274 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Inquisitor Recon wrote...

daveliam wrote...
You AGAIN did not address my question.  Where is the equity in the options?  I want AN option.  I would like to have a choice.  Did I have a choice in LI's in DA: O as a gay male?  That is my question to you.

Well yes, you aren't required to even have a romance. And there are brothers which cater to everybody, even those with a passion for nugs, who I will not judge.

I was waiting for you to tie in bestiality with bi and homosexuality.

You and your fellows tend to do that.

Glad, I'm not the only on who caught that. 

[wolfhowwl]

CrustyBot wrote...

Post I am copy pasting from somewhere because I feel it is relevant (watch nobody read it and continue with back and forth):

My bigger concern is that which I worry about in all Bioware (and most other game writing) games: is this putting in a character because the writers wanted a diverse cast, or does the character actually tie in to the feel and themes of the game. Note I didn't say 'plot' - it's easy to add trivial plot points that bring in extraneous characters, there are plenty of characters in all media that are vital to the work despite having little direct connection to the plot. Themes and feel mean a lot more - and are woefully underthought in most game writing.

That doesn't mean the character's transexuality has to have thematic relevance - that can be part of the characterisation that lifts it from a 'bottle of themes' to an actual character (though given the obliviousness of even Bioware's most prominent female writers to the fact that she isn't just writing - but PROMOTING DA2 ON THE BASIS OF - the ****/mother/virgin characterisation uber-cliche, I am skeptical that Bioware can actually deliver on characterisation beyond dating-sim wish-fulfillment. But actually irks me with Bioware's attempts at diversity and sex isn't the diversity itself. That's a good thing, all things considered. But there's never any sign in Bioware games that anyone has sat back and thought 'how does this character contribute to the game's themes and feel?' 'Could we tell this same story, with the same themes without this character?' 'Are we trivialising the aim of diversity by inserting theses characters as unnecessary padding.'

Even in a sprawling game like FO1 and Deus Ex, there are very few (if any) characters without thematic significance (same with VtMB) - noit all are info dums of philosoraptory (very few are), but they all build the world, feel and themes in SOME way. None of them are merely padding - characters with no other purpose than to be characters in the game.

The same reasoning applies to what character actions you focus on. You don't focus on the characters brushing their teeth before going to bed, do you? Even though you could probably insert some teeth-brushing related plot. You don't do it because it is utterly unrelated to the games' themes and feel as a whole. 9 times out of 10, when a game introduces sex or romance, the same problem arises. That's why they're exploitational dating sims, not interesting character interaction.

As a guy who was actively bi prior to marriage, I have no problem with including gay, bi or transgender characters. But in Bioware's case, crying 'trans/homophobia' is deliberately disiningenius. The problem is that times and time again, Bioware has inserted characters purely for the sake of diversity, with no thought as to how those characters will fit the theme and feel of their games. The characters become padding - unnecessary and irritating padding, serving only as wish fulfilment for the kind of people who couldn't pick up even a good pulp book, let alone literature - and that's not an educational snobbishness: there's no shortage of easy to read/watch literature.

That trivialises the very diversity Bioware wants to be lauded for. What worse way of using diverse characters than turning them into sex-fetish freakshows that could have been dropped without losing anything of substance. Can you imagine Silent Hill 2 without the guy's wife? Can you imagine KoTOR2 working (on the restoration mod version) without Bao-dur as a foil to the Exile as they are both being brought full circle, to the point where Bao-dur eventually reaches a grim determination that actually what they did the first time WAS necessary, as he rebuilds the device that devastated the planet the first time around (leaving the Exile to fact e the same choice)? As an example of a minor NPC, can you imagine PS:T without Ingriss, the impoverished hive dwellers, the diseased members of the lower ward and the sensates as slaves to their desires...building a theme and setting where everyone - EVERYONE - is trapped in one way or another; just like the TNO when it starts to dawn that he can't just escape out and start again. That like Hamlet (and there's a lot of Hamlet in the TNO's arc), all he can do is move beyond the naivity of thinking that he can achieve some higher justicet - that like when Hamlet responds to Horatio pointing out the obvious (that it's a trap, from which Hamlet will have no chance of escaping), he finally realises that what really matters now isn't being the romantic hero - it's the long-overdue step of finally doing what needs to be done.

There's no reason why this couldn't be done with diverse sexualities. But Bioware has never shown any interest in doing so.

Is this from that appalingly ignorant transphobic, cryptopatriarchal, ciscentered hate site known as the RPG Codex?

[Inquisitor Recon]

sandalisthemaker wrote...
I was waiting for you to tie in bestiality with bi and homosexuality.

You and your fellows tend to do that.

