250 réponses à ce sujet

[Bleachrude]

Huh...

Reading all these threads, people seem to forget a couple of things.

1. The chantry was created BECAUSE pf the excesses pf the mages of Tevinter...and what did the Tevinters do once they were free of Chantry control? Go exactly back to their slaving/murdering ways.

2. The chantry _treatment of mages IS_ the middle ground. People tend to forget this. The quanari would rip out the tongue of mages and sew up their lips while the tevinters would have everyone else as their slave.

3. Magic in THEDAS is dangerous in of itself.

People tend to eqate the chantry with the catholic church but the catholic church never had to deal with magic.....

[ultimatekotorfan]

cjones91 wrote...

ultimatekotorfan wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Mages are torn from their families,are constantly told how they are monsters and they are a plague to everyone around them.

Corruption doesn't equal "Things I don't like."
In order for something to be corrupted, it has to have deviated from the original goal. The Circles functions as they are supposed to.

The Chantry attacks anyone who does'nt worship their god and have destroyed countless cultures because of it,

Hyperbole much?
The only culture the Chantry ever destroyed was that of the Dales and there is plenty of evidence that suggests the elves attacked first and also commited attrocities such as the sacking of Val-Royeaux.

anyone who isn't Andrastian is a heretic and are hunted down by the Chantry.

World of Thedas page 45 "The old ways are disappearing, but the Chantry does not demand their removal or promote hatred against the old deities. The Maker simply stands above them."

The circles were originally intended to be places of learning where mages can practice their magic without fear,instead they became golden prisons where they are watched by people who are trained to hate them.The Chantry has destroyed not just just the Dales,but tribes are often hunted down simply because they worship another deity.

Not to mention Andraste wanted all religions to be erased so that people would worship the Maker which fits the Chantry's mandate of spreading the Chant to all corners of the world,the problem is they can't do that if people practice other religions so the Chantry wipes them out.

Except for the part where everything you said is demonstrably false.

Can you explain why it's false?

Because the Chantry has never wiped out a civilization because of their belief system. They only marched on the Dales after the elves sacked Val Royeaux, and they don't call for the death of heretics. You are conjuring false claims from thin air in order to support your own idea of what the Chantry should be due to it's similarities to other religious organizations.

[cjones91]

Bleachrude wrote...

Huh...

Reading all these threads, people seem to forget a couple of things.

1. The chantry was created BECAUSE pf the excesses pf the mages of Tevinter...and what did the Tevinters do once they were free of Chantry control? Go exactly back to their slaving/murdering ways.

2. The chantry _treatment of mages IS_ the middle ground. People tend to forget this. The quanari would rip out the tongue of mages and sew up their lips while the tevinters would have everyone else as their slave.

3. Magic in THEDAS is dangerous in of itself.

People tend to eqate the chantry with the catholic church but the catholic church never had to deal with magic.....

One nation that abused magic does not justify punishing those who had nothing to do with it.That's something some pro-templars refuse to accept.Not all mages want to be like Tevinter just like how not all germans were N*zis or how not all muslims were terrorists.

[ultimatekotorfan]

cjones91 wrote...

ultimatekotorfan wrote...

Inprea wrote...

 The chantry has even gone as far as to make wearing a tevinter chantry amulet an executable offense. 

What rights are you talking about whenever you mention the castless? I don't see anywhere that dwarfs had the right to worship as they please. What rights are you talking about whenever you mention dwarf converts to the chantry? It is the Chantry's fault for not respecting and understanding the culture they're trying to inject their beliefs into or do you believe a religion has the right to force its views on another culture?

Oh, the hypocrisy.

So when the Chantry makes wearing a Tevinter Chantry Amulet an executable offense it is religious persecution, but when the dwarves make preaching Andrastianism an executable offense, the blame lies on the Chantry for not "respecting and understanding the culture"?

Let me guess...you think it's alright for another religion to force it's views on others?

