132 réponses à ce sujet

[sharkboy421]

Examurai1 wrote...

Alright I feel I have to say this despite the amount of RPG games I've played but what's the difference between a 'twitch' based combat and 'non twitch' combat?
Can someone give me an example since there has been a lot of mention of this in the last couple of days? Seems like its a big deal to some people.

DAO and DA2 are examples of of 'non-twitch" combat.  While you still have to react to the situation unfolding in real time, you are more of acting as a commander than as a soldier.  You give your party commands and they carry them out.  It is also much more reliant on stats and number crunching than 'twitch' combat.

Dark Souls, Dragon's Dogma and The Witcher 2 are all 'twitch' combat.  Instead of giving a command to your character, you are actively controlling them.  When I tell Hawke to attack that ogre, she will attack it without any further input from me.  She'll probably die if I don't give further commands but she will fight on her own.  However in The Witcher 2, I have to actively make Geralt attack, dodge and parry.  The ability to win in a 'twitch' game is based much more on the player's skill in reacting than on the character's skill.

The most common 'twitch' based combat games are FPS.  In BF3 when I meet another player, its generally the player who is faster to aim and more accurate with his shots that win (so usually not me).  Think of twitch as reacting to the actual fighting while the alternative is reacting to the battle as a whole.

[Maria Caliban]

What is it that looks twitchy to you, Aren?

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 01 septembre 2013 - 04:26 .

[leaguer of one]

ArenCordial wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

ArenCordial wrote...

Neither DAO or DA2 was really twitch.

DAI looks to be though, unfortunately.  

I really hope so, just to ****** off everyone off.

You do realise that was the console version shown.

You're expecting them to make 2 completely different combat systems?  Would be nice and allow them to cater to more different player types but I doubt it.   The only thing I've heard is each platform will have its own interface which is a very different thing.

Have you played the console version of DA:O and DA2? It's just like what we saw at pax...Especially when they were fighting the red templers in the cave.
DAO and DA2 pc and console versoin have different feels due to how it's controled. 

[OLDIRTYBARON]

Man, some people really have no idea what a twitch game actually looks like. Unreal Tournament is a "twitch" game. Twitch games rely on instant reflex and map/pattern memorization to compete in a game world. Most twitch games are shooters, although some are 3rd person like a Devil May Cry.

Dragon Age has not, has never been, and probably never will be a twitch based game. Ever. Just because something is fast doesn't mean it's twitch.

Oh and one more thing: The DA3 gameplay demo looked exactly like Origins and Dragon Age 2 before it. It's an evolution of that kind of game, at least the console version, anyhow.

[ArenCordial]

Maria Caliban wrote...

What is it that looks twitchy to you, Aren?

Did you not find the timed dodges and attacks twitchy?  Dodging to avoid the dragon's fire?   Plus the whole "outpace their turn radius" thing screams twitch from the GI video.

Basically I'm not really a fan of seeing gameplay be changed to where timing and reactions are king.  Don't get me wrong I've played plenty of arpgs:  Both Souls games, Amalur, TW2, Dragon's Dogma, etc.   Its just Dragon Age had its own gameplay style going and I enjoyed the break from the roll, roll, roll, slash of the above listed games.  

Its much harder to find a good command/faux turn based game like the first two Dragon Ages.  I'd rather them have stayed true to what they were doing and work out the kinks.  I'm not a fan of when a preexisting series changes its gameplay type.  Sequels should have more in common with one another than the name, setting, and a few characters.

Modifié par ArenCordial, 01 septembre 2013 - 05:14 .

[Examurai]

sharkboy421 wrote...

Examurai1 wrote...

Alright I feel I have to say this despite the amount of RPG games I've played but what's the difference between a 'twitch' based combat and 'non twitch' combat?
Can someone give me an example since there has been a lot of mention of this in the last couple of days? Seems like its a big deal to some people.

DAO and DA2 are examples of of 'non-twitch" combat.  While you still have to react to the situation unfolding in real time, you are more of acting as a commander than as a soldier.  You give your party commands and they carry them out.  It is also much more reliant on stats and number crunching than 'twitch' combat.

Dark Souls, Dragon's Dogma and The Witcher 2 are all 'twitch' combat.  Instead of giving a command to your character, you are actively controlling them.  When I tell Hawke to attack that ogre, she will attack it without any further input from me.  She'll probably die if I don't give further commands but she will fight on her own.  However in The Witcher 2, I have to actively make Geralt attack, dodge and parry.  The ability to win in a 'twitch' game is based much more on the player's skill in reacting than on the character's skill.