You can twist my words however you wish, yet I have no grudge against the many people who have a passion for nugs.

[daveliam]

Inquisitor Recon wrote...

daveliam wrote...
You AGAIN did not address my question.  Where is the equity in the options?  I want AN option.  I would like to have a choice.  Did I have a choice in LI's in DA: O as a gay male?  That is my question to you.

Well yes, you aren't required to even have a romance. And there are brothers which cater to everybody, even those with a passion for nugs, who I will not judge.

So this is what you've presented to me so far:

1.)  Buy a gaming computer so I can change the game through a mod
2.)  Have a straight romance instead of a gay one
3.)  Have no romance at all

Seriously?!?  Those are your answers to my question:  You stated that DA: O was fair in how they provided options in the romances and I want to know what options I had as a gay male outside of Zevran who wanted to access the romance content.

Now, let's cut to the chase.  You CAN'T answer this question because there WERE no options for gay males.  There was a single LI and I had to either take him or leave him in a game where straight players had an option.  You can't answer my question because it completely negates your argument.

[DarthLaxian]

Secretlyapotato wrote...

I don't care how realistic it is, I just wanna set my character up with whomever I want.

agreed - it can be easily head-canoned (at least for me), too

how? - well, i would say i am straight, but there are certain qualities of either gender if find appealing and i wouldn't put it past myself if i was working with someone for some time (and had to survive live and death situations) and would find a sympathetic ear when i need it (and help - even if it involved something the other person might not normally do (personal quests!) and/or is very hard to do) that i could develop some feelings for another man (i don't know if i would act on something like those, as i said, i prever girls/women and i would probably be out of my depths with a man)...but there you have it, that's my head canon for explaining what people call "player-sexual"...it works well for me (not that DA:O didn't work out well either...but i don't think sexuall preference adds something to the characters....also open-bi characters would make it easier to believe (but unrealistic as well, as bi-sexuals are not that common IMHO))

greetings LAX

[sandalisthemaker]

eluvianix wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Inquisitor Recon wrote...

daveliam wrote...
You AGAIN did not address my question.  Where is the equity in the options?  I want AN option.  I would like to have a choice.  Did I have a choice in LI's in DA: O as a gay male?  That is my question to you.

Well yes, you aren't required to even have a romance. And there are brothers which cater to everybody, even those with a passion for nugs, who I will not judge.

I was waiting for you to tie in bestiality with bi and homosexuality.

You and your fellows tend to do that.

Glad, I'm not the only on who caught that. 

When you constantly battle trolls, you tend to pick up on their tactics.

[daveliam]

greengoron89 wrote...

Personally I thought Morrigan was a coldhearted, manipulative b**** who only cared about the practical uses of my Warden. I also thought Leliana was bats*** insane and yammered on about the Maker far too much (I'm agnostic for crying out loud!).

So those whole two options presented to me, as a heterosexual male, were not satisfactory. I demand more characters be made available to the straight male as we clearly do not have a diverse enough selection of personalities to choose from.

Furthermore, as an ardent dwarf supporter, I found the lack of Sigrun action for my Dwarf Noble Warden appalling. Two noble hunters and a "crafter" at The Pearl were not good enough, and being forced to choose from the two already existing HUMAN romance options was more than a little offensive.

Therefore I demand that straight males are given a more eclectic group of romance options so as to please all tastes. Make it happen, Bioware!

Point = Missed.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

wolfhowwl wrote...

CrustyBot wrote...

Post I am copy pasting from somewhere because I feel it is relevant (watch nobody read it and continue with back and forth):

My bigger concern is that which I worry about in all Bioware (and most other game writing) games: is this putting in a character because the writers wanted a diverse cast, or does the character actually tie in to the feel and themes of the game. Note I didn't say 'plot' - it's easy to add trivial plot points that bring in extraneous characters, there are plenty of characters in all media that are vital to the work despite having little direct connection to the plot. Themes and feel mean a lot more - and are woefully underthought in most game writing.

That doesn't mean the character's transexuality has to have thematic relevance - that can be part of the characterisation that lifts it from a 'bottle of themes' to an actual character (though given the obliviousness of even Bioware's most prominent female writers to the fact that she isn't just writing - but PROMOTING DA2 ON THE BASIS OF - the ****/mother/virgin characterisation uber-cliche, I am skeptical that Bioware can actually deliver on characterisation beyond dating-sim wish-fulfillment. But actually irks me with Bioware's attempts at diversity and sex isn't the diversity itself. That's a good thing, all things considered. But there's never any sign in Bioware games that anyone has sat back and thought 'how does this character contribute to the game's themes and feel?' 'Could we tell this same story, with the same themes without this character?' 'Are we trivialising the aim of diversity by inserting theses characters as unnecessary padding.'

