250 réponses à ce sujet

[ScarMK]

cjones91 wrote...

ScarMK wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Anders: Nice day to be planning a trip into the Deep Roads, don't you think?
Anders: The Blight, the dampness, the festering darkness filled with tainted rats...
Carver: Shut up.
Anders: You've got a real chip on your shoulder, you know?
Carver: I've got a big blade on my shoulder, magey.
Anders: Right. Wonder what you're compensating for.

Oh, how naive you are.

I suspect most people who hate mages are just jealous of the power they wield,it's the same with having a friend who is wealthy and you want what he/she has.

Unless I just have a dirty mind, that's not what Anders is implying.

[MisterJB]

cjones91 wrote...
The circles were originally intended to be places of learning where mages can practice their magic without fear,instead they became golden prisons where they are watched by people who are trained to hate them.

They were places where mages could be isolated from normal people and thus they have remainced.

The Chantry has destroyed not just just the Dales,but tribes are often hunted down simply because they worship another deity.

Source? Quote? Anything? When has that happened?

Not to mention Andraste wanted all religions to be erased so that people would worship the Maker which fits the Chantry's mandate of spreading the Chant to all corners of the world,the problem is they can't do that if people practice other religions so the Chantry wipes them out.

Where are your sources? What religions has the Chantry wiped out? When have they ever done anything beyond sending missionaries unless if deliberately provoked?

Modifié par MisterJB, 31 août 2013 - 04:58 .

[Lord Raijin]

cjones91 wrote...

Let's be honest here....the Chantry is the Roman Catholic Empire of Dragon Age and with that comes all sorts of corruption.Mages are torn from their families,are constantly told how they are monsters and they are a plague to everyone around them.The Chantry attacks anyone who does'nt worship their god and have destroyed countless cultures because of it,anyone who isn't Andrastian is a heretic and are hunted down by the Chantry.

I would'nt shed a tear if they are destroyed and I'm sure their victims would agree.

I agree 100%

The Chantry also executes people who helps apostate.

In general speaking.....

To get a deep psychological depth about the truth against the Chantry I would highly recommend reading this article. Chantry - Circles as narcissistic family + Anders

The Circle should be a safe haven for mages... a school to help young mages to control their power, and to resist demonic possession. They should be trained to use their magical abilities to serve man as Andrastate and the Maker would want them to do. The Circle should be in no way used as a prison, and unfortunetly, with no thank to the Chantry, it is.

The Chantry is too powerful for their own good... and they do need to tone the line.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 31 août 2013 - 05:00 .

[cjones91]

@MisterJB Since I was suspended for quote pyramids I will respond using single posts.The Chantry's mandate basically means all other religions need to be abolished so that people will worship the Maker once again,this usually results in killing the fanatics and slowly erasing that particular religion.

Many tribes like the Chasind or Avaar are outcasts and that is because they don't worship the Chantry's version of Andrastism.Even loyal members of the Chantry like Leliana are outcasts because her views are different from the Chantry's dogma.

Modifié par cjones91, 31 août 2013 - 05:06 .

[Star fury]

Royal Archer wrote...
This. If we can make decisons to weaken the Chantry, I hope we can also make decisions to strengthen the Chantry. Both my Warden and my Champion were strong Andrastians and I'd like my Inquisitor to follow the theme.

Supporting/fighting the Chantry definitely should be an option, religion played a big role in Medieval. I think Grand Cleric and the Chantry should've played a bigger role in DA2. Don't if biower have desire and resources to implement it in the game.

[MisterJB]

cjones91 wrote...

@MisterJB Since I was suspended for quote pyramids I will respond using single posts.The Chantry's mandate basically means all other religions need to be abolished so that people will worship the Maker once again,this usually results in killing the fanatics and slowly erasing that particular religion.