The most common 'twitch' based combat games are FPS.  In BF3 when I meet another player, its generally the player who is faster to aim and more accurate with his shots that win (so usually not me).  Think of twitch as reacting to the actual fighting while the alternative is reacting to the battle as a whole.

I see. Now I understand why it could be a big deal to some people. 

Thanks for answering.

[slimgrin]

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

Man, some people really have no idea what a twitch game actually looks like. Unreal Tournament is a "twitch" game. Twitch games rely on instant reflex and map/pattern memorization to compete in a game world. Most twitch games are shooters, although some are 3rd person like a Devil May Cry.

Dragon Age has not, has never been, and probably never will be a twitch based game. Ever. Just because something is fast doesn't mean it's twitch.

Oh and one more thing: The DA3 gameplay demo looked exactly like Origins and Dragon Age 2 before it. It's an evolution of that kind of game, at least the console version, anyhow.

People are aware, but they may be blending both approaches. *gasp* god forbid...

Modifié par slimgrin, 01 septembre 2013 - 04:37 .

[ArenCordial]

leaguer of one wrote...

Have you played the console version of DA:O and DA2? It's just like what we saw at pax...Especially when they were fighting the red templers in the cave.
DAO and DA2 pc and console versoin have different feels due to how it's controled. 

Did the console version have timed dodges?  I know DA2 had button mashing for basic attacks rather than the PC's auto attacks but I thought they weren't that different, aside from that and a ME style radial menu.

Hopefully the devs will release more gameplay soon so we can see the differences.  Personally as long as I don't really need to rely on reflexes and timing, and never need to press a dodge button while having the over the shoulder camera similar to DAO, I'll be happy as a lark.

The game looks pretty good otherwise.

[Bleachrude]

Dodging does NOT mean twitch combat. It is quite easy to code dodging into the mechanics of the game.

Assume a character has a defense value and an armor rating.

Defense value is made up of level + dodge skill/ dexterity attribut e and the armour rating is whatever you're actually wearing.

If an attack has a high enough rating to breach the unmodified defense rating but NOT the midified defense rating due to dodge skill/dexterity, the computer may automatically use the dodge animation.

If the attack is too weak, no animation is used on the defender, but instead the attack actually misses the character.

If the attack breaches the modified DV, damage is done but then armour subtracts whatever damage is actually dealt and the animation will show that the attack actually hits the character...

[ArenCordial]

Bleachrude wrote...

Dodging does NOT mean twitch combat. It is quite easy to code dodging into the mechanics of the game.

Assume a character has a defense value and an armor rating.

Defense value is made up of level + dodge skill/ dexterity attribut e and the armour rating is whatever you're actually wearing.

If an attack has a high enough rating to breach the unmodified defense rating but NOT the midified defense rating due to dodge skill/dexterity, the computer may automatically use the dodge animation.

If the attack is too weak, no animation is used on the defender, but instead the attack actually misses the character.

If the attack breaches the modified DV, damage is done but then armour subtracts whatever damage is actually dealt and the animation will show that the attack actually hits the character...

Except Allan confirmed it was an ability and in the GI video you could see the dev hitting a key over and over.   Its not a stat.

[leaguer of one]

ArenCordial wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Have you played the console version of DA:O and DA2? It's just like what we saw at pax...Especially when they were fighting the red templers in the cave.
DAO and DA2 pc and console versoin have different feels due to how it's controled. 

Did the console version have timed dodges?  I know DA2 had button mashing for basic attacks rather than the PC's auto attacks but I thought they weren't that different, aside from that and a ME style radial menu.

Hopefully the devs will release more gameplay soon so we can see the differences.  Personally as long as I don't really need to rely on reflexes and timing, and never need to press a dodge button while having the over the shoulder camera similar to DAO, I'll be happy as a lark.

The game looks pretty good otherwise.

1. The console version can turn the auto attacks off.
2. DA2 had command rolls and back flips for rogues. Both could be used for escapes just like with the roll in da:i... And we don't know the full extent of the ability yet.

[leaguer of one]

ArenCordial wrote...

Bleachrude wrote...

Dodging does NOT mean twitch combat. It is quite easy to code dodging into the mechanics of the game.

Assume a character has a defense value and an armor rating.

Defense value is made up of level + dodge skill/ dexterity attribut e and the armour rating is whatever you're actually wearing.

If an attack has a high enough rating to breach the unmodified defense rating but NOT the midified defense rating due to dodge skill/dexterity, the computer may automatically use the dodge animation.

If the attack is too weak, no animation is used on the defender, but instead the attack actually misses the character.

If the attack breaches the modified DV, damage is done but then armour subtracts whatever damage is actually dealt and the animation will show that the attack actually hits the character...

Except Allan confirmed it was an ability and in the GI video you could see the dev hitting a key over and over.   Its not a stat.