Even in a sprawling game like FO1 and Deus Ex, there are very few (if any) characters without thematic significance (same with VtMB) - noit all are info dums of philosoraptory (very few are), but they all build the world, feel and themes in SOME way. None of them are merely padding - characters with no other purpose than to be characters in the game.

The same reasoning applies to what character actions you focus on. You don't focus on the characters brushing their teeth before going to bed, do you? Even though you could probably insert some teeth-brushing related plot. You don't do it because it is utterly unrelated to the games' themes and feel as a whole. 9 times out of 10, when a game introduces sex or romance, the same problem arises. That's why they're exploitational dating sims, not interesting character interaction.

As a guy who was actively bi prior to marriage, I have no problem with including gay, bi or transgender characters. But in Bioware's case, crying 'trans/homophobia' is deliberately disiningenius. The problem is that times and time again, Bioware has inserted characters purely for the sake of diversity, with no thought as to how those characters will fit the theme and feel of their games. The characters become padding - unnecessary and irritating padding, serving only as wish fulfilment for the kind of people who couldn't pick up even a good pulp book, let alone literature - and that's not an educational snobbishness: there's no shortage of easy to read/watch literature.

That trivialises the very diversity Bioware wants to be lauded for. What worse way of using diverse characters than turning them into sex-fetish freakshows that could have been dropped without losing anything of substance. Can you imagine Silent Hill 2 without the guy's wife? Can you imagine KoTOR2 working (on the restoration mod version) without Bao-dur as a foil to the Exile as they are both being brought full circle, to the point where Bao-dur eventually reaches a grim determination that actually what they did the first time WAS necessary, as he rebuilds the device that devastated the planet the first time around (leaving the Exile to fact e the same choice)? As an example of a minor NPC, can you imagine PS:T without Ingriss, the impoverished hive dwellers, the diseased members of the lower ward and the sensates as slaves to their desires...building a theme and setting where everyone - EVERYONE - is trapped in one way or another; just like the TNO when it starts to dawn that he can't just escape out and start again. That like Hamlet (and there's a lot of Hamlet in the TNO's arc), all he can do is move beyond the naivity of thinking that he can achieve some higher justicet - that like when Hamlet responds to Horatio pointing out the obvious (that it's a trap, from which Hamlet will have no chance of escaping), he finally realises that what really matters now isn't being the romantic hero - it's the long-overdue step of finally doing what needs to be done.

There's no reason why this couldn't be done with diverse sexualities. But Bioware has never shown any interest in doing so.

Is this from that appalingly ignorant transphobic, cryptopatriarchal, ciscentered hate site known as the RPG Codex?

No, it's from Kotaku. :innocent:

Also, I just love that quote.

Modifié par CrustyBot, 02 septembre 2013 - 02:29 .

[Hellion Rex]

Inquisitor Recon wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...
I was waiting for you to tie in bestiality with bi and homosexuality.

You and your fellows tend to do that.

You can twist my words however you wish, yet I have no grudge against the many people who have a passion for nugs.

There was no twisting. You mentioned the nug and yet you act surprised when someone sees it as sexuality. No way you couldn't have seen that coming.

[sandalisthemaker]

Inquisitor Recon wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...
I was waiting for you to tie in bestiality with bi and homosexuality.

You and your fellows tend to do that.

You can twist my words however you wish, yet I have no grudge against the many people who have a passion for nugs.

Yet you have a grudge with people who want to romance a character they like regardless of the gender of their own character.
Go figure.

Modifié par sandalisthemaker, 02 septembre 2013 - 02:28 .

[d4eaming]

So no one has explained why a fantasy world created by a company that has stated their intentions to be inclusive must follow real world statistics. It's a fake place, BW made up all the rules of that universe. They can decide for themselves whether the population has a higher percentage of GLBT people than real life does. They have apparently chosen not to make it match real world statistics- because it's their world and they are allowed to dictate how many gay, straight, bi, and trans people exist in their world.

So basically, people are telling the Maker(s) that they created their world wrong.

Ah, narcissism.

[Hellion Rex]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Inquisitor Recon wrote...

daveliam wrote...
You AGAIN did not address my question.  Where is the equity in the options?  I want AN option.  I would like to have a choice.  Did I have a choice in LI's in DA: O as a gay male?  That is my question to you.

Well yes, you aren't required to even have a romance. And there are brothers which cater to everybody, even those with a passion for nugs, who I will not judge.

I was waiting for you to tie in bestiality with bi and homosexuality.

You and your fellows tend to do that.

Glad, I'm not the only on who caught that. 

When you constantly battle trolls, you tend to pick up on their tactics.

