128 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Mana regens. Are you under the impression that mages won't have healing spells?

[devSin]

I'm under the impression that Mike said we're not going to be carrying around stacks of potions, further limiting access to healing.

What would be the point of that restriction (in addition to having no passive health regeneration) if mages can simply heal everyone with a few spells?

Modifié par devSin, 02 septembre 2013 - 05:50 .

[Bekkael]

^ That's my big concern about mages.

[Maria Caliban]

devSin wrote...

I'm under the impression that Mike said we're not going to be carrying around stacks of potions, further limiting access to healing.

It's only limited if enemies don't drop potions, you can't craft potions in the field, and you can't find potions in chests.

All we know is that we can't carry tons of them. Not that we won't have access to them.

What would be the point of that restriction (in addition to having no passive health regeneration) if mages can simply heal everyone with a few spells?

To make healing magic more useful and to satisfy those who hated DA2's instant healing.

Almost every announcement they've made has been aimed at addressing the 'concerns' people had about DA 2.

[Taleroth]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Almost every announcement they've made has been aimed at addressing the 'concerns' people had about DA 2.

Now to wait for the announcement that the game won't make me work for the people I've been trying to kill.

[devSin]

They clearly want it to be a meaningful decision to continue adventuring (as opposed to returning to base or finding a safe place to camp), and plentiful healing through magic doesn't seem at all conducive to that. Perhaps there will be a healing spell with a massive cooldown, making it impractical to spam. Or perhaps it could be something that instead acts as damage mitigation during a fight.

But I would say the argument against the type of healing you seem to be thinking of is far stronger than any case can be made for it.

Maria Caliban wrote...

Almost every announcement they've made has been aimed at addressing the 'concerns' people had about DA 2.

Except it has nothing to do with DA2? This was a mechanic that began with Origins, so I'm not sure why you would equate this change as addressing some concern people had with the sequel.

They've said why they're doing it, and if you take them at their word, "free" healing seems to run completely counter to their goal.

Modifié par devSin, 02 septembre 2013 - 05:54 .

[Maria Caliban]

Your argument is based on marketing. 'Healing will be difficult in DA:I' is about as meaningful as 'Budlight will make sexy blondes like you.'

That last time a BioWare game had difficult healing was BG 1, and you could still spam rest if you wanted to.

devSin wrote...
Except it has nothing to do with DA2?

People complained about the healing regenerating in DA 2. Health regeneration is suddenly gone in DA:I, even though it was in DA:O.

But you're right, people's reaction to DA 2 had nothing to do with it.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 02 septembre 2013 - 05:56 .

[devSin]

I don't think I would say "difficult"; meaningful does not mean it will be hard to do.

They said you could make camp or return to base to heal—and that is the choice they want to emphasize, whether you press on or instead make time to dress your wounds (so I'd guess you'd have to backtrack to the nearest stronghold, or utilize whatever this "camp" mechanic turns out to be).

If you can just heal completely with almost no effort in the field, then it seems to be a worthless choice—of course you just continue on, because everybody is at full health, and they will be after the next fight too.

Modifié par devSin, 02 septembre 2013 - 06:00 .

[Maria Caliban]

I guess we'll just have to see.

[Wompoo]

Bekkael wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Well, at least the complaints will be new.

Hard to see how the "they're just dumbing it down for the masses!" crowd will fit this change into their narrative.

Indeed. They seem to have taken those kind of critcisms too much to heart and put this old dinosaur of "no health regen" in, in the hopes of forcing it to be more tactical. It's not tactical, it's tedious. *sigh*

In your opinion only, it isn't old nor is it tedious. Nor do I think you have played to many games at all, that didn't have regen. Also Beth games have gone to hell in a paper canoe since Morrowind (that's my opinion). 

I see multiple threads on the same thing with the same people in each one crying foul and lobbying for the return of a mechanic you don't even know is indeed needed in the game... or a mechanic that may cause balancing issues later in the game when skills, abilities, armour, or group composition or when stats all come into play. I think you will find most people will be happy and many more will just adapt to the game mechanics, which you seem unable or unwilling to do.

[MakutaDax]

Bekkael wrote...

andar91 wrote...

This is such a big question. Somebody shoot a tweet at Laidlaw and see if he responds to it lol. I don't have twitter.

I do think there are ways around this. Maybe it will be like Dragon's Dogma where you can only be healed up to a point. Maybe healing magic can only heal to a certain point (HP-wise, I mean). Maybe the Heal spell has a 5 minute cooldown timer. Who knows?