So you also missed the roll and backflip abilities for rogues in da 2?

[ArenCordial]

leaguer of one wrote...
]1. The console version can turn the auto attacks off.
2. DA2 had command rolls and back flips for rogues. Both could be used for escapes just like with the roll in da:i... And we don't know the full extent of the ability yet.

Yeah makes more sense for the Rogue and I remember those abilities.   The Inquisitors roll seems to have near no cooldown though unlike what I remember for the Rogue (though I could be wrong on that).  If is a use whenever ability but cost stamina that's the same as Dark Souls....and that game is the king of twitch.

leaguer of one wrote...

So you also missed the roll and backflip abilities for rogues in da 2?

Reread what he wrote, an auto-defense stat with animation doesn't equal ability.

Modifié par ArenCordial, 01 septembre 2013 - 04:55 .

[leaguer of one]

ArenCordial wrote...



Yeah makes more sense for the Rogue and I remember those abilities.   The Inquisitors roll seems to have near no cooldown though unlike what I remember for the Rogue (though I could be wrong on that).  If is a use whenever ability but cost stamina that's the same as Dark Souls....and that game is the king of twitch.

We don't know if it has a cooldown or not. It was not used over and over again in the video like in action games. It was far more event based.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 01 septembre 2013 - 04:55 .

[leaguer of one]

[quote]ArenCordial wrote...

.

So you also missed the roll and backflip abilities for rogues in da 2?

[/quote]

Reread what he wrote, an auto-defense stat with animation doesn't equal ability.[/quote]The bacflip and roll in DA2 also avoides hits as well.

[ArenCordial]

leaguer of one wrote...

We don't know if it has a cooldown or not. It was not used over and over again in the video like in action games. It was far more event based.

He did use it in pretty rapid succession fighting the Red Templars in the keep.  Probably a little more than a second or two between uses at one point.  But no we don't know for sure.  We only have what they have shown us to talk about....which we are.

[ArenCordial]

leaguer of one wrote...
]The bacflip and roll in DA2 also avoides hits as well.

No no he was saying it might be an animation played by a defensive roll value because the attack failed an attack roll.  We know from Allan its not. 

Modifié par ArenCordial, 01 septembre 2013 - 05:01 .

[leaguer of one]

ArenCordial wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

We don't know if it has a cooldown or not. It was not used over and over again in the video like in action games. It was far more event based.

He did use it in pretty rapid succession fighting the Red Templars in the keep.  Probably a little more than a second or two between uses at one point.  But no we don't know for sure.  We only have what they have shown us to talk about....which we are.

In the video I sa he used it 3 times and not in a row.

[Rockpopple]

Keep in mind that there's a lot more to the gameplay demo, including the use of the tactical camera and full-party control and a dragon battle. Can't wait for those videos to come out to the public.

[ArenCordial]

leaguer of one wrote...

In the video I sa he used it 3 times and not in a row.

Ah your right there.  I went back to the video I saw it in.  Now that I've seen other videos,  I can see  that one was spliced. 

Modifié par ArenCordial, 01 septembre 2013 - 05:13 .

[ArenCordial]

Rockpopple wrote...

Keep in mind that there's a lot more to the gameplay demo, including the use of the tactical camera and full-party control and a dragon battle. Can't wait for those videos to come out to the public.

It would be nice to see and ideally the differences b/w the platforms as well so we can see just what options we have.  They mentioned Eternity and X-Com in the GI videos, we've yet to see anything like those two yet.

[mikeymoonshine]

Wow, This blog has made me realize that I know and care about combat allot less than i thought I did :/

[slimgrin]

mikeymoonshine wrote...

Wow, This blog has made me realize that I know and care about combat allot less than i thought I did :/

It's twitch like Kingdoms of Amular/Darks Souls is, which might send DA fans into a frenzy...cuz it aint' smot enuf.

Modifié par slimgrin, 01 septembre 2013 - 05:26 .

[leaguer of one]

slimgrin wrote...

mikeymoonshine wrote...

Wow, This blog has made me realize that I know and care about combat allot less than i thought I did :/

It's twitch like Kingdoms of Amular/Darks Souls is, which might send DA fans into a frenzy...cuz it aint' smot enuf.

Nope, far from it.

[mikeymoonshine]

slimgrin wrote...

mikeymoonshine wrote...

Wow, This blog has made me realize that I know and care about combat allot less than i thought I did :/

It's twitch like Kingdoms of Amular/Darks Souls is, which might send DA fans into a frenzy...cuz it aint' smot enuf.

I think I understood it before :/ but I am a bit sleep deprived and It's all just to confusing for me atm. 

I still think they have allot more of the combat to show us though.