No. I'm arguing against blatant favoritism. The Chantry making wearing Tevinter Amulets an executable offense is wrong, but so is executing Brother Burkel for street-preaching. Inprea was holding the former against the Chantry (as she should) but excusing the dwarves religious persecution.

[cjones91]

Even if the Chantry's version of what happened to the Dales was true,that did'nt justify stripping the elves of their culture and making them live in squalor where they are killed and raped without punishment.

[ultimatekotorfan]

cjones91 wrote...

Even if the Chantry's version of what happened to the Dales was true,that did'nt justify stripping the elves of their culture and making them live in squalor where they are killed and raped without punishment.

No one stripped the elves of their culture, they just haven't recovered it. City elves don't want for it, and the Dalish are nomadic and I imagine can't commit to scavenging whatever is left of Arlathan.

Secondly, the state of the city elves is due to racism and feudalism, not the Chantry. Most humans, from a feudal lord down to a simple commoner, look down on the elves due to their race. The guard won't investigate the murder and rape of elves because it's seen as more of a bother than a crime. And feudalism demands that most elves won't be able to rise above their station and thus become more accepted as a race.

Yes, the elves suffer indignities at the hand of humans, but none of them due to the Chantry.

[Daerog]

How do these Exalted Marches work anyway? I don't see the Divine being trained in military strategy, so it's doubtful she is actually leading it, more giving permission and encouragement for the start of it. Perhaps the head of the seekers runs it, but all the people under him or her can't be very large. Oh, of course, they get armies supplied by the other nations, but who has the reigns of the operation?

If Orlais, who was probably providing the bulk of the forces, commanded its generals who were supplied to the chantry to sack and destroy elf villages and slaughter civilians but the Seekers telling everyone to avoid civilians, what would be the outcome? How much control does the Chantry have on Exalted Marches?

We know Divine Renata I established the alienages, but why? To control the elves or to protect the elves? The elves may have their views on the matter, but did the Chantry really mean ill when setting them up or did they see it as the most hopeful situation for the elves to retain some form of culture without being the enemies of the states of Thedas? Alienages don't have to be slums, but the nations of Thedas tend to not care or a too busy with other matters to take much notice to it, even some Mothers may not care as they could be human and it would be difficult for one person who runs an international organization to tackle every problem at hand alone, so no surprise that the Divine hasn't spoken up more on the matter while dealing with Templars and the Circle and all the politicians of the different nations.

Edit: The removing of Shartan from the Chant was an interesting choice as well, probably leads to the idea of punishment, but perhaps the shartan removal was meant to be the punishment (if it was one) and the alienages was a separate decision and not related to any punishment. Orlais certainly wouldn't favor a re establishment of the Dales.

The Chantry has many faults, but I think all the blame and attacks on it are not all just if people try to take a step back and just examine what are the facts and how the world views these facts compared to how we view them. Thedas doesn't have rock music yet, it is in barbaric times still.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 02 septembre 2013 - 12:05 .

[Eveangaline]

I doubt it will die out that fast. It will take generations.

[Archereon]

My own personal stance is that while it's all fine and good to say "mages should be free", observational evidence-aka the veil tears-would suggest mages doing whatever they want represents an existential threat to the entire world Which is a bad thing. So bad in fact that it justifies any and all means to prevent it, up to and including the complete and total genocide of magic users the mmoment their powers manifest.

Of course, the Circle System was shown to be, at the very least, functional enough to prevent something like this from happening before now even back when the Imperium was running things, and simply killing all mages, while the pragmatic choice, is a cruel and brutal way to solve the problem of magic, so reinstituting the Circle System under the supervision of a secular organization (rather than the Chantry) with some changes to prevent such an occurance from happening every again would be the best choice IMHO.


Of course, the Mage-Templar conflict in Dragoon Age has long since reached the point of GrimDark where I can no longer give a damn about either side, so I think in the actual game I'll be off purging heretics and burning witches left and right like the fanatically self righteous lunatic any Inquisitor worthy of the title should be! 

