134 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

'Mooks' is not a catch all term for any challenge or obstacle in a game. They're low-level combat minions. That's all they are.

[Mykel54]

I have to admit that it is a becoming a recurring plot of bioware to add insane enemies, even in the DA2 dlc like Legacy, those carta dwarves where also insane.. I remember fondly how in DAO most enemies you fight are either brainless (darkspawn, or undead) or have actual reasons to fight you (loghain´s men, bandits and mercs, carta thugs and king supporters, etc.).

I would rather the humanoid enemies oppose you for reasons that make sense, and not just because they are nuts. I found DAO very interesting because it combined faceless mooks (darkspawn) with an ambivalent enemy (zevran, ser cauthrien, anora, even loghain´s men were somewhat sympathetic, like the dude who demands a duel.) that has plenty of reason for fighting you. Even Kolgrim and his cultists when being butchered became reasonable, and where willing to bargain with you and even treat you like one of theirs. I doubt we will ever see more "crazies" that are even willing to speak before the protagonist must kill them.

[jontepwn]

I hope the Red Templars are a bit more than cannon fodder. Red Lyrium has too much potential than simply being the bath-salts version of regular lyrium.

Bioware seems to love enemies driven by insanity though. We'll see how it turns out.

[The Elder King]

The red lyrium seems to have its own plot in the game, according to the GI coverage.

[thats1evildude]

As I said in the other thread, there are good reasons for some of the templars to be using red lyrium.

The templars were always at a disadvantage in this conflict. First, they must contend with their addiction to lyrium. Secondly, even if they outnumber the mages, the mages can use blood magic and summon demons or become abominations themselves. And while there are a finite number of templars, whereas new mages come into their power every day.

Red lyrium gives the templars a new weapon. Sure, we all saw how it made Meredith crazy and turned her into a statue, but it also gave near-godlike power. She could have flattened the city if Hawke hadn't stopped her.

Your average templar is at least half as zealous as Meredith. I don't have a hard time believing that some would use red lyrium and risk madness and mutation to win this holy war. The worst that can happen is death, at which point (they believe) their souls will be called to the side of the Maker.

[Genshie]

David7204 wrote...

Well, puzzles games don't. Racing games don't. Construction and management games don't.

That is true I wasn't thinking of those. Let us just say most not all instead.

[Ianamus]

It could just be that 'red-templars' are Templars who believe that Meredith was in the right and that all mages, and any institution that seems to aid/recruit them like the inquisition, must be destroyed. The red lyrium could be as much a symbol as anything, as Meredith used it to increase her powers.

It did take years for her to turn insane, and we don't have that sort of time-frame in Inquisition, so they may not be insane yet.

[Genshie]

hhh89 wrote...

The red lyrium seems to have its own plot in the game, according to the GI coverage.

Hey I much rather they wrap this one up than just dropping it like how Mass Effect dropped Dark Energy plot after ME2.

[leaguer of one]

MisterJB wrote...

Bioware, when a Pro-Mage and a Pro-Templar agree on something regarding this conflict, perhaps it's time to take a step back and rethink what you are doing.

Seriously, why do people have problem with extremeist being extremist? Some templers will becaome extrimist while some mages become extremeist... This happen in real life in every heat war. Why is it a problem to illustrate this?

[Angrywolves]

The OP is off base.
There will be a lot more insane enemies in DAI.

[Ziggeh]

thats1evildude wrote...

The templars were always at a disadvantage in this conflict. First, they must contend with their addiction to lyrium. Secondly, even if they outnumber the mages, the mages can use blood magic and summon demons or become abominations themselves.

That's actually pretty strong, thematically. That they would turn to red lyrium in desperation, as mages do to demons and blood magic. Shoes on other feet and all that.

To the topic in general though: While I agree Meredith's insanity was unsatisfying, I think provided there are human, sane motives as antagonists, there is room for the insane. In the same way the Blight presented an objectively evil foe wasn't a problem, as they weren't alone in opposing you. As to red lyrium specifically though, I would rather hope that it itself is the means of some motive - if Meredith et al are painted as pawns in a larger plot rather than simply barking mad.

[Sidney]

I find it odd anyone could complain about enemies with "bad" motivations given that the main antagonists in DAO were functionally speaking zombies who just like to kill and have no will and Loghain's "reason" for fighting you borders on insane for how clueless it is - yes, we should be worried about some other country invading us when there is really no proof when we've got these freaky darkspawn rolling across the plains. Frankly, it was so bad I expected to find out the AD had been controlling him.

The crazy Cerberus guys have a motivation - the IM has a plan -- control - it gets corrupted and manipulated but you can still see "him" in the final battle. The fact that his mooks are all messed up is meaningless. The mages and templars in DA2 all have motivations that make sense. Is Meredith nuts at the end, yes but why does she go that way? Same with Orsino, we understand his desperation and fear. The chantry nuts have a motivations, the Qunari nuts have a motivations that make sense.

Crazy to you doesn't mean irrational to them. I think we can all agree that Islamic suicide bombers, Japanese Kamikazes, SS Einstazgruppenkommandos and such are crazy in some fashion but can you and I understand the motives of all those nutty types? Yes,

[deuce985]

MisterJB wrote...

deuce985 wrote...

Gotta love the assumptions in these threads. As if anyone has a clue as to where the plot will actually go.

