190 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Morocco Mole wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I can't wait for the Dalish to reclaim the Dales.

Until they get kicked out again.

You make a great many assumptions.

[dragonflight288]

It's quite possible that the humans will lack the strength to take on the elves again. Orlais is in a civil war, the Chantry has splintered into many warring groups, the veil is torn and demons are pouring through, dragons have returned in force, and the Qunari are on the move.

The elves regaining a piece of land is the least of humanities worries. If they retake the Dales, the Orlesians won't have the strength to take it back because of their civil war, not without another Exalted March. The Chantry cannot declare another exalted march, it doesn't have an armed force anymore. The templars, Seekers and mages have all left and are fighting one another. Any threat from the Chantry at this point is laughable. Ferelden won't help Orlais in any way, Nevarra and Rivain are just as antagonistic towards Orlais a Ferelden is. The Free Marches aren't really a nation so much as a large group of city-states similar to ancient greece, so any support from them would be scattered, and they have their own problems. Add in the dragons, demons and Qunari, I do not see the humans getting the strength to take back the land if the if elves claim it.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm all for the Dalish mage combo, and confess to being just a tad satisfied about this regarding all the people who apparently hate the Dalish.

I don't hate the dalish - I just dislike racist beliefs and like the elves. That's why I would like a CE option. This way, everyone is happy. It makes no difference to me if I can't be an elf and a mage simultaneously. 

[Xilizhra]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm all for the Dalish mage combo, and confess to being just a tad satisfied about this regarding all the people who apparently hate the Dalish.

I don't hate the dalish - I just dislike racist beliefs and like the elves. That's why I would like a CE option. This way, everyone is happy. It makes no difference to me if I can't be an elf and a mage simultaneously. 

Then be a Dalish who's not racist. It's remarkably easy in DAO. In fact, I think being racist is harder.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 12 septembre 2013 - 04:54 .

[The Elder King]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm all for the Dalish mage combo, and confess to being just a tad satisfied about this regarding all the people who apparently hate the Dalish.

I don't hate the dalish - I just dislike racist beliefs and like the elves. That's why I would like a CE option. This way, everyone is happy. It makes no difference to me if I can't be an elf and a mage simultaneously. 

I think it's likely that the warrior/rogue elf will not be dalish. They seem to want to give a different background to mages and non-mages of the same race.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

Then be a Dalish who's not racist. It's remarkably easy in DAO. In fact, I think being racist is harder. 

True. Being Dalish is not synonymous with being racist. The tensions between elves and humans are rooted in a history of centuries slavery and (according to Dalish history) invasion to force religious conversion. I'd also argue that being hunted every day of your life by templars and having your religion outlawed in human society contributes to why some Dalish have such a bleak outlook on humans.

[Shadow Fox]

dragonflight288 wrote...

It's quite possible that the humans will lack the strength to take on the elves again. Orlais is in a civil war, the Chantry has splintered into many warring groups, the veil is torn and demons are pouring through, dragons have returned in force, and the Qunari are on the move.

The elves regaining a piece of land is the least of humanities worries. If they retake the Dales, the Orlesians won't have the strength to take it back because of their civil war, not without another Exalted March. The Chantry cannot declare another exalted march, it doesn't have an armed force anymore. The templars, Seekers and mages have all left and are fighting one another. Any threat from the Chantry at this point is laughable. Ferelden won't help Orlais in any way, Nevarra and Rivain are just as antagonistic towards Orlais a Ferelden is. The Free Marches aren't really a nation so much as a large group of city-states similar to ancient greece, so any support from them would be scattered, and they have their own problems. Add in the dragons, demons and Qunari, I do not see the humans getting the strength to take back the land if the if elves claim it.

Tevinter

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm all for the Dalish mage combo, and confess to being just a tad satisfied about this regarding all the people who apparently hate the Dalish.

I don't hate the dalish - I just dislike racist beliefs and like the elves. That's why I would like a CE option. This way, everyone is happy. It makes no difference to me if I can't be an elf and a mage simultaneously. 

Then be a Dalish who's not racist. It's remarkably easy in DAO. In fact, I think being racist is harder.

Being a Dalish appears to be fundamentally tied up with belief in a way that being a member of another race (with the exception of being a Qunari vs. Tal-Vasoth) isn't. 

Can you be a dalish and disbelieve in the creators? In elven immortality? That the Dalish are wrong to see themselves as more elven than the City Elves? 

These are the beliefs that I think are problematic. The immortality belief being by far the most racist, and tied up with the racial slurs the elves still use. 