Modifié par Archereon, 02 septembre 2013 - 05:08 .

[Chari]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

How do these Exalted Marches work anyway? I don't see the Divine being trained in military strategy, so it's doubtful she is actually leading it, more giving permission and encouragement for the start of it. Perhaps the head of the seekers runs it, but all the people under him or her can't be very large. Oh, of course, they get armies supplied by the other nations, but who has the reigns of the operation?

If Orlais, who was probably providing the bulk of the forces, commanded its generals who were supplied to the chantry to sack and destroy elf villages and slaughter civilians but the Seekers telling everyone to avoid civilians, what would be the outcome? How much control does the Chantry have on Exalted Marches?

We know Divine Renata I established the alienages, but why? To control the elves or to protect the elves? The elves may have their views on the matter, but did the Chantry really mean ill when setting them up or did they see it as the most hopeful situation for the elves to retain some form of culture without being the enemies of the states of Thedas? Alienages don't have to be slums, but the nations of Thedas tend to not care or a too busy with other matters to take much notice to it, even some Mothers may not care as they could be human and it would be difficult for one person who runs an international organization to tackle every problem at hand alone, so no surprise that the Divine hasn't spoken up more on the matter while dealing with Templars and the Circle and all the politicians of the different nations.

Edit: The removing of Shartan from the Chant was an interesting choice as well, probably leads to the idea of punishment, but perhaps the shartan removal was meant to be the punishment (if it was one) and the alienages was a separate decision and not related to any punishment. Orlais certainly wouldn't favor a re establishment of the Dales.

The Chantry has many faults, but I think all the blame and attacks on it are not all just if people try to take a step back and just examine what are the facts and how the world views these facts compared to how we view them. Thedas doesn't have rock music yet, it is in barbaric times still.

This

[Dean_the_Young]

cjones91 wrote...

Even if the Chantry's version of what happened to the Dales was true,that did'nt justify stripping the elves of their culture and making them live in squalor where they are killed and raped without punishment.

The Chantry isn't making the city elves live in squalor where they are killed and raped without punishment. Secular authorities are making the city elves live in squalor and refuse to punish those who kill and rape them.

[Dean_the_Young]

Lord Raijin wrote...


Theirs no reason to imprison the Mages once they've passed the Harrowing ritual, and deemed to be safe for society living.

The society that mages are deemed safe enough for after the Harrowing ritual is the Circles. Not plebian society.

[Vilegrim]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

I hope so the chantry are nothing but an annoyance and need to be destroyed and anyone associated with them gutted and hung in the streets.

seconded.  Tho I would go for crucifixion, for the congregation, and being caged at a crossroads to starve slowly to death for the priesthood.

[dragonflight288]

ultimatekotorfan wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Even if the Chantry's version of what happened to the Dales was true,that did'nt justify stripping the elves of their culture and making them live in squalor where they are killed and raped without punishment.

No one stripped the elves of their culture, they just haven't recovered it. City elves don't want for it, and the Dalish are nomadic and I imagine can't commit to scavenging whatever is left of Arlathan.

Secondly, the state of the city elves is due to racism and feudalism, not the Chantry. Most humans, from a feudal lord down to a simple commoner, look down on the elves due to their race. The guard won't investigate the murder and rape of elves because it's seen as more of a bother than a crime. And feudalism demands that most elves won't be able to rise above their station and thus become more accepted as a race.

Yes, the elves suffer indignities at the hand of humans, but none of them due to the Chantry.

It was the Chantry that declared elves will live in alienages, and pretty much said convert or die, when the Dales were conquered.

[Huntress]

LupoCarlos wrote...

The templars also have rebelled.
A picture in the DA page says "the Old Gods will call to you".
The Chantry isn't capabable anymore of protecting people against deamons and others (Iquisition trailer).
The Qun having a bigger role in people's lives.

Would this mean the end of the Chantry as we know it?

I hope so, the bastrd lost their change by making mages slaves and the templar's...play things, now is time for new religions!

