134 réponses à ce sujet

[Marvin_Arnold]

After DA2, I'm more afraid of insane friends, actually...

[phunx]

Oh ok. My bad then.

[MisterJB]

deuce985 wrote...
Well, naturally it's going to follow what Bioware did in DA2. That would be writing inconsistency if they didn't.

I am specifically referring to Meredith losing control of herself and attacking for no reason other than "Red Lyrium".
Suddenly, she is not just a woman who experienced first hand how dangerous mages can be and is doing her best to protect the people with the means she is given. Suddenly, her harshers measures are not due to her traumatic but because she is "insane".
Imagine if, rather than defeating Loghain, having him either join the Wardens or leave Ferelden in the hands of the PC, we discovered the reason he did what he did was because his favorte pantaloons were cursed.

If you want to nitpick it, sure, it sounds similar. Why stop there though? Let's tear apart the rest of the DA plot points and compare it to other games or books. Let's look at other games similar to DA and do the same. It's really reaching, IMO.

What is reaching? I am not accusing Bioware of being cliched. I am accusing Bioware of using a terrible plot device; insanity caused by indocrination/red lyrium; in order to justify having characters acting in whatever matter they need them to.
It's not a matter of lacking originality.

Cerberus is nothing like the Templars. That much is fact.

Cerberus doesn't need to be like the templars in order for them to be treated in the same manner which is what we would like to avoid.

You don't even know how the lyrium works at this point other than making people blind with power.

We might not know all the caracteristics of the red lyriums but we do know it provokes insanity which is the one thing that endangers the characterization of character as well as a deep, complex and realistics plotline.
Can it be done well? Sure, ME1 did it well but ME3 and DA2 used it horrible and we would like to avoid it happening again.

The Red Templars might not even have a prominent role in the game outside the region shown. It could be a very small splinter faction. That much in itself is different than Cerberus because they were your main enemy in ME3 between the Reapers.

Perhaps but I doubt it. The soldiers in the demo recognized them which implies they have fought with the Inquisition before and a user on a different thread claimed that one of the devs claims they are a "long term enemy". This implies they will occupy a large part of the game, much like Cerberus did in ME3.

I can guarantee how they're corrupted is different than ME3's Cerberus too because I highly doubt they have implants of Reaper devices in their bodies to turn them into mindless cyborgs(or lyrium implants lol). What are their motivations? I seriously doubt they have the same motivations as Cerberus considering they don't even come close to the same ideology. I could go on all day with this.

How are the differences in ideology relevant. The Red Templars have already attacked a village much like Cerberus attacked colonies. The Red Templars already have a plot device making them insane much like Cerberus.
The different between loony and forced enemies doing evil things for the evulz while ranting about Reapers is not that different from loony and forced enemies doing evil things for the evulz while ranting about mages.

Did people seriously find this surprising based on what's happened in DA? These splinter factions were inevitiable and I didn't find it shocking at all we would see something like this with the red lyrium. Especially since it was so vague in DA2 which I'm sure they'll do a much better job explaining in DA:I.

I've got no problems with fighting groups of Templars so long as they are given a good reasoning as to why they fight us and they have mage counterpats that we also must fight.
If, on the other hand, rather than having an intelligent enemy that fights us while challenging our views and also has very good reasons as to why s/he opposes us we have maddened templars fighting us for the evulz, we lose a lot of complexity that would improve the game's narrative.

It's the difference between fighting werewolves because they were cursed by the Elven Keeper and have since struggled with their animalistic nature while trying to remove the curse and fighting werewolves just because they're bloody werewolves.

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 septembre 2013 - 12:22 .

[The Elder King]

I doubt that the red templars will have the same, large role Cerberus had in ME3, regardless of they have a big role or not. 
I'd have preferred a single templar faction at war rapresenting both the good and bad side of them (as well as mages), but I'll be content with two templar factions. If the five rings concept art is of any indication of the factions in the game, this would be confirmed, since there was a templar ring and a red lyrium ring.