Its like the difference between being human and being Andrastian. 

Modifié par In Exile, 12 septembre 2013 - 07:00 .

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You must really hate Andrastian society, then.

Seriously, we've met enough Dalish to know that you can't condemn them all for the perspective held by some. And I fully expect to deal with racism and accusations of being a "heathen" playing as a Dalish mage in Andrastian society. 

Except that's the way most Dalish act. 

We have only seen a few people in two clans acting that way. We've met others who were the opposite. I'm curious, do you condemn Andrastian humans as a whole for the racism and hostile attitude towards non-Andrastians held by some of them?

We haven't seen Andrastians claim you aren't human if you don't believe in the Maker now have we?

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

It's quite possible that the humans will lack the strength to take on the elves again. Orlais is in a civil war, the Chantry has splintered into many warring groups, the veil is torn and demons are pouring through, dragons have returned in force, and the Qunari are on the move.

The elves regaining a piece of land is the least of humanities worries. If they retake the Dales, the Orlesians won't have the strength to take it back because of their civil war, not without another Exalted March. The Chantry cannot declare another exalted march, it doesn't have an armed force anymore. The templars, Seekers and mages have all left and are fighting one another. Any threat from the Chantry at this point is laughable. Ferelden won't help Orlais in any way, Nevarra and Rivain are just as antagonistic towards Orlais a Ferelden is. The Free Marches aren't really a nation so much as a large group of city-states similar to ancient greece, so any support from them would be scattered, and they have their own problems. Add in the dragons, demons and Qunari, I do not see the humans getting the strength to take back the land if the if elves claim it.

Tevinter

Who seem a little preoccupied with the Qunari right now.

[In Exile]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You must really hate Andrastian society, then.

Seriously, we've met enough Dalish to know that you can't condemn them all for the perspective held by some. And I fully expect to deal with racism and accusations of being a "heathen" playing as a Dalish mage in Andrastian society. 

Except that's the way most Dalish act. 

We have only seen a few people in two clans acting that way. We've met others who were the opposite. I'm curious, do you condemn Andrastian humans as a whole for the racism and hostile attitude towards non-Andrastians held by some of them?

We can certainly condemn Andrastians for their beleof about mages which are an inherent part of their theology. There may be individual members that disavow those tenants of their faith, but we can't know who they are. 

And when you have things like Shartan's portion of the chant being outright heresy it becomes hard to separate out a devout andrastian from the offensive beliefs inherent in the chant. 

It's why I only roll with atheists when I play as a human. That's not tied up with being human even if it is tied up with being Andrastian. Because Andrastian isn't a nationality or a culture. 

A better example is the qunari. Do you hold them all in a negative light because of their view on mages and individual freedom? 

[Shadow Fox]

In Exile wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You must really hate Andrastian society, then.

Seriously, we've met enough Dalish to know that you can't condemn them all for the perspective held by some. And I fully expect to deal with racism and accusations of being a "heathen" playing as a Dalish mage in Andrastian society. 

Except that's the way most Dalish act. 

We have only seen a few people in two clans acting that way. We've met others who were the opposite. I'm curious, do you condemn Andrastian humans as a whole for the racism and hostile attitude towards non-Andrastians held by some of them?

We can certainly condemn Andrastians for their beleof about mages which are an inherent part of their theology. There may be individual members that disavow those tenants of their faith, but we can't know who they are. 

And when you have things like Shartan's portion of the chant being outright heresy it becomes hard to separate out a devout andrastian from the offensive beliefs inherent in the chant. 

It's why I only roll with atheists when I play as a human. That's not tied up with being human even if it is tied up with being Andrastian. Because Andrastian isn't a nationality or a culture. 

A better example is the qunari. Do you hold them all in a negative light because of their view on mages and individual freedom? 

Not as a species I don't but I loath the Qun just as I despise the Dwarven Caste system.

[LobselVith8]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Even a divided Orlais can handle the Dalish.

I don't share your opinion on the matter.

Morocco Mole wrote...

There are how many clans full of how many elves my friends? 

We don't know, but there are nomadic clans all over the continent.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm all for the Dalish mage combo, and confess to being just a tad satisfied about this regarding all the people who apparently hate the Dalish.

I don't hate the dalish - I just dislike racist beliefs and like the elves. That's why I would like a CE option. This way, everyone is happy. It makes no difference to me if I can't be an elf and a mage simultaneously. 

Then be a Dalish who's not racist. It's remarkably easy in DAO. In fact, I think being racist is harder.

