128 réponses à ce sujet

[Northern Sun]

So far, the only real design decision I'm not a fan of is removing after-combat healing and limiting healing potions. However, having a mage Inquisitor/companion who can heal would in theory solve this, especially since mana seems to regenerate. Since such an easy workaround would defeat the spirit of "thinking about the adventure" as Laidlaw put it in the PAX demo, I can only surmise they have some way of limiting magical healing to.

What do you think Bioware's solution will be to this? The only real one I can think of is limiting healing to within combat, which I think would create the perverse logic of actively seeking low-level mobs so you can heal as much as possible before it's over.

[Bekkael]

I'm incredibly disappointed by their decision not to have health regen. The few games I've played with that mechanic didn't make me "think of the journey" or "be aware and careful of my resources". Not at all. All it added was pointless extra trips to inns/camp to "rest" for recovering health. What the heck is the point of that? It just adds an extra chore every few battles where you essentially have to stop your adventuring and take a forced break for health recovery. It's a time waster that adds nothing, and actually stops me from what I like, which is exploring areas and completing quests.

Dragon's Dogma had that for the first half of my game, and it just annoyed the crap out of me. <_< If people like this option, I don't know why they can't tie that mechanic to a higher difficulty. Let casual players regen health, and anything above casual can add in the extra busy work that no health regen is going to inevitably require.

It feels like nothing more than catering to those older PC RPG players where everything was painful and grindy. Ugh. No thanks!

Also, if they take away how much my healer mage can heal the health of my party, then they will have also effectively raped an entire mage specialization and that is NOT cool. Don't do it, BioWare!!!

[Volourn]

"The few games I've played with that mechanic"

You need to play more games. Many games don't use health regen. In fact, traditonally, RPGs don't.

Health regen is dumb.


That said, there'll be plenty of ways to heal yourself. Don't worry be happy.

[Bekkael]

Volourn wrote...

"The few games I've played with that mechanic"

You need to play more games. Many games don't use health regen. In fact, traditonally, RPGs don't.

Health regen is dumb.


That said, there'll be plenty of ways to heal yourself. Don't worry be happy.

That's your opinion. Not everyone will share it.

I've played a good many games without it. As I said, it's fine for people who want it, but why foist it on ALL players when the past many BioWare games had health regen? Make it a difficulty option, not a blanket game mechanic for everyone.

In Morrowind, merchants had a very limited amount of gold which only refilled every 24-48 hours (can't remember the exact amount of time) and trying to sell your loot was tedious, as you would have to wait, over and over again for the gold to refill. I consider that the same type of time-wasting mechanic as no health regen, (if I remember correctly, Morrowind also had no health regen...or maybe I have it confused with the painful combat). What exactly is the point of such things?

Neither Oblivion or Skyrim kept those features to that extreme. It seems to me that BioWare is taking a step backwards from what their games have offered in the past.

Now, if a healer mage is still able to effectively heal the party as in past games, then I have no objection. But if they also strip that away just to force me to this new way (for DA games) of having to play, then I just can't understand why that is necessary. Not everyone wants the old school style of RPG play.

[TeamLexana]

I'm worried about because I think it gonna get really old really fast. ESPECIALLY if there is no Spirit Healer spec again, or you know no heal spell at ALL ala Merril in DA2. Speaking of, the only reason that I didn't use her more was because she had no heal option. I'm not saying that is all a mage is good for by any means, but it is still a pretty big deal when they flat out CAN't do it.

[Bekkael]

TeamLexana wrote...

I'm worried about because I think it gonna get really old really fast. ESPECIALLY if there is no Spirit Healer spec again, or you know no heal spell at ALL ala Merril in DA2. Speaking of, the only reason that I didn't use her more was because she had no heal option. I'm not saying that is all a mage is good for by any means, but it is still a pretty big deal when they flat out CAN't do it.

I agree. Which is why it seems it will make or break it (for me) depending on whether they gimp mage healers or let them be. As long I can have at least 1 effective healing mage (whether my character or one of the other mages), then that's fine with me.