Goddess Hawke: She rules over war, death, and destruction as well as healing.

Sounds good to me.

Modifié par Huntress, 02 septembre 2013 - 06:38 .

[Dean_the_Young]

dragonflight288 wrote...

ultimatekotorfan wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Even if the Chantry's version of what happened to the Dales was true,that did'nt justify stripping the elves of their culture and making them live in squalor where they are killed and raped without punishment.

No one stripped the elves of their culture, they just haven't recovered it. City elves don't want for it, and the Dalish are nomadic and I imagine can't commit to scavenging whatever is left of Arlathan.

Secondly, the state of the city elves is due to racism and feudalism, not the Chantry. Most humans, from a feudal lord down to a simple commoner, look down on the elves due to their race. The guard won't investigate the murder and rape of elves because it's seen as more of a bother than a crime. And feudalism demands that most elves won't be able to rise above their station and thus become more accepted as a race.

Yes, the elves suffer indignities at the hand of humans, but none of them due to the Chantry.

It was the Chantry that declared elves will live in alienages, and pretty much said convert or die, when the Dales were conquered.

Apart from the 'or die' bit.

And, of course, the Chantry matters a bit less now adays than the secular authorities who keep the elves in their place, both physically and socially. Unless one intends to argue the Chantry selectively controls that part of society in Thedas.

[dragonflight288]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

ultimatekotorfan wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Even if the Chantry's version of what happened to the Dales was true,that did'nt justify stripping the elves of their culture and making them live in squalor where they are killed and raped without punishment.

No one stripped the elves of their culture, they just haven't recovered it. City elves don't want for it, and the Dalish are nomadic and I imagine can't commit to scavenging whatever is left of Arlathan.

Secondly, the state of the city elves is due to racism and feudalism, not the Chantry. Most humans, from a feudal lord down to a simple commoner, look down on the elves due to their race. The guard won't investigate the murder and rape of elves because it's seen as more of a bother than a crime. And feudalism demands that most elves won't be able to rise above their station and thus become more accepted as a race.

Yes, the elves suffer indignities at the hand of humans, but none of them due to the Chantry.

It was the Chantry that declared elves will live in alienages, and pretty much said convert or die, when the Dales were conquered.

Apart from the 'or die' bit.

And, of course, the Chantry matters a bit less now adays than the secular authorities who keep the elves in their place, both physically and socially. Unless one intends to argue the Chantry selectively controls that part of society in Thedas.

They did get the process started, then took or the Canticle of Shartan from the Chant of Light, a canticle that painted elves in a positive light.

I'm not saying they control people's prejudices, but they have helped contribute to it.

[Daerog]

dragonflight288 wrote...

They did get the process started, then took or the Canticle of Shartan from the Chant of Light, a canticle that painted elves in a positive light.

I'm not saying they control people's prejudices, but they have helped contribute to it.

Well, the Chantry isn't completely separate from Thedas society anyway. The humans who grow up with prejudices against elves may end up being sisters, mothers, or even the Divine herself. While the Chantry is set up to encourage good will among all andrastians, doesn't mean every individual member personally adheres to that, or even if they did, people will choose on their own to adhere to the unity that Andraste preaches or keep with the family/historical tradition that humans are better.

This could be said for all organizations in Thedas, even the Grey Wardens.

Also, while the Canticle was taken out, was it only because of the Dalish invading Orlais? Or was that just the last straw and the debate was happening among the Grand Clerics even before the Exalted March? We don't have a lot of info over the controversy other than the result. Still, a bad call in my opinion, if there was not theological reason on the Chantry's side to take it out and it was the Chantry that put it together in the first place, it certainly puts to question the legitimacy for the rest of it. I'm shocked a sect didn't keep with the Canticle of Shartan, and if there was one we never hear about these heretics.

Anyway, elves are not painted in a negative light anywhere in the Chant of Light, they just had more positive moments when talking about their help with the war.

