338 réponses à ce sujet

[Morroian]

As long as the 'good' decisions are extremely difficult to pull off its should be OK IMHO. The issue in DAO was that the perfect decisions were easy to pull off.

[Zu Long]

As it happens OP, I disagree with you intensely. I am always in favor of there being a best of all worlds option. I may not always find it- Tali died the first time I played through ME2-  But I was able to figure out my mistakes and it felt rewarding when I achieved No One Left behind. So what if some people cheat themselves out of an experience? I infinitely prefer the ability, ala Dragon Age Awakenings, to make choices early on that give me the ability to save everyone in the end.

The alternative is that you lose no matter what you do, ala ME3. If one compares the reactions of fans between Mass Effect 2's ending, which left the option of total victory, and ME3, which did not, you come away with a clear favorite in ME2. People like to win. It's why many of us play games in the first place.

[crimzontearz]

I am 100% OK with being able to save everyone.....if it makes me childish so be it

[Jorji Costava]

My view on this is "let a thousand flowers bloom." Sometimes, it makes sense to have choices in which no one outcome is definitively better than the others. To take the OP's ME2 example, I think it would have been a good idea if there had been benefits to losing squadmates during the suicide mission. Send X through the vents, and X dies, but refuse to do so, and things become more difficult later on. Now you have a choice between expediency and loyalty to your buddies: Your choice reflects your PC's values, and by balancing the costs and benefits of each choice, the game refuses to pass judgment on those values.

On the other hand, I don't see why certain choices (say during a dialogue sequence) shouldn't result in outright worse outcomes than others, provided that the game provides the player the resources to make a reasonably informed choice. If you think of dialogue, choices, etc. as every bit as legitimate a part of gameplay as combat, then I see no reason why it shouldn't be possible to 'lose' conversations in the same way it's possible to lose battles. This isn't a novel suggestion on my part; we've seen stuff like this implemented before in games like Planescape: Torment.

[Tarek]

actually ME2 was awesome and losing all those colonists was like poring salted vinegar into my eyeballs

I care about people dammit

Modifié par Tarek, 31 août 2013 - 11:05 .

[cjones91]

crimzontearz wrote...

I am 100% OK with being able to save everyone.....if it makes me childish so be it

Agreed,but I love how they are making it harder to do so which will make the choice even more satisfying.

[AmRMa]

Why does it bother you how other people play? If you don't want the super happy ending don't play that way, but if someone does and uses the guide- how does that personally effect you again?

[AmstradHero]

Like most other people... sorry OP, but I think you're wrong.

As others have said, that is an individual choice to consult a guide. If you choose to do so in order to get the "best" ending and then feeling as though you've missed out as a result, you've no one to blame but yourself. 

Secondly, making the "best" ending difficult to achieve is an excellent design decision, imho. Just having an easy "just pick all the 'good' answers and you WIN, is a poor solution.  That's where I honestly thought you were going to be going with this topic - the fact that by and large in BioWare games, typically you get the most benefit out of being "good" rather than being "evil", because even though you'll end up giving up some rewards, you typically end up getting compensated in other ways that end up being better than the immediate reward you would have gotten. Also, see BioShock.

Also, I happen to put up with my choices... and I got through the ME2 suicide mission without consulting a guide and without losing anyone.

[OdanUrr]

Ultimashade wrote...

"Nobody should live because guides exist" is what I'm drawing from this. I don't care about the guides, so if the player spoils themselves then that's their problem. Why does it bother you?

Pretty much this. Yes, if someone's patient enough, he or she can find out what variables to affect in order to save everyone. Why is this a problem? If they're happy doing this, then let them be.

[Cimeas]

I think it's clear that SOME people refuse to use guides, but let's be honest, judging by the usual forum posts (both here and on IGN/gamefaqs/Neogaf/whatever) in the weeks after launch, many (I'm going to say most here because it's most of the fans I've encountered) do care about these characters enough to do a quick google search to make sure they don't die.

The problem is not, once again, "happy endings". I like happy endings. If you go through my posting history you can continuously see my disappointment at the lack of a happy ending in ME3.

*BUT*, the problem is that if you provide an option that is objectively 'optimal' compared to the other choices, then you are essentially "choosing to fail" by knowingly picking those options. And that means that if you're playing a relatively good character there are blatantly 'bad' choices. And that negates the whole choice based aspect of the game because you obviously don't want your buddies to die/be sad, and so you'll always pick the same choice.

TL;DR Best outcome/Worst outcome choices aren't interesting moral choices, because you are either playing an idiot (or someone unlucky) or you pick the good outcome.

How is the choice to succeed or fail a 'difficult moral choice'.  It's the most ridiculously easy choice ever.

Modifié par Cimeas, 31 août 2013 - 11:16 .