[mupp3tz]

I also feel like they got quite a bit of inspiration from Dragon's Dogma. The no level scaling enemies and having to be extra sure that you have enough equipment before heading out of town and choosing your battles wisely were key in that game. Also some of the way that the spells look remind me of it. Also a bit of Bethesda with the map interface.

Agree with the other poster that, although it was a cool concept, the impatient gamer in me just made it oftentimes frustrating with the constant going back and forth to town.

For "How will Bioware avoid just using healers as work around?" question.. probably the spell timer will be longer, regen won't be that quick, etc. forcing you to use Lyrium potions.

Modifié par M U P P 3 T Z, 01 septembre 2013 - 11:27 .

[Zevais]

Volourn wrote...

Health regen is dumb.

That is your OPINION. I do not shareit; many others in the forum do not either. You have your reasons, and we have ours. Stop acting superior.

[Cimeas]

They should add a slider for health regen.

[TeamLexana]

I just know the first few times the flow of gameplay is broken because I have to go back to the keep to heal and/or get more potions, I am gonna be annoyed. The first time I spend like 20 minutes or more walking around circles trying to find some cave or whatever and finally find it but alas, I can't get near it because there are bandits parked in the way and we can't fight them because our health got wrecked along the way, when I was I trying to find this place, so now I have to go all the way back to the keep and start over? Seriously? I'd be pretty mad about that.

And if the above scenerios happen repeteadly, I am gonna RAGE.

[Cimeas]

I honestly play games to be free of frustration. Like when I'm playing GTA I will always just use cheats to heal (health does not regeneration in GTA) because i cannot be bothered to go back to a hot dog stand everytime I lose health.

[Bekkael]

TeamLexana wrote...

I just know the first few times the flow of gameplay is broken because I have to go back to the keep to heal and/or get more potions, I am gonna be annoyed. The first time I spend like 20 minutes or more walking around circles trying to find some cave or whatever and finally find it but alas, I can't get near it because there are bandits parked in the way and we can't fight them because our health got wrecked along the way, when I was I trying to find this place, so now I have to go all the way back to the keep and start over? Seriously? I'd be pretty mad about that.

And if the above scenerios happen repeteadly, I am gonna RAGE.

Or maybe ragequit in my case. That stuff was really tedious in older TES games, and Bethesda modified it or dropped it completely. I just really can't comprehend why BioWare would do this, it sucked in Dragon's Dogma. I have never played a BioWare game that didn't have health regen. Seriously, what's the point?

The devs can't tell me wolf encounters will or will not be more important to me now based on this mechanic. All this does is punish you if you happen to engage in trash fights before you hit a bigger battle.

DEAR MR. LAIDLAW: THIS SOUNDS FRUSTRATING, NOT FUN. Please reconsider making this optional.

[DarthLaxian]

Bekkael wrote...

I'm incredibly disappointed by their decision not to have health regen. The few games I've played with that mechanic didn't make me "think of the journey" or "be aware and careful of my resources". Not at all. All it added was pointless extra trips to inns/camp to "rest" for recovering health. What the heck is the point of that? It just adds an extra chore every few battles where you essentially have to stop your adventuring and take a forced break for health recovery. It's a time waster that adds nothing, and actually stops me from what I like, which is exploring areas and completing quests.

Dragon's Dogma had that for the first half of my game, and it just annoyed the crap out of me. <_< If people like this option, I don't know why they can't tie that mechanic to a higher difficulty. Let casual players regen health, and anything above casual can add in the extra busy work that no health regen is going to inevitably require.

It feels like nothing more than catering to those older PC RPG players where everything was painful and grindy. Ugh. No thanks!

