132 réponses à ce sujet

[slimgrin]

leaguer of one wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

mikeymoonshine wrote...

Wow, This blog has made me realize that I know and care about combat allot less than i thought I did :/

It's twitch like Kingdoms of Amular/Darks Souls is, which might send DA fans into a frenzy...cuz it aint' smot enuf.

Nope, far from it.

How so?

[AppealToReason]

I think i could live without the little zoom in thing when you're attacking because I like to know what's going on in my flanks but I'm sure there will be camera options.

I hope the roll is basically like Evade instead of like "click stick to roll away" or whatever

[OLDIRTYBARON]

slimgrin wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

mikeymoonshine wrote...

Wow, This blog has made me realize that I know and care about combat allot less than i thought I did :/

It's twitch like Kingdoms of Amular/Darks Souls is, which might send DA fans into a frenzy...cuz it aint' smot enuf.

Nope, far from it.

How so?

Because neither KoA nor Dark Souls are "twitch" games. Dark Souls especially. If you think Dark Souls has twitch gameplay you misunderstand the fundamental design of Dark Souls. Directly influencing your characters actions =/= twitch. 

[Ghost43]

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

mikeymoonshine wrote...

Wow, This blog has made me realize that I know and care about combat allot less than i thought I did :/

It's twitch like Kingdoms of Amular/Darks Souls is, which might send DA fans into a frenzy...cuz it aint' smot enuf.

Nope, far from it.

How so?

Because neither KoA nor Dark Souls are "twitch" games. Dark Souls especially. If you think Dark Souls has twitch gameplay you misunderstand the fundamental design of Dark Souls. Directly influencing your characters actions =/= twitch. 

Not as far as this forum is concerned, sadly.

[suprhomre]

cjones91 wrote...

suprhomre wrote...

More hack and slash please and less pretentious combat view and so on. It was boring in DAO, it had no action. DA2 combat system was so stiffed because of the strategy element but much more fun compared to DAO. I would prefer a simpler mechanic like ME, where you maybe use the combat tactic once and awhile not mandatory everytime. It's suppose to be fun not painstakingly fun. So, good work BioWare we who love action games love you for making it fun. Because DA2 was very fun to play.

So...why do you play Dragon Age when there are tons of games that are hack and slash?

BioWare have better story in general, except for DA2 and ME3.

[fchopin]

I like the combat so far, it does look a little twitchy but i have no problem with it.
I also like the no level scaling.

I think TW3 has real competition now with DAI so we could have two great RPG's next year.

[Zakuspec089]

I like RPG games with Third Person Action instead of Tactics, I don't like tactics because I like controlling my character like you can do in Mass Effect, Elder Scrolls, Witcher and few others. I played dragon age and Kotor.

[Zakuspec089]

BioWare have better story in general, except for DA2 and ME3.

[/quote]

Mass Effect 3 wasnt terrible it was fun and enjoyable, the story was still great. I enjoyed Mass Effect 3. I liked Mass Effect, Mass Effect 3 the best with all the DLC than Mass Effect 2. Mass Effect is a awesome series. I would get back into dragon age if they allowed Third Person Action/RPG as well. I'm not into tactics like I mentioned before. That what I think.

Modifié par Zakuspec089, 01 septembre 2013 - 03:05 .

[Fast Jimmy]

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

mikeymoonshine wrote...

Wow, This blog has made me realize that I know and care about combat allot less than i thought I did :/

It's twitch like Kingdoms of Amular/Darks Souls is, which might send DA fans into a frenzy...cuz it aint' smot enuf.

Nope, far from it.

How so?

Because neither KoA nor Dark Souls are "twitch" games. Dark Souls especially. If you think Dark Souls has twitch gameplay you misunderstand the fundamental design of Dark Souls. Directly influencing your characters actions =/= twitch. 

Yes. Yes it is. 

If you prefer, you can call it "action RPG" combat instead of twitch. 

But either way - it is based on player skill, not character stats. Just like God of War, or Devil May Cry... you dodging attacks and aiming attacks at your enemies is action gameplay. Period. 