[mikeymoonshine]

I really don't like losing companions not unless it was my choice to lose them. It really doesn't entertain me in any way. I don't mind other characters dying like hawks mother if it's done well and I don't mind my characters choices having bad consequences but if there is a way to save my characters I will do it.

I had to shoot wrex in my first play through of ME1 and if I hadn't gone back and changed that then my main character would have gone through the next two games with wrex dead and that would suck.

If people want to use guides to get certain outcomes then let em. It really doesn't ruin the game for me if I do that sometimes with some of my characters.

[OdanUrr]

Cimeas wrote...

I think it's clear that SOME people refuse to use guides, but let's be honest, judging by the usual forum posts (both here and on IGN/gamefaqs/Neogaf/whatever) in the weeks after launch, many (I'm going to say most here because it's most of the fans I've encountered) do care about these characters enough to do a quick google search to make sure they don't die.

The problem is not, once again, "happy endings". I like happy endings. If you go through my posting history you can continuously see my disappointment at the lack of a happy ending in ME3.

*BUT*, the problem is that if you provide an option that is objectively 'optimal' compared to the other choices, then you are essentially "choosing to fail" by knowingly picking those options. And that means that if you're playing a relatively good character there are blatantly 'bad' choices. And that negates the whole choice based aspect of the game because you obviously don't want your buddies to die/be sad, and so you'll always pick the same choice.

TL;DR Best outcome/Worst outcome choices aren't interesting moral choices, because you are either playing an idiot (or someone unlucky) or you pick the good outcome.

How is the choice to succeed or fail a 'difficult moral choice'.  It's the most ridiculously easy choice ever.

If you don't read a guide, then how are you supposed to know the outcome of your choices?

[Mikoto8472]

I'm with the majority here. Why the urge to force your way of playing on everyone else?

The more choices there are, the better. My characters are almost inevitably heroes who try to save every single life that they can. Like for example in my Warden's case. She'd given up her family and old life to become a Grey Warden. She had sacrificed her fertility and dramatically shortened her lifespan through the taint so that she could slay the Archdemon and save Ferelden. And so she wanted to save as many lives as possible to help make that sacrifice worthwhile. So she did. She saved Redcliff, she negotiated peace between the Werewolves and the Dalish, she sided with the Mages and crowned Bhelen. Every life saved made her sacrifices more worthwhile.

I like happy endings. That's why I think there should be choices. Good endings for people like me, bittersweet endings for people who like that. And grim, dark endings for those who like that.

That way everyone is happy with the way they played their character and the way their game turned out. At least that's the theory.

[mikeymoonshine]

As for losng characters being a fail , no it isn't always a fail my renegade shep killed wrex and picked Mornith over Samara (which is a totally pointless thing to do other than the fact that it is a renegade choice)

My templar supporting Hawke Killed anders

[jontepwn]

I'll do what I've always done with Bioware games... Choose what I think is the best choice at the time and on consequent playthroughs I'll maybe look up other paths online. However I don't think it's inherently bad to be able to save "everyone". If you put in the right amount of time and effort it should be possible. But hopefully DAI can distance itself from "here are 3 bad choices where almost everyone dies and one good choice where everyone lives" type of situations, and be a little more moraly gray in its dilemmas.

Personally I think "imperfect" playthroughs are more interesting because you have to cope with the fact that you lost a companion or failed in some way. Playing the "hero who does everything right 100% of the time" is a little boring to me, it's much more interesting playing the flawed hero.

Modifié par jontepwn, 31 août 2013 - 11:21 .

[Beerfish]

1, please don't bleat about bioware problems and then use NWN2 as an example of anything.
2. It was VERY easy to lose people in ME2 the 1st time you play through and by no means at just doing things in a logical manner. You had to do specific things to NOT lose people in ME2.

[Cimeas]

OdanUrr wrote...

Cimeas wrote...

I think it's clear that SOME people refuse to use guides, but let's be honest, judging by the usual forum posts (both here and on IGN/gamefaqs/Neogaf/whatever) in the weeks after launch, many (I'm going to say most here because it's most of the fans I've encountered) do care about these characters enough to do a quick google search to make sure they don't die.

The problem is not, once again, "happy endings". I like happy endings. If you go through my posting history you can continuously see my disappointment at the lack of a happy ending in ME3.

*BUT*, the problem is that if you provide an option that is objectively 'optimal' compared to the other choices, then you are essentially "choosing to fail" by knowingly picking those options. And that means that if you're playing a relatively good character there are blatantly 'bad' choices. And that negates the whole choice based aspect of the game because you obviously don't want your buddies to die/be sad, and so you'll always pick the same choice.

TL;DR Best outcome/Worst outcome choices aren't interesting moral choices, because you are either playing an idiot (or someone unlucky) or you pick the good outcome.

