who through the game has shown a self serving mindset versus Flemeth who for all i have been able to acertain has no desires other than to be left alone.



For the 5 reasons above i always choose to spare Flemeth, lie to Morrigan and have no reservation about that course of action. Oh and i really really really really HATE Morrigan anyway so the decision was easy for me to make on subsequent plays, i really do feel sorry for ganking Flemeth on my first play as well.



Asai

[Lotion Soronarr]

EVERYTHING Morrigan tells you can be a lie. That whole "broken bird" thing can be just an act.

She helped you out, but it could be jsu for her own goals.



EVERYTHING Flemeth tells you can be a lie. It doesn't help that she's deliberately criptical.

She saved your life, but it could be just for her own goals.





In the end I choose the "F*** this! I'm done with both of you!" option.

Let them deal with it themselves.

[Chas1024]

What a Twist wrote...

Sort of an odd decision, eh? "They're both evil bastards, pick one."

Morrigan can't be all bad, dog likes her and he's a very astute judge of character.

[Xandurpein]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

EVERYTHING Morrigan tells you can be a lie. That whole "broken bird" thing can be just an act.
She helped you out, but it could be jsu for her own goals.

Well... theoretically that could be said about anyone in the game. I don't see why her opening up to you should be less believable than what anybody else in the party say. If she is such a good actress that she manage to keep up a convincing lie about the whole relationship with you, she could have managed to sell a much better package to decieve you and lied about elements of the Dark Ritual to make it a lot more apetizing.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Chas1024 wrote...
Morrigan can't be all bad, dog likes her and he's a very astute judge of character.

Well, he doesn't jump on Flemeth either.