Nothing wrong with it in a single player game like TW, or KoA, or Dark Souls. And it doesn't mean there isn't any strategy or tactics. But it DOES make it anti-theitical to a party-based game. 

Could you control a character in KoA or Dark Souls with high Agility/Dexterity and still get hit because you didn't press the button fast enough? Could you control a character that was a lunk with the lowest stats possible and still manage to avoid all damageby being a master of dodging? Then that is action or twitch gameplay. Player skill being dominant.

For a party-based game, you have to be able to give a command to a party member and have them be able to execute that command just as effectively (or non-effectively) if the player takes direct control or if the AI is following the player's instructions. If not, where you can do a barrel roll dodge to avoid damage by timing it "just right" means that controlling the party takes a backseat to controlling one player at a time. Which is not how the DA games were built, nor the direction they should move in, according to myself as well as the DA team devs. 

[Sasie]

The enemies with big shields are what made me sigh. I remember how annoying it was to fight enemies like that in Dragon age 2, Positioning matter in tactical games as well but there is a difference between clicking to move your army around in say Baldur's gate 2 to personally moving the character around the enemy in Dragon age. You could click as well in DA2 but I always found the characters never quite behaved as I instructed unless I personally controlled them to do it myself.

Tactical gameplay in a action RPG just is the worst combination there is.

Modifié par Sasie, 01 septembre 2013 - 03:28 .

[OLDIRTYBARON]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Yes. Yes it is. 

If you prefer, you can call it "action RPG" combat instead of twitch. 

But either way - it is based on player skill, not character stats. Just like God of War, or Devil May Cry... you dodging attacks and aiming attacks at your enemies is action gameplay. Period. 

Nothing wrong with it in a single player game like TW, or KoA, or Dark Souls. And it doesn't mean there isn't any strategy or tactics. But it DOES make it anti-theitical to a party-based game. 

Could you control a character in KoA or Dark Souls with high Agility/Dexterity and still get hit because you didn't press the button fast enough? Could you control a character that was a lunk with the lowest stats possible and still manage to avoid all damageby being a master of dodging? Then that is action or twitch gameplay. Player skill being dominant.

For a party-based game, you have to be able to give a command to a party member and have them be able to execute that command just as effectively (or non-effectively) if the player takes direct control or if the AI is following the player's instructions. If not, where you can do a barrel roll dodge to avoid damage by timing it "just right" means that controlling the party takes a backseat to controlling one player at a time. Which is not how the DA games were built, nor the direction they should move in, according to myself as well as the DA team devs. 

Oh for ****'s sakes.

Twitch gameplay is based on speed and reaction time. It carries a very, very fast pace and is reserved, usually, for action games like Devil May Cry or lightning speed shooters like Unreal Tournament. Or Quake 3. Those are games that are not influenced by character stats at all, instead relying solely on player skill to progress.

Kingdoms of Amalur and Dark Souls don't solely rely on reaction times. They have a much slower pace, and building your character is as influential on the difficulty of combat and your prowess at combat as reflex and reactions. It doesn't matter, for instance, how fast you can press a button in Dark Souls to dodge-roll. What does matter is what armour you wear and your current equipment burden. If you want fast attack, dump points into dexterity. If you want strong attacks, spend on strength. If these were twitch-based games you would need only to rely on player skill and reflexes, right? Too bad that isn't the case, or else Dark Souls would have been a **** of a lot easier to beat.

TL;DR Just because you initiate the dodge roll yourself does not make it ****ing twitch. At all. And if you notice, that's the single point of contention I've had in this thread - that people insist on referring to it as "twitch" gameplay when they have nothing to do with each other, at all. I personally don't care if DA3 has combat primarily dictated by player action or if they focus on the pseudo turn based, pause and play style from the Infinity Engine games. The inclusion of a dodge mechanic does not make your game ****ing twitchy.

Modifié par OLDIRTYBARON, 01 septembre 2013 - 03:30 .

[Spectre slayer]

People seriously need to calm down the combat is not twitchy and there is a tactical camera where you have full control of your party just like in DAO and this time it will be on all consules.

