338 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

pdusen wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Doesn't he turn out to have been..... kinda wrong about that?

Not at all. Just because he *didn't* win doesn't mean he *couldn't have* won.

Well, with perfect knowledge of the future you can avoid ever getting into a no-win situation, sure. But without that, you can find yourself in such a situation through no fault of your own.

Also note that escaping all possible no-win situations would sometimes require leaving someone else holding the bag. Which is OK, if not all that heroic.

Modifié par AlanC9, 01 septembre 2013 - 06:06 .

[David7204]

No-Win situations should not exist in BIoWare stories. Narrative Causality prohibits it.

[Mummy22kids]

I like being able to save everyone. I usually don't check guides (because I come from a generation before the internet where you didn't really have a choice) but I will if I've done a number of playthroughs and not saved everyone. For example, in DAO I thought something horrible would happen if I left redcliffe without confronting the demon in the fade. So I would sacrifice Isolde. Once I found out that it isn't matter if I left Redcliffe (from reading guides) I was happy to be able to save her as well. In ME2 I lost everyone (non squad members) but the doctor may first playthrough. I far prefer the playthroughs where I save everyone.

[KiwiQuiche]

What, you want ham-fisted attempts at 'sacrifice' and 'feelz' like DA2 with mama Hawke? Yeah, 'cause that was pulled off well.

Or do you just want people to be punished for doing sensible things or being prepared, like that awesome SM example you pulled?

[AlanC9]

David, if you're going to drop your specialized jargon into threads all over the board, could you at least work up a sig that defines your terms? Even the Choose Wisely guys link to their vids.

Modifié par AlanC9, 01 septembre 2013 - 06:12 .

[KiwiQuiche]

Alan, don't feed the David.

[AlanC9]

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Or do you just want people to be punished for doing sensible things or being prepared, like that awesome SM example you pulled?

The SM's pretty easy to fix, actually. Just force the Reaper IFF mission right after Horizon.

Modifié par AlanC9, 01 septembre 2013 - 06:14 .

[KiwiQuiche]

AlanC9 wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...
Or do you just want people to be punished for doing sensible things or being prepared, like that awesome SM example you pulled?

The SM's pretty easy to fix, actually. Just force the Reaper IFF mission right after Horizon.

Yup, nothing like a Gung-Ho playthrough

[David7204]

Incredible things don't happen to people because they're in stories.

They're in stories because incredible things happen to them.

Thus, the fact that people can face no-win situations in real life is irrelevant. You don't have protagonists face no win situations (at least in BioWare games) for the same reason you don't have the hero gunned down by random mooks 20 minutes into the movie. Or die by slipping on the floor and breaking their neck. Or chocking on a walnut. Or die by any of the other thousands of ways people can die in real life, no matter how likely it is. You would never have a character in a BioWare game die on a mundane side mission with no foreshadowing, no matter how possible it is in real life.

[David7204]

Consider Mass Effect. There are billions of soldiers in the galaxy. And during the events of the series, billions die. The vast majority probably don't die in climatic or satisfying ways at all. They don't have their courage or training count for anything. They don't get any of their questions answered. They lose. They try their hardest, and they fail. Their heroism counts for nothing. They get nuked or shot up or turned into husks.

Almost all of them.

Pure statistics tells us that someone, somewhere will have their heroism matter. They will have their choices matter. They will their questions answered. It's rare. It's one in a million. One in a billion. But it happens.

We don't tell stories about the 999,999,999 who fail. We tell stories about the one who succeeds.

That's WHY the story is about Shepard. Not the other 999,999,999. The one.

[Dave of Canada]

David7204 wrote...

Incredible things don't happen to people because they're in stories.

They're in stories because incredible things happen to them.

Then you don't read many stories.

[David7204]

Is that the best argument you have?

[Dave of Canada]

No, I've just argued with this flawed logic many times before and grow weary.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 01 septembre 2013 - 06:30 .

