not only does she save u but she saved the treaties with out those u cant compel the other races to join u in your fight in the long run i think morgan is the real threat with her old god child in the end
Lying to morrigan about her mother.
Débuté par
What a Twist
, janv. 19 2010 02:53
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#27
Guest_Shavon_*
Posté 19 janvier 2010 - 01:51
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This decision was a hard one. Flemeth saves Maric, the PC and Alistair, the treaties. Basically, without her initial help, victory over the Blight in Fereldan may not have been possible.
As far as my PC's knows, Morrigan, her best friend's body will be snatched someday by her 'mother', a woman who raised Morrigan just to preserve her unnatural lifespan. So, the loyalty factor always wins out in this case. But it's still tricky. If you don't kill Flemeth, having Morrigan come back to haunt you would be worse, imo.
As far as my PC's knows, Morrigan, her best friend's body will be snatched someday by her 'mother', a woman who raised Morrigan just to preserve her unnatural lifespan. So, the loyalty factor always wins out in this case. But it's still tricky. If you don't kill Flemeth, having Morrigan come back to haunt you would be worse, imo.
#28
Posté 19 janvier 2010 - 01:57
blademaster7
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Yeah, she saved both you and Alistair and she "protected" your treaties but don't forget that she was just planning to use you to get the child and you'll be left as a footnote to the whole Flemeth lifespan.
Flemeth was probably the only person in Ferelden who was happy to hear about the Archdemon. Do you really think she cared about saving you and then encouraging you to build an army?
Morrigan was just a tool. She was told to accompany the Wardens, get the child and report back. She changed the plan obviously and her motives for taking the child for herself are unknown(?).
Flemeth was probably the only person in Ferelden who was happy to hear about the Archdemon. Do you really think she cared about saving you and then encouraging you to build an army?
Morrigan was just a tool. She was told to accompany the Wardens, get the child and report back. She changed the plan obviously and her motives for taking the child for herself are unknown(?).
#29
Posté 19 janvier 2010 - 02:25
_Aine_
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I don't know, for some reason I just can't stop seeing the two of them as somehow separate parts of the same entity or power. I have yet to kill Flemeth, and it isn't necessarily that I am rewarding her generosity at saving my skin because I am sure she had her reasons...but more that I am not 100% convinced a) she even *can* be destroyed any more than killing an evil person destroys all the evil in the world... and 
she clearly is powerful enough that there is an unknown reason for what she does and maybe more importantly does *not* do.
Part of me says "What if this old god to be born, *is* Flemeth as her current lodgings were getting up there in age. Power, whether political, financial, or magical is ultimately the easiest corrupter in the world. If you had the power of Flemeth, what would stop you from just ruling the world in whichever way you desire?
This makes me distrust Morrigan, because despite her "my MOTHER" laments I still have a nagging suspicion that there was no more angst at her mothers actions towards her than nattering people that have existed for far too long together and squabbling as long time companions tend to.
I don't think for a second that what is transpiring wasn't a plan long before I ever stepped foot in the Wilds. Is Flemeth herself a manifestation of the Old God Morrigan speaks of? I am tending to that thought atm.
My current pondering is more about the Flemeth/Darkspawn/Archdemon thing... Is the darkspawn threat the only thing bigger than flemeth and so she is using her means, and the wardens to her end to help SAVE the world or is it a competing power that she seeks to have someone help destroy because she senses it is bigger than even her? Hmmmm.
These questions are what help me roleplay out different options though -- on at least the first time i spared loghain and did not go through with Morrigans ritual..I did so because I saw making that *deal* and allowing an unknown force into the world basically in a bid to save my own skin ( or Alistairs) as very much parallel to Loghain deciding that the situation at Ostagar was too far gone to be saved and having your people retreat leaving those fighting as pawns in your bit to save yourself ( and your beliefs of what got you into that situation in the first place. )
she clearly is powerful enough that there is an unknown reason for what she does and maybe more importantly does *not* do. Part of me says "What if this old god to be born, *is* Flemeth as her current lodgings were getting up there in age. Power, whether political, financial, or magical is ultimately the easiest corrupter in the world. If you had the power of Flemeth, what would stop you from just ruling the world in whichever way you desire?
This makes me distrust Morrigan, because despite her "my MOTHER" laments I still have a nagging suspicion that there was no more angst at her mothers actions towards her than nattering people that have existed for far too long together and squabbling as long time companions tend to.
I don't think for a second that what is transpiring wasn't a plan long before I ever stepped foot in the Wilds. Is Flemeth herself a manifestation of the Old God Morrigan speaks of? I am tending to that thought atm. My current pondering is more about the Flemeth/Darkspawn/Archdemon thing... Is the darkspawn threat the only thing bigger than flemeth and so she is using her means, and the wardens to her end to help SAVE the world or is it a competing power that she seeks to have someone help destroy because she senses it is bigger than even her? Hmmmm.