Also, if they take away how much my healer mage can heal the health of my party, then they will have also effectively raped an entire mage specialization and that is NOT cool. Don't do it, BioWare!!!

i can agree with that 100% - i hate it when a developer decides to catapult games back to the mid 90's or something like that, in order to make them "better" (they don't get better with that, it just makes them more tedious and i hate that, it's like driving the best race-car ever but doing so while constantly having one foot on the break and drilling a hole into the gas-tank in order to have to put fuel into the car more often...strange kind of thinking as IMHO the driving is the fun part, not the fueling, preparing (in DA it is the fighting, exploring and talking to characters that is fun, not the grinding and farming for potions etc. - it is not an MMO and trying to bolt on such stupid mechanics (which are left over from the stone age of computer-gaming IMHO) is a bad idea that will never work out well!)

if they add something like "healing only in combat" (or something similar) then i will have to re-think getting this game, because i play for story, fun etc. and not for tedious grinding and "work" - i already have a job (well, i go to school for my vocational-training), thank you very much!

as for exploring - well, i like the idea (but without level scalling, i believe i will be frustrated very often with things like: hey, a dragon...a dragon guarding a treasure...attack - wait a minute, this dragon is lvl 25...i am level 10...i will have to come back later (and yes: I HATE THAT!) - )

greetings LAX
ps: those examples and a few others (like "iconic-look" which is the dumbest idea ever IMHO (i don't want my companions to add ridiculous (like say chantry) symbols etc. to perfectly good armor or dye things that were red green, just because they don't like red (they should be thankfull i am giving them armor at all (look up how much an actual combat-armor was worth in the middle ages - compared to what a normal person earned in a year!!!)) make me skeptical for DA:I...i mean a lot of stuff was really neat, but some other stuff is either "fixing what is not broken" (thus un-needed IMHO - like health-regeneration) or adding things no one really needs IMHO (mounts for example - unless there is mounted combat...otherwise it is too much WOW-Style with transport only (a fast travel-system would have been easier to implement and would save a lot of time, too)) and thus, well, i am not yet convinced that they are doing it "right"...

[upsettingshorts]

Well, at least the complaints will be new.

Hard to see how the "they're just dumbing it down for the masses!" crowd will fit this change into their narrative.

[andar91]

This is such a big question. Somebody shoot a tweet at Laidlaw and see if he responds to it lol. I don't have twitter.

I do think there are ways around this. Maybe it will be like Dragon's Dogma where you can only be healed up to a point. Maybe healing magic can only heal to a certain point (HP-wise, I mean). Maybe the Heal spell has a 5 minute cooldown timer. Who knows?

To address Bekkael's points about not liking the system:

I think that NOT doubling back every 5 minutes to go get more potions and whatnot is sort of the point. The idea is that you have to be a little more careful with your resources; accordingly, I sort of doubt that the damage from enemies will be as punishing as it was in DA2, depending on difficulty level, of course. So I guess what I'm saying is that you will probably be able to play so that you DON'T have to double back if you play smart.

Not everybody will like this, of course, and I think that's totally fair. I think the deciding factor will be what they do with the difficulty levels and healing capabilities (especially magic).

[Bekkael]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Well, at least the complaints will be new.

Hard to see how the "they're just dumbing it down for the masses!" crowd will fit this change into their narrative.

Indeed. They seem to have taken those kind of critcisms too much to heart and put this old dinosaur of "no health regen" in, in the hopes of forcing it to be more tactical. It's not tactical, it's tedious. *sigh*

[Bekkael]

andar91 wrote...

This is such a big question. Somebody shoot a tweet at Laidlaw and see if he responds to it lol. I don't have twitter.

I do think there are ways around this. Maybe it will be like Dragon's Dogma where you can only be healed up to a point. Maybe healing magic can only heal to a certain point (HP-wise, I mean). Maybe the Heal spell has a 5 minute cooldown timer. Who knows?

To address Bekkael's points about not liking the system:

I think that NOT doubling back every 5 minutes to go get more potions and whatnot is sort of the point. The idea is that you have to be a little more careful with your resources; accordingly, I sort of doubt that the damage from enemies will be as punishing as it was in DA2, depending on difficulty level, of course. So I guess what I'm saying is that you will probably be able to play so that you DON'T have to double back if you play smart.

Not everybody will like this, of course, and I think that's totally fair. I think the deciding factor will be what they do with the difficulty levels and healing capabilities (especially magic).