Want to pull the camera back, place you and your teammates, order them which enemy to attack, can create a wall of ice that cuts off enemies blocks archers while you focus on specific enemies and can also use it for defense, see a bridge with archers that seems weak freeze your enemies run up attack the bridge it breaks they all die when it falls.

Modifié par Spectre slayer, 01 septembre 2013 - 03:43 .

[Fast Jimmy]

TL;DR Just because you initiate the dodge roll yourself does not make it ****ing twitch. At all. And if you notice, that's the single point of contention I've had in this thread - that people insist on referring to it as "twitch" gameplay when they have nothing to do with each other, at all. I personally don't care if DA3 has combat primarily dictated by player action or if they focus on the pseudo turn based, pause and play style from the Infinity Engine games. The inclusion of a dodge mechanic does not make your game ****ing twitchy.

It makes it an action RPG, which only works in a balanced format for an RPG with single character control, not party control.

The ME series is an action RPG for the same reasons - you use the player's aiming skill to do damage. Yet you never take direct control over your squadmates. Same for The Witcher, or KoA, or Dark Souls. Yes, their stats and equipment affect response times, etc., but it is still firmly rooted in the player inputting the right skills at the right time in a second-by-second basis.

That's an action game. The degrees of separation between that and a twitch-based shooter like Quake are a matter of irrelevancy - none of them work in a party-based game.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 01 septembre 2013 - 03:36 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Spectre slayer wrote...

People seriously need to calm down the combat is not twitchy and there is a tactical camera where you have full control of your party just like in DAO and this time it will be on all consules.

NBA or racing games also have an overhead camera. Does that make them tactical, party-based RPGs as well? No. It does not. 

I'm not saying DA:I is an action RPG, but it does have some elements that make me cautious for them to include in a party-based game. 

[Mclouvins]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Spectre slayer wrote...

People seriously need to calm down the combat is not twitchy and there is a tactical camera where you have full control of your party just like in DAO and this time it will be on all consules.

NBA or racing games also have an overhead camera. Does that make them tactical, party-based RPGs as well? No. It does not. 

I'm not saying DA:I is an action RPG, but it does have some elements that make me cautious for them to include in a party-based game. 

The video did show the dodge being queued up as ability called "Army Roll".

[Spectre slayer]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Spectre slayer wrote...

People seriously need to calm down the combat is not twitchy and there is a tactical camera where you have full control of your party just like in DAO and this time it will be on all consules.

NBA or racing games also have an overhead camera. Does that make them tactical, party-based RPGs as well? No. It does not. 

I'm not saying DA:I is an action RPG, but it does have some elements that make me cautious for them to include in a party-based game. 

That's true but I actually saw the demo and was editing my post to include what was there.

[Fast Jimmy]

Mclouvins wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Spectre slayer wrote...

People seriously need to calm down the combat is not twitchy and there is a tactical camera where you have full control of your party just like in DAO and this time it will be on all consules.

NBA or racing games also have an overhead camera. Does that make them tactical, party-based RPGs as well? No. It does not. 

I'm not saying DA:I is an action RPG, but it does have some elements that make me cautious for them to include in a party-based game. 

The video did show the dodge being queued up as ability called "Army Roll". 

I did see that. 

The cooldown of the skill, the availability to what classes and the possibility of mapping it to the Tactics screen to see if it can be used without direct timing and input from the player are all things that can work out in favor of the skill from being something like KoA or TW1, or if it is something that can fit logically into a party-based game. 

[Angrywolves]

Not a surprise that some traditionalists would object to the action rpg feel of the combat .
Bioware has been moving in that direction for some time now.
It hasn't been a secret.
The game is going to be like this so traditionalists , and I am one of those will have to accept.
Bioware is going after the skyrim / Bethesda players clearly wanting them to buy DAI so they will do whatever is necessary to attract them.
So objecting to the combat is pointless.
Either bu the game or don't . shrugs.