Many tribes like the Chasind or Avaar are outcasts and that is because they don't worship the Chantry's version of Andrastism.Even loyal members of the Chantry like Leliana are outcasts because her views are different from the Chantry's dogma.

No, it really doesn't. There is not a single instance in the whole lore of the Chantry ever killing Chansinds or expelling them from cities. On the other hand, we've seen four instance of missionaries being sent to different cultures; helping people from these cultures (See Brother Burkel) and converting people in this manner.

Where is it stated in the codex or by someone that the Chasind are outcasts because of the Chantry rather than simply them isolating themselves from the society of other humans because they wish to preserve their cultures; which would be swallowed by the more powerful kingdoms; or simply because they might be xenophobic?

There is, certainly, a certain ammount of arrogance in claiming that your found the one true god and everyone's else are fiction but you seeing what you expect the Chantry to be rather than what it is.
We, as a society, have been condicioned to hear the words "organized religion" and think of torche wielding mobs burning non-believers; and while this might be accurate in some cases; this a very rare ocurrence in Thedas.

Modifié par MisterJB, 31 août 2013 - 05:21 .

[Inprea]

@MisterJB Whenever it comes to when the chantry tried to prevent the dalish from worshiping as they wanted it can be found here http://dragonage.wik...ntry:_The_Dales which is noted from the codex. The dalish had their own sovereign nation and the chantry sent missionaries. The dalish made it clear that they didn't want human interference they had their own gods and the chantry sent templars. If the dalish history is believed. Even if you don't believe the dalish account how civilized do you believe the chantry's discourse was especially to a people that simply wanted to be left alone?

Then there is of course the events in Rivan http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Rivain in which it's noted that those who would not convert from the qun to the worship of the maker again were murdered in mass.

As well as the marches declared on Tevinter http://dragonage.wik...ima_Timeline-14 The chantry couldn't be content with the way the imperium chose to see their religion so they tried numerous times to force their views upon them. Fortunately unlike with the dalish and the events in Rivan those marches were failures.

As for the dwarfs. As I recall whenever his attempt to convert the dwarfs fails and said missionary is killed the chantry does consider declaring a march on the dwarfs. The chantry may start off peacefully sending in their missionaries but they seem to have little respect for the society they're trying to invade and in the event the missionaries fail little issue with resorting to force. Fortunately for the dwarfs they're a very hard target.

It doesn't help the image of the chantry whenever Anders's response to given him an amulet from Tavinter is, "Do you want me to be executed? "

Modifié par Inprea, 31 août 2013 - 06:28 .

[DarthSliver]

But the Chantry restrictions on the mages is the sole reason why Templar/Mage war exist in the first place. They kept tightening their grip on the mages, and Circles shouldve never became a prison but yet it did. But there are alot of things that lead to the Chantry being at fault that it led to this conflict we have in DAI.

The Chantry has been pitting the Templars against the Mages for years now before we see the Wolrd of Thedas in DAO. Why do you think there are Templars who abuse the mages, the Templars even rape the female mages at times because some at the point we see in the game dont think of Mages as people. But in no way does that make what Anders did right but its stuff like that, that leads to this Templar/ Mage war. The Chantry didnt help by breeding Templars to be that way towards Mages. My basic point is its is the Chantry's fault and they are to be rightfully blamed for the war. What Anders did was wrong and my Hawke executes him for it but the damage had already been done and Anders only did it because of Templar abuse to mages.

[MisterJB]

Inprea wrote...

@MisterJB Whenever it comes to when the chantry tried to prevent the dalish from worshiping as they wanted it can be found here http://dragonage.wik...ntry:_The_Dales which is noted from the codex. The dalish had their own sovereign nation and the chantry sent missionaries. The dalish made it clear that they didn't want human interference they had their own gods and the chantry sent templars. If the dalish history is believed. Even if you don't believe the dalish account how civilized do you believe the chantry's discourse was especially to a people that simply wanted to be left alone?