[David7204]

Gosh, isn't that convienant for you?

I have an idea. Why don't you name a single story for me where nothing unusual happens to the protagonist?

Modifié par David7204, 01 septembre 2013 - 06:36 .

[BlueMagitek]

David7204 wrote...

Thus, the fact that people can face no-win situations in real life is irrelevant. You don't have protagonists face no win situations (at least in BioWare games) for the same reason you don't have the hero gunned down by random mooks 20 minutes into the movie. Or die by slipping on the floor and breaking their neck. Or chocking on a walnut. Or die by any of the other thousands of ways people can die in real life, no matter how likely it is.

This is entirely untrue.  From tragic endings to entire stories being written about (and in times, celebrating) heroism in the face of such conditions.  There are even games about it, where the ending is already decided in advance such as Halo Reach, not even mentioning the scenarios inside individual games which end in your failure and death (WoL's Protoss campaign).

Mass Effect 2 had Shepard die ~ 5 minutes into the game.  NN taken out by rocks.  In Baldur's Gate, if your companion was gibbed on whatever random mission you were on, game over for that guy.  Could be a lucky crit from a kobold.

No win situations come up.

[AlanC9]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
The SM's pretty easy to fix, actually. Just force the Reaper IFF mission right after Horizon.

Yup, nothing like a Gung-Ho playthrough

Hey, how does Shep know things won't get worse on the derelict Reaper? Come to think of it, why don't they?

Except that we can't actually fail to get the IFF, of course.

[David7204]

BlueMagitek wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Thus, the fact that people can face no-win situations in real life is irrelevant. You don't have protagonists face no win situations (at least in BioWare games) for the same reason you don't have the hero gunned down by random mooks 20 minutes into the movie. Or die by slipping on the floor and breaking their neck. Or chocking on a walnut. Or die by any of the other thousands of ways people can die in real life, no matter how likely it is.

This is entirely untrue.  From tragic endings to entire stories being written about (and in times, celebrating) heroism in the face of such conditions.  There are even games about it, where the ending is already decided in advance such as Halo Reach, not even mentioning the scenarios inside individual games which end in your failure and death (WoL's Protoss campaign).

Mass Effect 2 had Shepard die ~ 5 minutes into the game.  NN taken out by rocks.  In Baldur's Gate, if your companion was gibbed on whatever random mission you were on, game over for that guy.  Could be a lucky crit from a kobold.

No win situations come up.

First of all, you can always find a few expections to every rule. That doesn't mean the general rule doesn't hold.

Secondly, these examples don't really count. I'm talking about no-win situations concerning the overall conflict, not temporary setbacks which pretty much all stories have. Shepard dies, but she's revived. Reach is overrun, but the Covenent are defeated.

Modifié par David7204, 01 septembre 2013 - 06:40 .

[Zeta42]

Cimeas wrote...

 There is a colossal problem in Bioware games.   It is that the 'choice' between an objectively bad ending, and an objectively good one isn't a choice at all. 

Example: ME2

Remember Mass Effect 2?  Bioware wanted you to lose someone.  They wanted the ending to be 'bittersweet', rather than triumphant.  Even if you did all the loyalty missions, you might see Kelly die, or send the wrong person down the vents, or pick a wrong leader.   The reality though, was simple:  ANYONE who actually gave a **** about the franchise paused the game, opened their internet browser, and googled 'suicide mission guide', and got everyone out.    Perhaps they even spoiled some of the game in the process.

And so in the end, Bioware's attempt to add emotional salt to the game failed miserably, since any player who actually cared made damn sure they didn't lose a single person, and as such the ending was the triumph the developers wanted to avoid.

...

Once again, unless you are roleplaying a moron (which I'd wager most people are not), you are ALWAYS going to want to save everyone and pick the best options.  Even if people die, surely you'd rather they die at your hands than be killed by someone (or something) else.  