Modifié par hhh89, 02 septembre 2013 - 12:27 .

[MisterJB]

Will there be Red Mages? They don't rely on lyrium as much as the templars but it's still useful.
It seems only fair.

[cjones91]

MisterJB wrote...

Will there be Red Mages? They don't rely on lyrium as much as the templars but it's still useful.
It seems only fair.

Mages aren't addicted to lyrium.

[Spectre slayer]

The enemies in the game should be even more insane then they were in the previous games, as for why the Templars turned to red lyrium and where it's from will be clarified if not resolved fully in the game.

The Venatori? Cult isn't the main antagonist in the game since there's only one entity or person behind everything falling apart and though they are in direct opposition to the Inquisition they are probably just his agents or servants.

[Star fury]

MisterJB wrote...
I am specifically referring to Meredith losing control of herself and attacking for no reason other than "Red Lyrium".
Suddenly, she is not just a woman who experienced first hand how dangerous mages can be and is doing her best to protect the people with the means she is given. Suddenly, her harshers measures are not due to her traumatic but because she is "insane".
Imagine if, rather than defeating Loghain, having him either join the Wardens or leave Ferelden in the hands of the PC, we discovered the reason he did what he did was because his favorte pantaloons were cursed.

Bad and lazy writing. We also have Orsino, covering a mage-serial killer and resorting to blood magic.

MisterJB wrote...
Cerberus
doesn't need to be like the templars in order for them to be treated in
the same manner which is what we would like to avoid.

The big big difference between Cerberus and the Templars is that TIM's boys were always malicious. They were terrorists and conducted immoral experiments in ME1, assassination of admiral Kahoku is one of examples. Every person who played ME1 knows that. Yeah, ME2 had made them look somehat more sympathetic, bit overall during series Cerberus made 360 degrees turn. They're the same in ME3 as they were in ME1. 

[Ausstig]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Why would a sane group oppose the people trying to save the world?

Because you are new unknow group, why should they work with you?

They don't know you maybe they can do it better?

Also we had some people here (cjones91 claim that the Tear was natural. So some mages/supporters (or idots) may think it is normal and will sort it self out. 

Modifié par Ausstig, 02 septembre 2013 - 04:43 .

[Fredward]

+1

Meredith kinda made sense. Orsino was stupid. And all those crazy mages! Man. Just stahp it already.

[In Exile]

Sidney wrote...

I find it odd anyone could complain about enemies with "bad" motivations given that the main antagonists in DAO were functionally speaking zombies who just like to kill and have no will and Loghain's "reason" for fighting you borders on insane for how clueless it is - yes, we should be worried about some other country invading us when there is really no proof when we've got these freaky darkspawn rolling across the plains. Frankly, it was so bad I expected to find out the AD had been controlling him.

Speaking of being on the money... from what I read that was a cut plot from DA:O. Like the original way you killed the AD - by finding the magical GW weapon necessary to kill it. 

[Ziggeh]

Ausstig wrote...
Because you are new unknow group, why should they work with you?

They don't know you maybe they can do it better?

Those are reasons not to help you, not lay seige to your keeps in an attempt to stop you.

[The Six Path of Pain]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

+1

Meredith kinda made sense. Orsino was stupid. And all those crazy mages! Man. Just stahp it already.

Try playing DA2 and supporting the Templars, only to have Meredith turn on you for no reason /: End of the day both the Orsino and Meredith situations were stupid and didn't make sense.

[Ieldra]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...
+1

Meredith kinda made sense. Orsino was stupid. And all those crazy mages! Man. Just stahp it already.

Meredith made sense if you accept the plot element of red lyrium and that it drives you insane.

I question the narrative value of that plot element, or of any plot element that turns people insane so that you have to fight them. It cheapens characters. I heard Mike Laidlaw speak about how they want to show the human side of things, with no real gods driving the plots or defining morality. Red lyrium undermines that goal, it's a supernatural element that turns people into monsters, just like indoctrination. 