Sending missionaries is not an act of violence. Neither is sending traders or diplomats which that very codex says they also refused.
I don't know in what manner humans acted but I daresay that given their attempt to extablish trade and talk with the elves, they were more civilized than the culture that claims humans are blight carrying rats and contact with them strips you of immortality.
Regardless, the Dalish culture was only destroyed after the elves burned half of Orlais and even sacked Val-Royeaux. The Chantry and Orlais fought in self defense.

Then there is of course the events in Rivan http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Rivain in which it's noted that those who would not convert from the qun to the worship of the maker again were murdered in mass.

It is worth noting that those massacres were conducted not just by Andrastians but also by Rivaini who followed the "Natural  Order" which is another religion in Rivain AKA the Rivain Nationalists this codex refers to:http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Codex_entry:_The_Llomerryn_Accords

Also, one must remember that the Accords detailed in said codex prohibited Qunari from setting foot in the continent. The rivain qunari broke the accords first. Wholesale slaugther was extreme but these were not common ocurrence. They had just finished fighting a war against the qunari, after all.

We never see the Chantry uprooting Chasind or Avaar or Natural Order settlements. Why? Because their practicioners are not violent.

Then there is of course the marches declared on Tevinter http://dragonage.wik...ima_Timeline-14 The chantry couldn't be content with the way the imperium chose to see their religion so they tried numerous times to force their views upon them. Fortunately unlike with the dalish and the events in Rivan those marches were failures.

Tevinter and the rest of Thedas have an history of war that stretchs back millenia. Against these marches, I can point out instancea where Tevinter invaded pretty much ALL of Thedas before Andraste came; the Bligths; the annexation of Starkhaven in 2:45 Glory, the occupation of Hunter Fell in 3:25 Towers, the attempt to enslave the souls of every non-mage in Tedas in "Until We Sleep".
Tevinter is not some peaceful nation just trying to exist; it's a violent, opressive, expansionist empire that would conquer the world if given half a chance.

As for the dwarfs. As I recall whenever his attempt to convert the dwarfs fails and said missionary is killed the chantry does consider declaring a march on the dwarfs. The chantry may start off peacefully sending in their missionaries but they seem to have little respect for the society they're trying to invade and in the event the missionaries fail little issue with resorting to force. Fortunately for the dwarfs they're a very hard target.

So, a peaceful missionary who was helping the dwarves that were abandoned by their own society; the Casteless; and attractive converts that way is murdered in the streets, the rights of Andrastian dwarves taken from them and it's the Chantry who is at fault here?

Modifié par MisterJB, 31 août 2013 - 06:52 .

[Lord Raijin]

ScarMK wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Anders: Nice day to be planning a trip into the Deep Roads, don't you think?
Anders: The Blight, the dampness, the festering darkness filled with tainted rats...
Carver: Shut up.
Anders: You've got a real chip on your shoulder, you know?
Carver: I've got a big blade on my shoulder, magey.
Anders: Right. Wonder what you're compensating for.

Oh, how naive you are.

How am I naive? You spit words without explaining the reason.

[Lord Raijin]

EntropicAngel wrote...

My very first reply to you was about Anders leading a normal life, about him being "chased down by Templars." He wasn't being chased down by Templars at all. He wasn't being harrassed by them when he decided to merge with a spirit, like you implied. That wasn't true at all. That's what I was responding to.

Mages in Thedas cannot live a normal live, not while the Chantry has the power that they have. They're hunted down by the Chantries mabari hounds, and force them to live in the Circle. Anders is an apostate and apostates is what Templars hunt down. Since Anders lived a ciricle life as a young boy they took blood from him and store it somewhere, so for as long as the Chantry has his phylactery he will contuine to be hunted down by the Templars.

In order for a circle mage to be free they must destory their phylactery.... their leash that the Templars has on them.