These questions are what help me roleplay out different options though -- on at least the first time i spared loghain and did not go through with Morrigans ritual..I did so because I saw making that *deal* and allowing an unknown force into the world basically in a bid to save my own skin ( or Alistairs) as very much parallel to Loghain deciding that the situation at Ostagar was too far gone to be saved and having your people retreat leaving those fighting as pawns in your bit to save yourself ( and your beliefs of what got you into that situation in the first place. )
Modifié par shantisands, 19 janvier 2010 - 02:36 .
#30
Posté 19 janvier 2010 - 02:25
saori_shinjiro
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I... I really liked Flemeth, (and not just because she had Captain Janeaway's voice) so the decision was really hard for me as well.
I don't doubt that Flemeth was truly planning to posses Morrigan. The Robe of Possession is the most definite proof you have to it. As the description says, the robe bears the sole purpose of weakening Morrigan during that dark deed. And although Flemeth was quite cryptic with what her plans truly were, she never did deny the Warden's accusation. If you try to confront her about the truth, she muses on saying something along the lines of, "The truth, she says. As if it were some [something something]. No. Far better the lie. Far better the thoughts of a mother's love and [something something something]."
That statement alone says that the whole mother daughter relationship Flemeth had with Morrigan was nothing more than a facade, though I do believe with all my heart that Flemeth still loved Morrigan to whatever extent she was capable of loving. It's just that Morrigan had a purpose and Flemeth would see her plan through.
As for the Dark Ritual, Flemeth might have actually considered that in her plans. Don't you think it would be convenient to posses a pregnant Morrigan? That way, Flemeth would already have a possible replacement in the future. If it was a son on the other hand, the soul of an old god is something quite precious, even to the witch of the wilds.
I don't doubt that Flemeth was truly planning to posses Morrigan. The Robe of Possession is the most definite proof you have to it. As the description says, the robe bears the sole purpose of weakening Morrigan during that dark deed. And although Flemeth was quite cryptic with what her plans truly were, she never did deny the Warden's accusation. If you try to confront her about the truth, she muses on saying something along the lines of, "The truth, she says. As if it were some [something something]. No. Far better the lie. Far better the thoughts of a mother's love and [something something something]."
That statement alone says that the whole mother daughter relationship Flemeth had with Morrigan was nothing more than a facade, though I do believe with all my heart that Flemeth still loved Morrigan to whatever extent she was capable of loving. It's just that Morrigan had a purpose and Flemeth would see her plan through.
As for the Dark Ritual, Flemeth might have actually considered that in her plans. Don't you think it would be convenient to posses a pregnant Morrigan? That way, Flemeth would already have a possible replacement in the future. If it was a son on the other hand, the soul of an old god is something quite precious, even to the witch of the wilds.
#31
Posté 19 janvier 2010 - 02:50
Rhinna
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I'm not sure about anything. I killed Flemeth first run through, but I let her live the second, and I didn't even have to lie to Morrigan, she was so happy to get the book, she didn't even ASK about her mother.
Third playthrough I will let Flemeth live again. There is too much she has DONE for Ferelden and the Grey Wardens (that has already been mentioned) to let her die. She had Maric in her hut for hours giving him glimpses of the future. Notice she didn't do the same for Loghain...She even told Maric Loghain would betray him more than once, and each time would be worse. She saved the two Grey Wardens, she preserved their treatises, because she knew a Blight was coming, she told Maric. Oh, and it was HER idea to have Maric and Loghain delivered to her in the first place. The Dalish call her the "Woman of many years" or something to that effect, NOT a witch.
It was HER idea to send Morrigan along, simply for the Dark Ritual prior to the final battle with the archdemon. Morrigan says it was her mother's idea all along to have Morrigan DO the ritual. Why? again, to preserve the Grey Wardens lives. Will the spawn be an "old god"? who knows if Morrigan is even TELLING you the truth about that as well?
There is definitely more to Flemeth than meets the eye. I think her isolation in the Kocari Wilds is for a reason - what that is, I don't know...to avert suspicion, to avoid meddling, who knows? I think the stories might be made up as well, about her many daughters - they worked - people steered clear.
My personal theory is that she is an Arlathan elf who survived/escaped the human onslaught. That would explain Morrigan being human (if she is really Flemeth's daughter) human + elf = human. The knowledge of old and obscure magic (although the Tevinters also possess a lot of this knowledge)
Anyway, back to the subject at hand :-) - I've played both ways, killing Flemeth, and not killing Flemeth, and the epilogue plays out the same. You see Morrigan heading towards the Frostback mountains, and she may or may NOT be pregnant. I've done the ritual both times, this third playthrough I'm going to sacrifice Loghain for laughs and giggles and let Morrigan throw a hissy fit.