To address Bekkael's points about not liking the system:

I think that NOT doubling back every 5 minutes to go get more potions and whatnot is sort of the point. The idea is that you have to be a little more careful with your resources; accordingly, I sort of doubt that the damage from enemies will be as punishing as it was in DA2, depending on difficulty level, of course. So I guess what I'm saying is that you will probably be able to play so that you DON'T have to double back if you play smart.

Not everybody will like this, of course, and I think that's totally fair. I think the deciding factor will be what they do with the difficulty levels and healing capabilities (especially magic).

I'm a "prepare for every eventuality" kind of player though. So the end result for me WILL be going to heal at a camp constantly, just as I did in Dragon's Dogma. That's where the tedium comes in. I will not take a chance that my party might not win a fight became I came less than 100% prepared. I won't do it, that isn't how I play. Therefore to me, this just means pointless extra work which adds nothing to my game experience.

Also, if there's a wolf pack standing off to the side of the path, I want to kill it. I don't pick my battles; if they are in the game I do them all. I'm the hero, dammit.

Besides killing everything for the joy of the kill or in order to prove your heroic nature, I also do it for the XP. I need that xp tp level up and become even more of a bada** and to make me have to literally consider ignoring a three-member wolf pack when I can launch fireballs and create ice traps... That's just silly. My level of bada** just went down and on top of that, I'm actively considering walking away from xp in a game where leveling up can take a while as it is. That sucks.

[Sir Caradoc]

Now i'm pleasantly surprised, Having no automatic health regen leads to more tactical fights because player can't just cruise through every fight taking heavy damage and spamming health potions like crazy. This also means that healing potions etc become more meaningfull items once again..

And i'm sure there will be different ways to heal your party. Just few ideas:

-resting inns or outdoors. Naturally resting outdoors is never as effective as in inns.
-traditional classic healing spells
-blood magic
-potions, repair kits etc
-food / drinks
-magical items with healing spells or even with a slow regen ability
-perks? Maybe a warrior class could unlock a high level ability which would allow him to gain some of the lost health back after combat or something. It would still force him to avoid damage, but he could gain some of it back later due to his massive stamina. Or a templar could learn how to heal his wounds through prayer or something.
-Pure lyrium in the fade
-Staves
-Runes of healing/life force which could be forged into weapon and each strike could suck the life force away from the enemy.

[DarthLaxian]

and that's why i'd call tedious...seriously:

why do people (developers, too) have the drive to fix what is not broken (nor even damaged!)?

greetings LAX

[RedWulfi]

Rather than charging in and killing **** without using tactics, try thinking about how you are going to handle the fight. It's the reason they did that. I dunno about you but in past games I never used anyone but my own character. This is to encourage people to use abilities from your party members to AVOID taking damage.

[pseudhn]

I think this is a refreshing change from the rpgs of late - and what many people here are forgetting, is the fact that no health regen in and/or outside combat isnt't just a drop-in replacement for the standard "modern" way. It will require different encounter design and also changes to the math revolving around combat/encounters - this is something I recall Allan talking about in one of the threads.

People fearing added tedium: I'm pretty sure the creation school has already been hinted at in some of the screens/concepts we've seen - it would be pretty strange to not have it, considering it's been in the last two DA games. Also, I'm pretty sure this decision to not have the regen relates to the whole 'preparation is key' thing that's been thrown around in the presentations - this will probably mean that there'll be emphasis on mitigating damage the party takes via defensive buffs/spells. Also: crowd control spells and abilities - we've already seen some of that in the Pax presentation

.. I wouldn't start panicing just yet.

Modifié par pseudhn, 02 septembre 2013 - 10:15 .

[cJohnOne]

I must enjoy tedium because I like going to Inns to rest up. I'm not sure how in would work in such large areas but that I trust BioWare knows what they are doing.

[TeamLexana]

I think a fair concern when it comes to healing mages and a healing mage inquistor is that isn't balanced well at all with the classes and peeps will cry about it snd will get nerfed for the sake of nerfing it - no matter how limited the mages healing ability may or may not be on release. People are kinda petty that way.

Playing the ME3 multiplayer taught me that just because some dude makes a youtube and says OP, suddenly everyone is crying OP. Even peeps that were TERRIBLE at the game and would cry OP in the lobby and try to "prove" it in game and be like SEE! I KILLZ A LOT! and I'd be like yeah but I had to pick you up five times already and its only wave two, lolol.

Nerf criers aside, isn't at least partionly a fair argument? How is it fun at all to play a warrior or a rogue that has no way to heal themselves while a mage can? Slam a huge cooldown on it and it just further adds to the tedium of having to sit and wait and stare at the screen in disgust because you can't progress to the next room in the dungeon until everyone is at least "mostly" healed because being your first playthrough - you never know what is that next room.