In DA2 Anders was allowed to roam free because he was protected by the champion of Kirkwall. This was confirmed by Knight-Commander Meredith http://youtu.be/bsSbEe2wl_M?t=34s had he not been friends with the champion I don't think he would've gotten away with debating Meredith so openly, or even been allowed to leave her office, not without a few Templars exorting him to the circle.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 31 août 2013 - 07:47 .

[Inprea]

@MisterJB The dalish made it clear that they wanted to be left alone. I also disagree with your notion that sending missionaries was not an act of violence. It was an idealogical attack on the dalish and their faith. We're not talking about a setting in which the dalish could call the police and have the missionaries removed. The dalish made it clear to the humans that they didn't want anything to do with them. What were the dalish suppose to do when the humans kept intruding upon their territory?

As for your claims as to when the Dalish culture was destroyed. As you're so fond of asking for it. Proof? If you're going to make a claim at least link to supporting evidence. I was decent enough to provide a source and even mentioned that there are two accounts of the happening. How credible is your source of information? How much of the dalish's attack was provoked by the constant intrusion of missionaries and templars?

Did those slaughtered qunari step foot on Rivan or were they already there? Also do you have any evidence that the slaughtered qunari aggreed to the accords or are you saying because one group of followers agree to something every group agrees to it regardless of how much say they had in the matter? The fact that the chantry had assistance in the murders does nothing to take away from the fact that they violently purged another religious organization. Besides if the question is whether or not the chantry has ever slaughtered another group of religious reasons does it matter if the government said it was legal? The Rivan Qunari in question were noted as being defensless after all.

The expantionist nature of the empire doesn't change the fact that the chantry ordered exalted marches against them in response to their differences in beliefs. The chantry has even gone as far as to make wearing a tevinter chantry amulet an executable offense. As Anders notes his concerns whenever you give him such an amulet. Military action instigated because a religious disagreement and because of hostile actions tend to be a bit different.

The chantry is not a legal body amongst the dwarfs. What rights are you talking about whenever you mention the castless? I don't see anywhere that dwarfs had the right to worship as they please. What rights are you talking about whenever you mention dwarf converts to the chantry? It is the Chantry's fault for not respecting and understanding the culture they're trying to inject their beliefs into or do you believe a religion has the right to force its views on another culture?

It isn't as if the castless are required to stay and neither was the chantry missionary. If they had been bound to to the land with no choice but to stay I would see things differently. As things are he chose to stay and keep pushing his boundaries without concern for the dwarfen system of doing things and got himself killed. When you are a guest within another notion isn't it your responsibility to honor their laws if not their traditions? Of course in dwarf society tradition seems to be law.

Modifié par Inprea, 31 août 2013 - 08:15 .

[In Exile]

Lord Raijin wrote...
In DA2 Anders was allowed to roam free because he was protected by the champion of Kirkwall. This was confirmed by Knight-Commander Meredith http://youtu.be/bsSbEe2wl_M?t=34s had he not been friends with the champion I don't think he would've gotten away with debating Meredith so openly, or even been allowed to leave her office, not without a few Templars exorting him to the circle.

Correction: The dialogue makes it very clear that early on that Varric is protecting Anders. Hawke was only the Champion quite late in the game. 

[DarthLaxian]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

I would like the 'White Chantry' to fall and the 'Black Chantry' to rise and become the dominant religion in Thedas.

I've had my fill of 'White Chantry' controlled countries its so tiring.

agreed - even more as that chantry (while extreme in some of their views - which is something i don't like at all!) allows both genders to gain rank (as far as i know), while the "white" one has gender-bias against men! (i would like to know how that came to be and why no one protests it - in a society that allows women to do everything else, from joining the army (and being on the front lines, too - many of today's armies don't even do that!) to ruling a country (Empress Celene comes to mind!)...i mean to say: wouldn't that inspire men to call the chantry out on that injustice? (i mean, i would not follow a religion that does exclude an entire gender from positions of power (that's why i have a problem with the roman catholic church in RL...well amongst other things they are doing)....

greetings LAX
ps: note - i don't think the chantry will fall though, they might be reduced to what the church is today, but it will not kill the chantry IMHO

[Lord Raijin]

DarthSliver wrote...