Being a Dalish appears to be fundamentally tied up with belief in a way that being a member of another race (with the exception of being a Qunari vs. Tal-Vasoth) isn't. 

Can you be a dalish and disbelieve in the creators? In elven immortality? That the Dalish are wrong to see themselves as more elven than the City Elves? 

These are the beliefs that I think are problematic. The immortality belief being by far the most racist, and tied up with the racial slurs the elves still use. 

Its like the difference between being human and being Andrastian. 

Sure. The Creators one is borderline I guess but one of the reasons I like RPing as a Dalish is that there are really any number of attitudes one of them could have to all the issues they face reguarly. We've seen examples of contrasting attitudes toward humans, towards city elves, towards their own importance, towards settling down in general, towards the importance of the past vs the the importance of the future. Many dalish have differing perspectives on what their ultimate goals for the future should be.

I played my Dalish Warden as someone who favored finding a way to coexist with humanity and greatly regretted finding the mirror. In my mind he would have likely been horrified if he discovered Merrill was spending so much effort putting it back together (with blood magic no less). I never felt like it didn't fit and found it a very satisfying experience.

There are both positive and negative ideals associated with the Dalish, just like with the Chantry or with humans or Qunari at large. Narrator Ducan describes them as noble wanderers, Calian said he heard they have great honor. But they are sometimes also bandits and racists. A Dalish PC could be potentially either or even a bit of both.

I think the prospect of going to war with Orlais is a pretty catastrophic strategic and moral mistep on their part though. Even if they win (which is a huge if), they'd have to do a lot of unethical things to get there and they can't absord casualties like the humans can. If they lose they could doom their race for good. Even if they win then what? They've won a warn torn region at great cost in the middle of a world falling into chaos.

At this point assuming that they are even going to try to take the Dales back by force, much less actually suceeding at doing it is still premature.

I'm not sure how I feel about the prospect of a Dalish Mage, mostly because I was planning on using a non mage for my pro elf playthrough, but if a mage is the only Dalish character I'd probably use that instead.

[Shadow Fox]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Even a divided Orlais can handle the Dalish.

I don't share your opinion on the matter.

Morocco Mole wrote...

There are how many clans full of how many elves my friends? 

We don't know, but there are nomadic clans all over the continent.

That can't get along.

[In Exile]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
Sure. The Creators one is borderline I guess but one of the reasons I like RPing as a Dalish is that there are really any number of attitudes one of them could have to all the issues they face reguarly. We've seen examples of contrasting attitudes toward humans, towards city elves, towards their own importance, towards settling down in general, towards the importance of the past vs the the importance of the future. Many dalish have differing perspectives on what their ultimate goals for the future should be.

I'm not talking about goals - I'm talking about beliefs. We haven't seen any Dalish disavow their religion. We haven't seen any Dalish question their immortality. We haven't even seen very much in terms of the difference re: the City Elves and how they're viewed. 

I'm not convincted that the Dalish would tolerate someone of their own that stood up and said that the elves were never immortal. Look at what they did to Merril for wanting to cleanse a shard to recapture a part of their own lost culture. Not only was it organized by what amounted to her foster mother, but all of the clan went along with ostracizing her and treating her, essentially, as a plague bearing rat. 

[LobselVith8]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

We don't know, but there are nomadic clans all over the continent.

That can't get along.

I think the goal of an elven homeland would unify many of them. I can certainly envision playing as a Dalish who wants to give his people a land of their own.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

In Exile wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
Sure. The Creators one is borderline I guess but one of the reasons I like RPing as a Dalish is that there are really any number of attitudes one of them could have to all the issues they face reguarly. We've seen examples of contrasting attitudes toward humans, towards city elves, towards their own importance, towards settling down in general, towards the importance of the past vs the the importance of the future. Many dalish have differing perspectives on what their ultimate goals for the future should be.

I'm not talking about goals - I'm talking about beliefs. We haven't seen any Dalish disavow their religion. We haven't seen any Dalish question their immortality. We haven't even seen very much in terms of the difference re: the City Elves and how they're viewed. 

I'm not convincted that the Dalish would tolerate someone of their own that stood up and said that the elves were never immortal. Look at what they did to Merril for wanting to cleanse a shard to recapture a part of their own lost culture. Not only was it organized by what amounted to her foster mother, but all of the clan went along with ostracizing her and treating her, essentially, as a plague bearing rat. 