Third playthrough I will let Flemeth live again. There is too much she has DONE for Ferelden and the Grey Wardens (that has already been mentioned) to let her die. She had Maric in her hut for hours giving him glimpses of the future. Notice she didn't do the same for Loghain...She even told Maric Loghain would betray him more than once, and each time would be worse. She saved the two Grey Wardens, she preserved their treatises, because she knew a Blight was coming, she told Maric. Oh, and it was HER idea to have Maric and Loghain delivered to her in the first place. The Dalish call her the "Woman of many years" or something to that effect, NOT a witch.
It was HER idea to send Morrigan along, simply for the Dark Ritual prior to the final battle with the archdemon. Morrigan says it was her mother's idea all along to have Morrigan DO the ritual. Why? again, to preserve the Grey Wardens lives. Will the spawn be an "old god"? who knows if Morrigan is even TELLING you the truth about that as well?
There is definitely more to Flemeth than meets the eye. I think her isolation in the Kocari Wilds is for a reason - what that is, I don't know...to avert suspicion, to avoid meddling, who knows? I think the stories might be made up as well, about her many daughters - they worked - people steered clear.
My personal theory is that she is an Arlathan elf who survived/escaped the human onslaught. That would explain Morrigan being human (if she is really Flemeth's daughter) human + elf = human. The knowledge of old and obscure magic (although the Tevinters also possess a lot of this knowledge)
Anyway, back to the subject at hand :-) - I've played both ways, killing Flemeth, and not killing Flemeth, and the epilogue plays out the same. You see Morrigan heading towards the Frostback mountains, and she may or may NOT be pregnant. I've done the ritual both times, this third playthrough I'm going to sacrifice Loghain for laughs and giggles and let Morrigan throw a hissy fit.
Modifié par Rhinna, 19 janvier 2010 - 02:51 .
#32
Posté 19 janvier 2010 - 06:34
Zecele
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not only does she save u but she saved the treaties with out those u cant compel the other races to join u in your fight in the long run i think morgan is the real threat with her old god child in the end
Flemeth pretty clearly states in dialog her only reason for both of those actions was her own self preservation. She's convinced that a blight would kill her no matter what her power...I.E. she seems to know that Grey Wardens are needed. She also states that this blight is more serious than anyone realizes. She wouldn't have batted a lash to save the PC or Alistair otherwise. I doubt she would have maintained the documents either.
My decision was pretty easy based on my interactions with Morigan. Morigan is self serving in the extreme but I can't recall one instance where she outright lied to me. She clearly didn't fear Flemeth when she first joined the party. Also, she relays stories of what Flemeth has done with little inflection in them in trying to get you to act. It's not until she perceives Flemeth as a threat that she tries to get any action out of you....and even then it's not in the form of subtle manipulation. She outright asks if you'll kill her.
#33
Posté 19 janvier 2010 - 06:59
ajm317
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My decision was pretty easy based on my interactions with Morigan. Morigan is self serving in the extreme but I can't recall one instance where she outright lied to me.
As I recall there is a point early in the game wher you can ask Morrigan the question why she is with the party. She will respond that it's because Flemeth sent her. If you ask her why Flemeth sent her she'll say she doesn't know.
I could be fuzzy on the specifics but I definitely remember a "I don't know why Flemeth sent me" because I was looking for it on my 2nd playthrough.
Obviously this contradicts her statements at the end of the game where she reveals Flemeths plan from the beginning was to use the warden to get the Old God's soul. We know this knowledge did not come to Morrigan via a Grimoire because she will tell you the plan regardless of whether you recover either of them.
So Morrigan does lie to you.
#34
Posté 19 janvier 2010 - 07:07
Zecele
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Obviously this contradicts her statements at the end of the game where she reveals Flemeths plan from the beginning was to use the warden to get the Old God's soul.
If I recall correctly she's just assuming that Flemeth sent her for that reason. I gathered that she didn't even know about the ritual until reading Flemeth's grimoire.
#35
Posté 19 janvier 2010 - 07:12
ajm317
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If I recall correctly she's just assuming that Flemeth sent her for that reason. I gathered that she didn't even know about the ritual until reading Flemeth's grimoire.
Again, we know this isn't the case because, as far as I know, the conversation is unchanged if you do not give her either grimoire.
Besides, it would make little sense for Flemeth to send Morrigan out to perform a dark ritual without first informing her said ritual existed.
Modifié par ajm317, 19 janvier 2010 - 07:16 .