But the Chantry restrictions on the mages is the sole reason why Templar/Mage war exist in the first place. They kept tightening their grip on the mages, and Circles shouldve never became a prison but yet it did. But there are alot of things that lead to the Chantry being at fault that it led to this conflict we have in DAI.

The Chantry has been pitting the Templars against the Mages for years now before we see the Wolrd of Thedas in DAO. Why do you think there are Templars who abuse the mages, the Templars even rape the female mages at times because some at the point we see in the game dont think of Mages as people. But in no way does that make what Anders did right but its stuff like that, that leads to this Templar/ Mage war. The Chantry didnt help by breeding Templars to be that way towards Mages. My basic point is its is the Chantry's fault and they are to be rightfully blamed for the war. What Anders did was wrong and my Hawke executes him for it but the damage had already been done and Anders only did it because of Templar abuse to mages.

I use to think what Anders did to the Chantry was not right, but if you stop and think about it. On the day Elthina promoted Meredith as the new Knight-Commander was the day that she jump started this Mage vs Templar war. Meredith has a deep hatred for Mages, and she doesn't keep it private either. She should've never been allowed to carry on the title of Knight-Commander in the logical sense.

Shouldn't the Grand Cleric be punished for the crimes she commited? To be punished by not doing anything about the crap that Meredith was stirring up? She allowed this war mongering woman to go on for so many years until she finally went 100% insane. Templars have no right to get involved in the politcal affair yet Meredith was wanting to become the new Viscount of Kirkwall... which goes against the Templar Order. Elthina could've done something about it, but she didn't. She was an enabler to the cause, and therefour what Anders did was jusitified.

Everything that Meredith did Elthina should take the responsiblity for.

[duckley]

Yes.... definately time for a Reformation. New and improved religion.

[dragonflight288]

If the Chantry comes to an end, at least as an international organization, or in its politics regarding Orlais, I'll be happy. I'm not entirely convinced the Chantry even interprets the Chant of Light the way it was meant to be interpreted since they were only one of many Andrastian Cults chosen to help Drakon forge the Orlesian empire...nearly a century after her death.

[ultimatekotorfan]

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

ultimatekotorfan wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

101ezylonhxeT wrote...



You act as if there aren't apostates who train in CQC specifically to deal with templars when their magic is nullified because at the end of the day templars are men/women in armor nothing more and being stabbed will kill them.

Mages are wonderfully squishy.

That's the same thing the imperial empire thought about the thalmor in TES...that thought process didn't work out so well for them.

You cannot use an entirely different universe in order to argue facts about this one. That violates inter-reality bylaw 478.

The fact remains that if a mage in armor with CQC training with sword and shield or dual wielding plus the use of magic can still kill a templar like any ordinary person can. Just because they can nullify magic doesn't make them better at fighting someone else with equal CQC skills and the only reason mages are squishy in DA is because Bioware is using the mage/warrior/rogue archetype which IMO is limiting.

You are gradually making me pro-templar. 

If your so easily capable of switching sides then you were never pro-mage to begin with.

Never said I was. Both sides have their positive and negative aspects and I try not to align myself with one side of the other. We can't all be insane fanatics such as yourself.<_<

[ultimatekotorfan]

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Mages are torn from their families,are constantly told how they are monsters and they are a plague to everyone around them.

Corruption doesn't equal "Things I don't like."
In order for something to be corrupted, it has to have deviated from the original goal. The Circles functions as they are supposed to.

The Chantry attacks anyone who does'nt worship their god and have destroyed countless cultures because of it,

Hyperbole much?
The only culture the Chantry ever destroyed was that of the Dales and there is plenty of evidence that suggests the elves attacked first and also commited attrocities such as the sacking of Val-Royeaux.

anyone who isn't Andrastian is a heretic and are hunted down by the Chantry.