[OLDIRTYBARON]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

TL;DR Just because you initiate the dodge roll yourself does not make it ****ing twitch. At all. And if you notice, that's the single point of contention I've had in this thread - that people insist on referring to it as "twitch" gameplay when they have nothing to do with each other, at all. I personally don't care if DA3 has combat primarily dictated by player action or if they focus on the pseudo turn based, pause and play style from the Infinity Engine games. The inclusion of a dodge mechanic does not make your game ****ing twitchy.

It makes it an action RPG, which only works in a balanced format for an RPG with single character control, not party control.

The ME series is an action RPG for the same reasons - you use the player's aiming skill to do damage. Yet you never take direct control over your squadmates. Same for The Witcher, or KoA, or Dark Souls. Yes, their stats and equipment affect response times, etc., but it is still firmly rooted in the player inputting the right skills at the right time in a second-by-second basis.

That's an action game. The degrees of separation between that and a twitch-based shooter like Quake are a matter of irrelevancy - none of them work in a party-based game.

Except they do, because Dragon's Dogma proved it last year. Dragon's Dogma was definitely a party-based RPG whose mechanics focused on team work to overcome challenging obstacles. That's neither here nor there, though, because Dragon Age 3 isn't going to be that kind of game.

From the gameplay demo shown at PAX BioWare has shown its commitment to playing your own way. People who prefer the more action oriented style of gameplay are being served with a more singular character focus in the vein of a Dragon's Dogma, but so are the people who prefer the cRPGs from the Infinity Engine era. They've shown the tactical view and used it to great effect in the demo. It looked great. It looked exactly like Origins did, except the animations were better and the spell casting looked far more bombastic. During the tactical view, nobody dodge rolled and positioning and movement mattered far more. Blocking off enemies with an ice wall was how the party negated enemy spell casting, for instance. 

I don't even know what we're arguing about anymore. From everything BioWare has shown at PAX Dragon Age 3 will service both their Action RPG audience and their cRPG audience. 

[MerinTB]

KoA:R, as much as I love it, is an action game. It's combat was designed by a fighting game developer. The combat was meant to be hands-on and exciting. Your stats affect damage you do and damage you take in combat, but it is your skill at fighting using the controls and not your character's skills that win the fight.

Anyone who thinks that KoA:R's combat isn't action (twitch if you will) doesn't know who made the game and the designs goals involved.

[Fast Jimmy]

Dragon's Dogma was not a party-based game. You did not control all members of the party equally. You had your main character and you worked with your Pawns. You did not command them as equally as you commanded your PC.

That's what a party-based RPG is. Like Baldur's Gate and the DA games - you can give orders and take control of each character in the party equally. You can give an order and have it executed just the same as if you took control of the character yourself and performed the action.

When elements of timing and player skill are added, where the success of the action is made better or worse by virtue of the fact that player is directly in control, then that is anti-theitical to a party-based RPG.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 01 septembre 2013 - 03:54 .

[MerinTB]

I haven't seen footage of a tactical camera yet - does someone have a link?

Because if you go back, you had the BioWare team telling us that DA2 had a tactical camera all the way up to after release.

Don't believe it until you see it.

[OLDIRTYBARON]

MerinTB wrote...

I haven't seen footage of a tactical camera yet - does someone have a link?

Because if you go back, you had the BioWare team telling us that DA2 had a tactical camera all the way up to after release.

Don't believe it until you see it.

Check any of the PAX threads. We have seen it. It is real.

@Fast Jimmy: under your narrow definition Mass Effect doesn't count as a party based RPG either, which is just stupid.

[Tinxa]

Every video so far was played with the Xbox controller.

I don't know about you but to me everything played with the xbox controller looks like a singleplayer action game.

I wouldn't panic until we see PC gameplay. Also I think a lot of it depends on the player. If someone rarely pauses and only controls the PC directly that doesn't mean you can't play VERY differently and micromanage your party.

[The Elder King]

MerinTB wrote...

I haven't seen footage of a tactical camera yet - does someone have a link?

Because if you go back, you had the BioWare team telling us that DA2 had a tactical camera all the way up to after release.

Don't believe it until you see it.

It was shown.
http://m.youtube.com...C4TjnftGq-HG6UA
watch the third video.