They do become depressingly predictable, don't they...

[Steelcan]

I honestly expect no reasonableness to be had on this front, if history is any evidence. People want what they want, and will lament when they don't get it. Nothing wrong with that, so long as they don't start suggesting that they're entitled to romance who and what they want in the game, and that we are bad guys for actively turning off the romance switch for characters who, in their minds, should be sex-able. The idea that not every character in the game will or even should be available to them just doesn't compute, apparently.


from Gaider

[ParkBom]

eluvianix wrote...

sandalisthemaker wrote...

Inquisitor Recon wrote...

daveliam wrote...
You AGAIN did not address my question.  Where is the equity in the options?  I want AN option.  I would like to have a choice.  Did I have a choice in LI's in DA: O as a gay male?  That is my question to you.

Well yes, you aren't required to even have a romance. And there are brothers which cater to everybody, even those with a passion for nugs, who I will not judge.

I was waiting for you to tie in bestiality with bi and homosexuality.

You and your fellows tend to do that.

Glad, I'm not the only on who caught that. 

I believe incest should be added to that list as well.

[ObserverStatus]

Seraph Cross wrote...
Another thread like , REALLY?

Don't hate, if people want to fight over this some more, then it's their right to. It isn't hurting anyone.

[Hellion Rex]

d4eaming wrote...

So no one has explained why a fantasy world created by a company that has stated their intentions to be inclusive must follow real world statistics. It's a fake place, BW made up all the rules of that universe. They can decide for themselves whether the population has a higher percentage of GLBT people than real life does. They have apparently chosen not to make it match real world statistics- because it's their world and they are allowed to dictate how many gay, straight, bi, and trans people exist in their world.

So basically, people are telling the Maker(s) that they created their world wrong.

Ah, narcissism.

Interesting take, one that I find refreshing.

[Inquisitor Recon]

daveliam wrote...
1.)  Buy a gaming computer so I can change the game through a mod
2.)  Have a straight romance instead of a gay one
3.)  Have no romance at all

Seriously?!?  Those are your answers to my question:  You stated that DA: O was fair in how they provided options in the romances and I want to know what options I had as a gay male outside of Zevran who wanted to access the romance content.

Now, let's cut to the chase.  You CAN'T answer this question because there WERE no options for gay males.  There was a single LI and I had to either take him or leave him in a game where straight players had an option.  You can't answer my question because it completely negates your argument.

I suppose you can think there were no options for you if you wish, that doesn't mean any developer has the requirement to provide you or anybody with romance options, and it is ridiculous to expect them to provide options specifically for you.

What about all of those poor asexual people, no options for them, how unjust.

eluvianix wrote...
There was no twisting. You mentioned the nug and yet you act surprised when someone sees it as sexuality. No way you couldn't have seen that coming.

It's easy to find some sort of imagined slight when one looks for a reason to be offended.

Modifié par Inquisitor Recon, 02 septembre 2013 - 02:30 .

[Hellion Rex]

Inquisitor Recon wrote...

daveliam wrote...
1.)  Buy a gaming computer so I can change the game through a mod
2.)  Have a straight romance instead of a gay one
3.)  Have no romance at all

Seriously?!?  Those are your answers to my question:  You stated that DA: O was fair in how they provided options in the romances and I want to know what options I had as a gay male outside of Zevran who wanted to access the romance content.

Now, let's cut to the chase.  You CAN'T answer this question because there WERE no options for gay males.  There was a single LI and I had to either take him or leave him in a game where straight players had an option.  You can't answer my question because it completely negates your argument.

I suppose you can think there were no options for you if you wish, that doesn't mean any developer has the requirement to provide you or anybody with romance options, and it is ridiculous to expect them to provide options specifically for you.

What about all of those poor asexual people, no options for them, how unjust.

Facepalm...there would be no reason to have options if they were ASEXUAL genius.

[canarius]

d4eaming wrote...

So no one has explained why a fantasy world created by a company that has stated their intentions to be inclusive must follow real world statistics. It's a fake place, BW made up all the rules of that universe. They can decide for themselves whether the population has a higher percentage of GLBT people than real life does. They have apparently chosen not to make it match real world statistics- because it's their world and they are allowed to dictate how many gay, straight, bi, and trans people exist in their world.

So basically, people are telling the Maker(s) that they created their world wrong.

Ah, narcissism.

Most of the players are straight males. If Bioware wants to sell alot of copies, they should consider this fact.

[WildOrchid]

sandalisthemaker wrote...



I was waiting for you to tie in bestiality with bi and homosexuality.

Ugh, most str8 people always talk about bestiality when we the discussion is about bi/gays. I worry for them as it seems their mind always goes there.