World of Thedas page 45 "The old ways are disappearing, but the Chantry does not demand their removal or promote hatred against the old deities. The Maker simply stands above them."

The circles were originally intended to be places of learning where mages can practice their magic without fear,instead they became golden prisons where they are watched by people who are trained to hate them.The Chantry has destroyed not just just the Dales,but tribes are often hunted down simply because they worship another deity.

Not to mention Andraste wanted all religions to be erased so that people would worship the Maker which fits the Chantry's mandate of spreading the Chant to all corners of the world,the problem is they can't do that if people practice other religions so the Chantry wipes them out.

Except for the part where everything you said is demonstrably false.

[Androme]

I find it scary that people see the Chantry as a bigger threat to freedom than the Qun. Because that tells me enough about their opinions on a certain religion irl.

[Graphskawn]

I hope not. I actually wish that the Inquisitor can strengthen the Chantry.

[ultimatekotorfan]

Inprea wrote...

 The chantry has even gone as far as to make wearing a tevinter chantry amulet an executable offense. 

What rights are you talking about whenever you mention the castless? I don't see anywhere that dwarfs had the right to worship as they please. What rights are you talking about whenever you mention dwarf converts to the chantry? It is the Chantry's fault for not respecting and understanding the culture they're trying to inject their beliefs into or do you believe a religion has the right to force its views on another culture?

Oh, the hypocrisy.

So when the Chantry makes wearing a Tevinter Chantry Amulet an executable offense it is religious persecution, but when the dwarves make preaching Andrastianism an executable offense, the blame lies on the Chantry for not "respecting and understanding the culture"?

[cjones91]

ultimatekotorfan wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
Mages are torn from their families,are constantly told how they are monsters and they are a plague to everyone around them.

Corruption doesn't equal "Things I don't like."
In order for something to be corrupted, it has to have deviated from the original goal. The Circles functions as they are supposed to.

The Chantry attacks anyone who does'nt worship their god and have destroyed countless cultures because of it,

Hyperbole much?
The only culture the Chantry ever destroyed was that of the Dales and there is plenty of evidence that suggests the elves attacked first and also commited attrocities such as the sacking of Val-Royeaux.

anyone who isn't Andrastian is a heretic and are hunted down by the Chantry.

World of Thedas page 45 "The old ways are disappearing, but the Chantry does not demand their removal or promote hatred against the old deities. The Maker simply stands above them."

The circles were originally intended to be places of learning where mages can practice their magic without fear,instead they became golden prisons where they are watched by people who are trained to hate them.The Chantry has destroyed not just just the Dales,but tribes are often hunted down simply because they worship another deity.

Not to mention Andraste wanted all religions to be erased so that people would worship the Maker which fits the Chantry's mandate of spreading the Chant to all corners of the world,the problem is they can't do that if people practice other religions so the Chantry wipes them out.

Except for the part where everything you said is demonstrably false.

Can you explain why it's false?

[cjones91]

ultimatekotorfan wrote...

Inprea wrote...

 The chantry has even gone as far as to make wearing a tevinter chantry amulet an executable offense. 

What rights are you talking about whenever you mention the castless? I don't see anywhere that dwarfs had the right to worship as they please. What rights are you talking about whenever you mention dwarf converts to the chantry? It is the Chantry's fault for not respecting and understanding the culture they're trying to inject their beliefs into or do you believe a religion has the right to force its views on another culture?

Oh, the hypocrisy.

So when the Chantry makes wearing a Tevinter Chantry Amulet an executable offense it is religious persecution, but when the dwarves make preaching Andrastianism an executable offense, the blame lies on the Chantry for not "respecting and understanding the culture"?

Let me guess...you think it's alright for another religion to force it's views on others?