[Zevais]

cJohnOne wrote...

I must enjoy tedium because I like going to Inns to rest up. I'm not sure how in would work in such large areas but that I trust BioWare knows what they are doing.

I hate Inns... with a passion. I've quit games in demo because it seemed like I was going to an Inn after every battle... spending money I could have better used elsewhere. I'd rather spend the gold drinking tavern ale that serves no purpose besides a story gimmic than tedious healing.

[Bekkael]

Wompoo wrote...

Bekkael wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Well, at least the complaints will be new.

Hard to see how the "they're just dumbing it down for the masses!" crowd will fit this change into their narrative.

Indeed. They seem to have taken those kind of critcisms too much to heart and put this old dinosaur of "no health regen" in, in the hopes of forcing it to be more tactical. It's not tactical, it's tedious. *sigh*

In your opinion only, it isn't old nor is it tedious. Nor do I think you have played to many games at all, that didn't have regen. Also Beth games have gone to hell in a paper canoe since Morrowind (that's my opinion). 

I see multiple threads on the same thing with the same people in each one crying foul and lobbying for the return of a mechanic you don't even know is indeed needed in the game... or a mechanic that may cause balancing issues later in the game when skills, abilities, armour, or group composition or when stats all come into play. I think you will find most people will be happy and many more will just adapt to the game mechanics, which you seem unable or unwilling to do.

Am I not allowed to have an opinion and express it accordingly?  I assure you I am not a critical person and seldom complain about things in BioWare games (ME3 ending being the exception lol), as overall I love playing them so much I happily overlook anything I might find to be a minor irritation.

I never found fault with DA2 other than to notice the area reuse, but even that was minor because the game gave me so much pleasure. The same with DA:O; it was a delight, and anything that was a minor annoyance to me was happily accepted as part of the overall package.

I am posting in several threads dealing with this topic because I want to let the devs know that this is a concern for some of us. I am not being mean or ugly, but just sharing my thoughts on this subject as that is what these boards are for: expressing opinions and discussing them.

I have great respect for the DA devs, and I'm sure that regardless of what they decide to put in the final game, I will still play it and either completely or mostly enjoy it because making wonderful games is just what they do. Which is why they have been and will remain my favorite game company.

[Wulfram]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Well, at least the complaints will be new.

Hard to see how the "they're just dumbing it down for the masses!" crowd will fit this change into their narrative.

It appeases some of the "we want the game to be more strategic" crowd without actually adding any more strategy.  Which means they don't actually need to add any more actual strategy and risk alienating the action crowd.  It also gives them an excuse for trash fights.

Though I don't think DA2 was significantly more dumbed down than DAO.  Aside from lack of friendly fire.  But generally Origins combat was broken enough to negate the need for tactics.

Modifié par Wulfram, 02 septembre 2013 - 08:00 .

[Airell]

There will be a threshold that you will heal back to after combat. This threshold will change at different difficulties Mark Darrah

[Bekkael]

Airell wrote...

There will be a threshold that you will heal back to after combat. This threshold will change at different difficulties Mark Darrah

And anything beyond the threshold will otherwise require a potion or resting, I assume. I can live with that.

[cJohnOne]

Airell wrote...

There will be a threshold that you will heal back to after combat. This threshold will change at different difficulties Mark Darrah

But that means you won't get the "real" game until higher difficulties.  And it makes easy easier.   I wanted normal to be harder.  Oh well.

[eye basher]

So now i have to carry the one class i don't like just so i can heal myself i hate mages they slow me down.

[DarthLaxian]

eye basher wrote...

So now i have to carry the one class i don't like just so i can heal myself i hate mages they slow me down.

^^
funny, for me it is the other way round (but a mage only party does not
work either - you can't open locks and without Arcane-Warrior, you
can't tank), i would love not to be more or less forced to take all
those warriors and rogues along ^^

as for the non health-regeneration:

even with Mark Darrah saying that a portion does heal back, that still means that (if healing by either drinking potions (if you have enough - if not: take more next time or look if you have the ingredients to make some - if they can be made in the field) or using your mage as a health-battery) after a fight, i will most likely have to pause (i hate going into combat or running around a corner/opening a door with less then full health, even more if i don't know what enemies i might run into next), while doing the healing...argh, i still hate it (and i will probably hate it, if it stays this way...even more as i dislike them forcing it on us (did they do a poll or really ask, if we wanted this mechanic?)...

this is NOT "...listening to our fans" - no, by doing that, you guys show that you don't (at least if you don't ask before you act - yes, there are some people that like the mechanic, granted (!), but what about those that don't?)

greetings LAX