#36
Posté 19 janvier 2010 - 07:26
pepe5454
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I can't help but wonder if Flemeth and Morrigan are still on plan. Perhaps Morri is still serving mom and mom's plan is to take over this god baby. What if this is the deal Flemeth stuck with morri in order to spare her "you get with child and I take that over otherwise I take over your body" Perhaps mom's current vessel must be destroyed to free her spirit to prepare and Flemeth puts on a fight to make it look good to you. Morri may actually still hate and fear her mom but I know lots of people have parrents that do terrible things to them but they will still side with the parents if it comes down to it or an abusive wife/husband. It's just another thought to throw in there.
#37
Posté 19 janvier 2010 - 08:54
Atranes
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Other than when I was romancing Morrigan, I don't really have a good reason for killing Flemeth. That said, I usually kill Flemeth but just for the XP from killing a dragon. I haven't figured it out, but from a pure XP point of view, how much is each option (kill/lie) worth?
#38
Posté 19 janvier 2010 - 09:00
MGeezer
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I think this is a tough call also, but I do know that one of my characters (female) lied about killing Flemeth and then just felt absolutely awful when Morrigan gave her that "only friend I have ever had" speech.
I also had an odd perhaps illogical connection--some of my character might trust Morrigan with an Old God, but none would choose this solution with Flemeth still around--did anyone else have this thought?
I also had an odd perhaps illogical connection--some of my character might trust Morrigan with an Old God, but none would choose this solution with Flemeth still around--did anyone else have this thought?
Modifié par MGeezer, 19 janvier 2010 - 09:03 .
#39
Posté 19 janvier 2010 - 09:09
Sylrien
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I think that Morrigan was sent with us with knowledge of the ritual. I think this whole Blight was an opportunity for Flemeth to obtain the soul of an old god, and to eventually possess it. The only wrench in her plan was Morrigan finding the grimoire in the magetower. I think from at that point on, Morrigan decided to do what she could to mimic Flemeth's plan, eventually possessing the vessel with the old god in it herself.
My elf decided to let Flemeth live- there was no assurance she would have stayed dead, and at that point realized that Morrigan was equally duplicitous as Flemeth might be. She also owed Flemeth her life, and that was payback. As soon as the words "Lovely Morrigan has you dancing to her tune...." That jolted Syl back to reality.
It was also reinforced by the revelation about Leliana, especially when Wynne mentioned her as 'guileless' and relatively innocent. Leliana, while a good soul, is not guileless and innocent, and her talk to my Warden about manipulating men (and how she was doing something similar to Alistair) really caused her to put a shield up. Granted, in the official version of Syl's story, she sacrificed herself rather than agree to Morrigan's plan, because it was too good to be true.
My elf decided to let Flemeth live- there was no assurance she would have stayed dead, and at that point realized that Morrigan was equally duplicitous as Flemeth might be. She also owed Flemeth her life, and that was payback. As soon as the words "Lovely Morrigan has you dancing to her tune...." That jolted Syl back to reality.
It was also reinforced by the revelation about Leliana, especially when Wynne mentioned her as 'guileless' and relatively innocent. Leliana, while a good soul, is not guileless and innocent, and her talk to my Warden about manipulating men (and how she was doing something similar to Alistair) really caused her to put a shield up. Granted, in the official version of Syl's story, she sacrificed herself rather than agree to Morrigan's plan, because it was too good to be true.
#40
Posté 19 janvier 2010 - 09:09
Atranes
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@MGeezer - even if you "kill" Flemeth, I'm not sure she's really gone. The line that keeps coming to me is when you're talking about Morrigan's request, Flemeth says that this is a story she's often heard and occasionally told. That suggests "Flemeth" has been killed more than once. I really like the ambiguity associated with the Flemeth character, and am disappointed I'm so hopelessly mercenary for the XPs that I kill her each time.
Modifié par Atranes, 19 janvier 2010 - 09:10 .
#41
Posté 19 janvier 2010 - 09:56
Treason1
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I like the idea someone put forward that Flemeth might be a manifestation (or is possessed by) part of one of the Old Gods. Not necessarily the Old God of Beauty that is the Archdemon in the game, but one of the later ones, perhaps, or a lingering part of one that's already been killed.
If a lingering part of one that's been killed, then it knows that the main part of it's soul has been destroyed and is looking for the right vessel to re-inhabit to attain it's "godhood" status again.
If it's part of the current Archdemon or one of the two remaining, then maybe it was sent out to find a way for the Old God to avoid dying completely when killed by a Grey Warden, or by passing the corruption completely.
If a lingering part of one that's been killed, then it knows that the main part of it's soul has been destroyed and is looking for the right vessel to re-inhabit to attain it's "godhood" status again.
If it's part of the current Archdemon or one of the two remaining, then maybe it was sent out to find a way for the Old God to avoid dying completely when killed by a Grey Warden, or by passing the corruption completely.