Compare that with Loghain. He was clearly at least somewhat obsessed and paranoid, but it was a human paranoia, not one induced from without, it didn't absolve him from responsibility and turn him into something "naturally evil". Also, it was rooted in his character and we could understand why he became what he was.

Meredith with a obsessive determination to protect Kirkwall from abominations, that was understandable. I don't agree with her in the least, but I could respect the stance. She also had presence, she was the kind of character you wish were on your side even as a pro-Mage Hawke, and who you'd regret to have to fight in the end, had she not turned insane. Red lyrium ruined all that. It destroyed a great character.

It is sometimes said that our heroes are measured by the kind of enemy they attract. You're a hero if your fight is the result of a real struggle between values, goals, methods. If you just kill insane enemies, you're not a hero. You're an exterminator.

[MisterJB]

POSSIBLY HUGE SPOILERS IN THIS POST! BEWARE!







Please note the dates on these two leaks.
Months before anyone knew about the Red Templars, someone managed to accurately name them. If this leak is real, it seems they will be the villains for the majority of the game.
(groan)

My only hope now is that they added the name "Red" in order to distinguish between them and the real Templars.

[Steelcan]

Let's have insane allies this time around.

[Face of Evil]

Well, we could add Cole.

[Steelcan]

Face of Evil wrote...

Well, we could add Cole.

I'm thinking bigger.

Let's get the Tevinters to help

[Cainhurst Crow]

MisterJB wrote...

POSSIBLY HUGE SPOILERS IN THIS POST! BEWARE!







Please note the dates on these two leaks.
Months before anyone knew about the Red Templars, someone managed to accurately name them. If this leak is real, it seems they will be the villains for the majority of the game.
(groan)

My only hope now is that they added the name "Red" in order to distinguish between them and the real Templars.

Mass shift seal of 100% legitness dudebro.

[Huntress]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Why would a sane group oppose the people trying to save the world?

MAKING money and making war have long been related activities.
Getting rich by controlling resources in war is common practice, soldiers loot and arms manufacturers turn a profit is hardly new.
Prolonged internal violence in countries with rich natural resources but corrupt or weak governments are the best cover for the extraction and smuggling of resources and armies, give the means to control workers, the chance to make even more money, by smuggling goods in and out of war zones and then charging high prices.

Remember the conflict in DAO? and how Loghain sold elves? good money i tell yu!

[MisterJB]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Mass shift seal of 100% legitness dudebro.

We've only heard the name "Red Templars" two days ago.
Those posts are from February and May. How do you explain that?

One thing is to take "leaks" such as this with a grain of salt. Another entirely different is to dismiss it offhand even if there is evidence they're accurate because of the source or because we can't imagine Bioware's ultimate plan being "The Villain wants to become the Maker."
Which, coincidentely, is also what the villain from the comics books wanted.

[Face of Evil]

Well, Loghain did need the money, as the civil war was bleeding him dry.

[The Elder King]

Yeah, I noticed the dates (I preferred to not post in the other thread).
My concern is that there isn't a direct link to the 'leak'. Plus, it seems strange that nobody noticed until now the 'leak'. The first is dates six months ago.
If true, it'd certainly be disappointed both because of the main enemy and the plot. As for now, I still think is fake.

[Cainhurst Crow]

MisterJB wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Mass shift seal of 100% legitness dudebro.

We've only heard the name "Red Templars" two days ago.
Those posts are from February and May. How do you explain that?

One thing is to take "leaks" such as this with a grain of salt. Another entirely different is to dismiss it offhand even if there is evidence they're accurate because of the source or because we can't imagine Bioware's ultimate plan being "The Villain wants to become the Maker."
Which, coincidentely, is also what the villain from the comics books wanted.

The same way mass shift knew one of the dlcs would be called citadel. Blind luck and using past material (comic book) to make a vauge, semi-believable statement and have everyone else do the work f proving it true while providing no evidence itself.