I'm a "prepare for every eventuality" kind of player though. So the end result for me WILL be going to heal at a camp constantly, just as I did in Dragon's Dogma. That's where the tedium comes in. I will not take a chance that my party might not win a fight became I came less than 100% prepared. I won't do it, that isn't how I play. Therefore to me, this just means pointless extra work which adds nothing to my game experience.

Also, if there's a wolf pack standing off to the side of the path, I want to kill it. I don't pick my battles; if they are in the game I do them all. I'm the hero, dammit.

[ev76]

I am preparing for this game to be a lot longer than dragons dogma, if bioware stays true to their storytelling. The thing about dragons dogma was that you did do a lot of walking back and forth, that also took a lot of the play hours as opposed to playing story hours (hope that makes sense). This back and forth walking was to regenerate at towns, walking around dangerous foes (which is cool) but past bioware games spent a lot of the time playing through the story.
Anyway if they can still get the amount of story in with this new system and broader world I'm cool with it. I guess I will have over 100 hours of play time lol.

[TeamLexana]

Are the potions at the keep going to be limited? That makes it worse, doesn't it? You could be severally punished for exploring because now its possible that you have NO POTIONS AT ALL for the story mission that you NEED in order to progress further and get more xp so that you can hit up the dungeons that were scaled too high when first discovering them.

Thats sounds tedius as hell. NO LIKE.

[Bekkael]

ev76 wrote...

I am preparing for this game to be a lot longer than dragons dogma, if bioware stays true to their storytelling. The thing about dragons dogma was that you did do a lot of walking back and forth, that also took a lot of the play hours as opposed to playing story hours (hope that makes sense). This back and forth walking was to regenerate at towns, walking around dangerous foes (which is cool) but past bioware games spent a lot of the time playing through the story.
Anyway if they can still get the amount of story in with this new system and broader world I'm cool with it. I guess I will have over 100 hours of play time lol.

I've clocked way over 100 hours played in Dragon's Dogma currently and I'm only now in post-game (haven't fully completed one playthrough yet). I never did as much walking around Gransys as people who got this game at release, as I got it much later (with the eternal ferrystone which allows me to fast travel without restriction). I also have health regen as one of my attributes. Without it, the game just aggravates me.

Also, the strength and the fun (to me) of Dragon's Dogma is the combat, levelling and different classes you can switch to. To me, it has absolutely NOTHING in common with BioWare games, which shine with their stories and characters. I like elements of DD, but to me it cannot hold a candle to any BioWare game.

Which is why I'm so concerned about no health regen in DAI since I first heard of it. DA is my favorite game franchise of all time...

[cJohnOne]

I don't know what it's going to be like but I would definitely get the game and at least play on casual or story mode. The game isn't just combat. It's companions, story, exploration, supplies etc. Where else will you fight with a true party.

In the video they really only had to use one heal potion for Cassandra and that was a boss fight which I assume will be more difficult for me to do than what was shown. Also Vivienne isn't you healer mage that's the other fellow I think Dorian. At least that's what I assume.

[ev76]

Lol,@Bekkael I bought the first incarnation of dragons dogma. Never used ferry stones. Like you I like the story telling in bioware games. That whole no regen and limitations on health potions I see bioware will be implementing, I really hope is for game play/story purposes and not just to Add hours into the game, due to lack of story.
In all fairness I don't think that will be the case.

[Bekkael]

Mr. Laidlaw says there will be more information coming in the future.

https://twitter.com/...340488171507712

[Volourn]

"Stop acting superior"

I'm not acting.

[Bekkael]

ev76 wrote...

Lol,@Bekkael I bought the first incarnation of dragons dogma. Never used ferry stones.

How did you stand it? If I had bought it at release without the extras they added in later, I would likely have never given it a chance and learned what a great game it was. No fast travel was a glaring fault for me.

Like you I like the story telling in bioware games. That whole no regen and limitations on health potions I see bioware will be implementing, I really hope is for game play/story purposes and not just to Add hours into the game, due to lack of story.
In all fairness I don't think that will be the case.

Nor do I. I know I will love the game, as I loved both DA:O and DA2. I'm just scared of this unexpected fly in the gameplay ointment.