It is where the plot has gone to in the last two Bioware games and thus, I think there is some basis for the fear that history is about to repeat itself.

Well, naturally it's going to follow what Bioware did in DA2. That would be writing inconsistency if they didn't. If you want to nitpick it, sure, it sounds similar. Why stop there though? Let's tear apart the rest of the DA plot points and compare it to other games or books. Let's look at other games similar to DA and do the same. It's really reaching, IMO.

Cerberus is nothing like the Templars. That much is fact. You don't even know how the lyrium works at this point other than making people blind with power. The Red Templars might not even have a prominent role in the game outside the region shown. It could be a very small splinter faction. That much in itself is different than Cerberus because they were your main enemy in ME3 between the Reapers. I can guarantee how they're corrupted is different than ME3's Cerberus too because I highly doubt they have implants of Reaper devices in their bodies to turn them into mindless cyborgs(or lyrium implants lol). What are their motivations? I seriously doubt they have the same motivations as Cerberus considering they don't even come close to the same ideology. I could go on all day with this.

Did people seriously find this surprising based on what's happened in DA? These splinter factions were inevitiable and I didn't find it shocking at all we would see something like this with the red lyrium. Especially since it was so vague in DA2 which I'm sure they'll do a much better job explaining in DA:I.

Modifié par deuce985, 01 septembre 2013 - 10:12 .

[deuce985]

StreetMagic wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Bioware, when a Pro-Mage and a Pro-Templar agree on something regarding this conflict, perhaps it's time to take a step back and rethink what you are doing.

Seriously, why do people have problem with extremeist being extremist? Some templers will becaome extrimist while some mages become extremeist... This happen in real life in every heat war. Why is it a problem to illustrate this?

Qunari are extremist too -- but they're not insane. They know what they're doing. They seem generally smarter and more deliberate in their actions.

Besides that, it's just fun to have different types of conflict. Sometimes it should be friends on the wrong sides, sometimes it's a criminal mastermind, sometimes it's political, etc.. Batman is not always fighting the Joker. Let alone waves and waves of mindless Joker clones.

HOW do you know the game won't have that though? You don't even know if all Red Templars are insane as you call it. Just because they're our enemies doesn't mean they lack a cause or motivation. What if you come across some who see the error in their ways and try to break free?

Modifié par deuce985, 01 septembre 2013 - 10:16 .

[Captain Obvious]

Foshizzlin wrote...

We had Loghain, who initially seemed like some kind of Shakespearean tragic-hero, but over the course of the game, proved a terrible leader going mad with power.

Actually, Loghain wasn't mad with power. Paranoid? Maybe. But not mad. He's actually the second best antagonist we had in a Dragon Age game, the first best antagonist being the Arashock.

[The Elder King]

I have a thought. Remember the fellow that gave the Inquisitor the helm/sword in the concepts in the DA site? If the rings in his hand were meant to indicate various factions in the game, the red ring could indicate the red templar faction, different from the templar and the seeker faction.

[mupp3tz]

Cap. Obvious wrote...

Foshizzlin wrote...

We had Loghain, who initially seemed like some kind of Shakespearean tragic-hero, but over the course of the game, proved a terrible leader going mad with power.

Actually, Loghain wasn't mad with power. Paranoid? Maybe. But not mad. He's actually the second best antagonist we had in a Dragon Age game, the first best antagonist being the Arashock.

I would like to see more antagonists like this, instead of the "Oh lawdy, you been playing with the bad stuff!" reveal like the OP mentioned.

[Ryzaki]

Ziggeh wrote...

In Exile wrote...

That makes them stupid enemies. You'll just see threads about making enemies intelligent or not having the plot railroad you into not being able to explain yourself well. It's like the issue with the Council and Alliance in ME2.

Ah yes, "demons".

/dead

But yeah then the goal becomes "And why exactly can't we come to some sort of arrangement." 

Least with crazies you know that's a lost cause.

[phunx]

hhh89 wrote...

I have a thought. Remember the fellow that gave the Inquisitor the helm/sword in the concepts in the DA site? If the rings in his hand were meant to indicate various factions in the game, the red ring could indicate the red templar faction, different from the templar and the seeker faction.

I was thinking that as well!

On another note, I believe Bioware had ideas about red lyrium that were not disclosed in DA:2. The Destiny trailer shows Hawke with red glowy eyes (like Meredith had at the end). So I believe there was way more to red lyrium that we actually saw.

On the note of Meredith, I agree with the fact her going crazy might have been a mistake. She was an amazing antagonist otherwise, the crazyness tainted it. Props to the voice actress for an amazing "crazy" performance though, that one line "I will not be defeated" will stay with me forever.


As far as Red Templars go, I wish they aren't just crazy mooks to kill - basically agreeing with what the majority of the people in this thread are saying.

[The Elder King]

Hawke's eyes were red due to blood magic, not red lyrium.

[phunx]

hhh89 wrote...

Hawke's eyes were red due to blood magic, not red lyrium.

He is using blood magic yeah, but Merril's or Huon's eyes don't really glow like that. Only Meredith's.

[The Elder King]

phunx wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Hawke's eyes were red due to blood magic, not red lyrium.

He is using blood magic yeah, but Merril's or Huon's eyes don't really glow like that. Only Meredith's.

Merrill and Suon didn't appear in a CGI trailer. Bioware said that the red eyes were blood magic.