In essence, you cannot say "choose between something that sucks, and the good ending", and expect players to settle for the bad one.  It just doesn't work.

I disagree. Sure, many players wanted to keep all their crewmembers alive, but equally many actually wanted some of them dead. ME2 offered a great opportunity to kill off whoever you didn't like. On my first playthrough, Jack died while holding the line, and I was happy with that, even though it was an accident.
The same with DA2, where Varric was the only one who could never leave Hawke (justified because he was the narrator and thus stayed with Hawke until the end). Everyone else could be kicked out of your party for good, and some could even die by your hand - even your second sibling, which I found fantastic. I might be the only one who liked DA2's ending and the game in general, though, but that's not the point. Bioware gives you a chance to save everyone or deliberately get rid of certain party members - the choice is yours. If they stay true to this principle in DA:I as well, it'll make me glad.

[AlanC9]

David7204 wrote...

Secondly, these examples don't really count. I'm talking about no-win situations to the overall conflict, not temporary setbacks which pretty much all stories have. Shepard dies, but she's revived. Reach is overrun, but the Covenent are defeated.

That's an awfully limited sense of no-win situation. i can only think of a couple of games that went that route, and they're decades old.

[David7204]

Right. That's precisely the point. You don't have no win situations in stories, and rightly so. They ****** people off. They betray a justified expectation.

Even before the story begins, we expect to defeat the Reapers somehow. Even before the story begins, we expect to defeat whatever the Inquisitor is fighting somehow. As soon as Voldemort is introduced, we expect Harry to defeat him, somehow, at sometime. And if that doesn't happen, we get angry. And rightfully so.

That expectation is a result of Narrative Causality.

Modifié par David7204, 01 septembre 2013 - 06:52 .

[In Exile]

David7204 wrote...

Right. That's precisely the point. You don't have no win situations in stories, and rightly so. They ****** people off. They betray a justified expectation.

See, this is where you're wrong. In video-games is not the same thing as in stories. 

[David7204]

It is the same thing. Many of the fallacies people hold about video games stem from thinking they're exempt from the rules other stories follow. They generally aren't.

[Direwolf0294]

Mass Effect 2 did things right, imo. The ending you got was a culmination of your choices made throughout the game, instead of everyone getting to the same spot and then picking ending a, b or c.

You shouldn't write an RPGs story with the fact that some people are going to use guides and walkthroughs in mind. Write the story you want, and if people want to spoil how things turn out for themselves it's their own fault.

[In Exile]

David7204 wrote...

It is the same thing. Many of the fallacies people hold about video games stem from thinking they're exempt from the rules other stories follow. They generally aren't.

No, it isn't. This heroes journey overpowered protagonist power fantasy is a small portion of literature. 

[Ananka]

I'm not sure I get the complaint. If you don't want to use guides, don't. Make your choices and take the ending that you get. But if I want to play the hero and I spend enough time exploring and upgrading, doing loyalty quests and whatnot I sure as hell don't want to be forced into a grimdark bs ending or having a companion die a completely pointless death just because some people think that endings shouldn't be happy.

With Connor in DA:O I don't see a reason why it shouldn't be possible to go get the mages. My warden was a circle mage who'd already been to the tower and saved the mages and who knows that mages can enter the fade. She even knows the mages of the circle personally. She's been to the fade and she's encountered demons before. Why shouldn't she be able to get the help of her old mentor Irving and enter the fade? Just because some players don't think it's dark enough? 

In ME2 I got "no one left behind" on my first playthrough. It wasn't all that impossible if you payed attention to the game and your companions and it didn't require any guides. In NWN2 MotB I did not get all the masks on my first playthrough, but I did get them in later playthroughs, without resorting to a guide, just by doing some more exploring. It's not impossible and I don't think it cheapens the story that there is a good ending if you try hard enough.

Modifié par Annaka, 01 septembre 2013 - 07:03 .