How is the choice to succeed or fail a 'difficult moral choice'.  It's the most ridiculously easy choice ever.

If you don't read a guide, then how are you supposed to know the outcome of your choices?

I'd wager the first thing anyone did upon not saving everyone in the suicide mission (if they hadn't looked it up and saved everyone), is checked out if you were able to.   Then reloaded their save and gave it another shot.

All that is is wasting 3 hours of your life.   You will know the outcome of your choices eventually, and most players want to know them in advance (heck, that's why they've added the new dialogue preview wheel [also because paraphrasing was terrible]), which is why I guarantee you on day 2 after launch there will be 50 threads in the Campaign section of the forums saying "Need Help At Keep" and "How Do I save [SPOILER] in Tevinter?" etc..

[Sasie]

MoTB does not have a perfect ending in Bioware style. You you can collect the masks, I found them first time through without a guide by simply following the game's storyline, even if you do though most of your companions have far from happy endings. Kaelyn the Dove comes to mind as the best example.

As for happy endings I think DA:O had it right. The dark ritual more or less made it impossible for a large majority to get their happy ending without tainting their perfect record at least a tiny bit.It also avoided a big fan backlash and mostly do seem to be a good comprimise between interests.

Only thing I would change is the mage tower option with Connor but even then if companions would just stop slapping the 'best' option in my face to make sure I know it's there it's no problem at all to ignore it.

[crimzontearz]

Cimeas wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

Cimeas wrote...

I think it's clear that SOME people refuse to use guides, but let's be honest, judging by the usual forum posts (both here and on IGN/gamefaqs/Neogaf/whatever) in the weeks after launch, many (I'm going to say most here because it's most of the fans I've encountered) do care about these characters enough to do a quick google search to make sure they don't die.

The problem is not, once again, "happy endings". I like happy endings. If you go through my posting history you can continuously see my disappointment at the lack of a happy ending in ME3.

*BUT*, the problem is that if you provide an option that is objectively 'optimal' compared to the other choices, then you are essentially "choosing to fail" by knowingly picking those options. And that means that if you're playing a relatively good character there are blatantly 'bad' choices. And that negates the whole choice based aspect of the game because you obviously don't want your buddies to die/be sad, and so you'll always pick the same choice.

TL;DR Best outcome/Worst outcome choices aren't interesting moral choices, because you are either playing an idiot (or someone unlucky) or you pick the good outcome.

How is the choice to succeed or fail a 'difficult moral choice'.  It's the most ridiculously easy choice ever.

If you don't read a guide, then how are you supposed to know the outcome of your choices?

I'd wager the first thing anyone did upon not saving everyone in the suicide mission (if they hadn't looked it up and saved everyone), is checked out if you were able to.   Then reloaded their save and gave it another shot.

All that is is wasting 3 hours of your life.   You will know the outcome of your choices eventually, and most players want to know them in advance (heck, that's why they've added the new dialogue preview wheel [also because paraphrasing was terrible]), which is why I guarantee you on day 2 after launch there will be 50 threads in the Campaign section of the forums saying "Need Help At Keep" and "How Do I save [SPOILER] in Tevinter?" etc..

and if I can I'll be glad to give them all the answers they need



what is it to you?

[Medhia Nox]

Opening an internet browser and picking the best possible endings is WRITING a story.. not ROLEPLAYING a story.

Both are fine - but don't claim these games fail because you have no self control (there's plenty of other places Bioware games could improve)

[Zu Long]

Cimeas wrote...

How is the choice to succeed or fail a 'difficult moral choice'.  It's the most ridiculously easy choice ever.

Because when you make the choice, you don't always know which is which?

[Maferath]

Filament wrote...

How dare you besmirch Mask of the Betrayer. I like that you get the best ending by recovering all the fragments of Akachi's soul. Get out of here.

Actually... the best ending was obtained by being an evil douchebag. 

[Maria Caliban]

Cimeas wrote...

How is the choice to succeed or fail a 'difficult moral choice'.  It's the most ridiculously easy choice ever.

Not everything has to be a moral choice. This isn't DnD. Your DM isn't sitting there with a ruler, waiting to smack your knuckles because your lawful good paladin told a lie.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 31 août 2013 - 11:38 .

[Fishy]

I remember my first playthrough of DA:O .. I Killed the Child. unknown that I had the time to go at the circle of magi come back and save him.. Unknown to me that I could romance two at the same time. I do these ''perfect'' playthrough once in a while. I do it because I want to see everything the game has to offer.

People will always metagame. The same way people will reload a previous save if they mess up something. You can't stop them from doing it, but you can stop you from doing it and enjoy the game like you want .

The same way you might drop the difficulty of a fight after losing 10 time in a row. I don't see the problem with this.