[Dean_the_Young]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

ultimatekotorfan wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Even if the Chantry's version of what happened to the Dales was true,that did'nt justify stripping the elves of their culture and making them live in squalor where they are killed and raped without punishment.

No one stripped the elves of their culture, they just haven't recovered it. City elves don't want for it, and the Dalish are nomadic and I imagine can't commit to scavenging whatever is left of Arlathan.

Secondly, the state of the city elves is due to racism and feudalism, not the Chantry. Most humans, from a feudal lord down to a simple commoner, look down on the elves due to their race. The guard won't investigate the murder and rape of elves because it's seen as more of a bother than a crime. And feudalism demands that most elves won't be able to rise above their station and thus become more accepted as a race.

Yes, the elves suffer indignities at the hand of humans, but none of them due to the Chantry.

It was the Chantry that declared elves will live in alienages, and pretty much said convert or die, when the Dales were conquered.

Apart from the 'or die' bit.

And, of course, the Chantry matters a bit less now adays than the secular authorities who keep the elves in their place, both physically and socially. Unless one intends to argue the Chantry selectively controls that part of society in Thedas.

They did get the process started, then took or the Canticle of Shartan from the Chant of Light, a canticle that painted elves in a positive light.

'Started'? Had to break it to you, but elven-human strife far predates the existence of the Chantry. Something about a blood-sacrificing empire that begins with a 'T'.

I'm not saying they control people's prejudices, but they have helped contribute to it.

And currently so are you, by spreading exagerated bias and outright fabrications. Which one is more contemporary, I wonder?

You may not be saying they control people's prejudices... but you're certainly making a number of attempts to not so subtly imply it, like resting part of your argument on the Canticle of Shartan as a cause and not a reflection of the relations at the time.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

My Inquisition will ensure that the Chantry is finished..together with the Qun and any other nonsensical dogma if possible....

[Daerog]

The Sin wrote...

My Inquisition will ensure that the Chantry is finished..together with the Qun and any other nonsensical dogma if possible....

My Inquisition will do the opposite. Support the Chantry in Thedas and the Imperial Chantry when visiting Tevinter, and stressing respect on my subordinates when dealing with those of the Qun. Giving safe harbor to Dalish who are probably having trouble with so many more monsters roaming about, and giving fallen dwarf allies back to the Stone.

Oh yeah, being Mr. Nice Guy to all those who believe in different things.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

The Sin wrote...

My Inquisition will ensure that the Chantry is finished..together with the Qun and any other nonsensical dogma if possible....

My Inquisition will do the opposite. Support the Chantry in Thedas and the Imperial Chantry when visiting Tevinter, and stressing respect on my subordinates when dealing with those of the Qun. Giving safe harbor to Dalish who are probably having trouble with so many more monsters roaming about, and giving fallen dwarf allies back to the Stone.

Oh yeah, being Mr. Nice Guy to all those who believe in different things.

No no...what I meant was any form of oppressive dogma that seeks to impose itself on people who wish to be free and mind their own business such as the Chantry & the Qun...my Inquisition will severely weaken those..

The Dalish & the Dwarves just wish to mind their own business and frolick around So they have my full support...

[Ausstig]

The Sin wrote...

My Inquisition will ensure that the Chantry is finished..together with the Qun and any other nonsensical dogma if possible....

And what would you replace it with?

[cjones91]

Ausstig wrote...

The Sin wrote...

My Inquisition will ensure that the Chantry is finished..together with the Qun and any other nonsensical dogma if possible....

And what would you replace it with?

Nothing.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

cjones91 wrote...

Ausstig wrote...

The Sin wrote...

My Inquisition will ensure that the Chantry is finished..together with the Qun and any other nonsensical dogma if possible....

And what would you replace it with?

Nothing.

Precisely. Nothing. Life with no nonsensical oppressive dogma or slavery can be devoted to education, arts, magic, studies and governing....I hope we can achieve that...

Modifié par The Sin, 04 septembre 2013 - 05:52 .