Some Dalish have very negative views on City Elves (such as the guards in DA 2) but Haren Paivel, for instance, seems to believe that there is some value to learning for the City Elves someday. Pol was quite welcomed by the Sabrae clan when he first arrived, Marethari didn't show any disgust for the City Elves when she visited the alienage. Lanaya, while she didn't understand the city elves, didn't seem to have a super negative attitude towards them.

I'm also not sure the Dalish would necessarily all see their old immortality as directly relevant to their lives today.  Some would of course, but for others they could just see it as if they were once, they are not now and haven't been for thousands of years.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 13 septembre 2013 - 01:09 .

[Drasanil]

Reading this thread I think the thing I find the most confusing are people's weird attitudes towards any perceived intolerance. When all is said and done such 'bad' intolerance actually arose for a reason and makes sense with in the setting itself. 

The Chantry is 'mean' to mages. Yes they are, while that may not be entirely morally right in the larger sense of it, it is not with out reason, especially given the role mages played in history and just how flat out horrible the Tevinter Imperium used to be. The problem with mages is that while they are currently an 'oppressed' minority, history has showed that if they are not kept in line and 'oppressed' they become an extremely powerful minority who then go on to oppress the majority and often in ways which are far more brutal and bloodthirsty than what they currently suffer. Uncle Ben said with Great Power comes Great Responsibility. Unfortunately this isn't a comic book, the setting is deliberately based on shades of grey. The nature of power is to use it, more often than not to further oneself. Ignoring that basic part of human nature is simply foolish, doubly so given what mages can actually do just by thinking about it.  

The Dalish are racist (who isn't in this setting btw?) they dislike Humans and view City Elves as 'inferior'. Yes many of them do and they have been given ample reason to. They didn't just decide one day: 'Hey let's hate humans, wouldn't that be cool? And while we are at it lets treat City Elves like dung because they sort of smell like it!' There are reasons for it, humans robbed them of their homeland twice, the immortality thing isn't even relevant to this basic point, tried to subjugate them twice. And in the second, after all the elves did to free themselves a large part of them decided to turn around and embrace human subjugation once again, despite it all. Is really a wonder the Dalish don't think much of City Elves? Orlais killed their fledgeling nation and rather than submit they chose a life of hardship and wandering to preserve what little they had managed to reclaim of their culture/past, only to see so many of their kith and kin turn around and readily accept the human yoke again. They have ample reason to dislike humans and treat city elves like garbage, the fact they are tolerant as they are, prefering to avoid conflicts with humans and move on and ready to accept runaways into their clans despite everything speaks volume to a certain level of tolerance and forgiveness.   

Yes, I readily admit a lot of this stuff is readily distasteful to modern values, but judging the setting by those criteria and condemning everything that doesn't fit into a happy tolerant view of the world seems like people are just deliberately ignoring the history of the setting itself and why things are as they are. For every 'bad' there are good sides, and for every 'oppressed' groups there are bad sides.

The Chantry officially oppresses mages yes and glosses over the elves' role in Andrastes story, but by the same tokenthey run many charities. Many of the chantries followers take the chant's lessons to heart as opposed to the official dogma. The blind templar who investigates the alienage because it was the right thing to do, despite the fact no one else cared, the chantry priestess at the beginning in the CE origin who preformed weddings for CEs because it was right, even though most humans didn't care.

The Dalish dislike humans, yes but most prefer not to engage in conflict with them. Merathari even points out that most humans are simply ignorant, they are simple people and lead simple lives, to fight them would be pointless and counter productive. They view city elves as less elven, but by the same token, they readily accept any who are willing to rediscover their roots, and the dalish are actively counting on city elves to help them better understand humans should they ever be position to reform a country for their people again.

Tevinter are horrible slavers and blood mages etc etc... Yet oddly enough, where as the notion of a rich elf would be nearly unthinkable in the rest of Thedas, the idea is not so unthinkable in Tevinter who actually do have them and don't simply run around knocking them bad down for the fun of it. 

The Qun is horribly oppressive and deprives all who live under it of freedom and yet it doesn't discriminate. Elves can command human in the Qun and it's not odd or wrong or confusing when it happens.    

Modifié par Drasanil, 13 septembre 2013 - 01:20 .

[In Exile]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
Some Dalish have very negative views on City Elves (such as the guards in DA 2) but Haren Paivel, for instance, seems to believe that there is some value to learning for the City Elves someday. Pol was quite welcomed by the Sabrae clan when he first arrived, Marethari didn't show any disgust for the City Elves when she visited the alienage. Lanaya, while she didn't understand the city elves, didn't seem to have a super negative attitude towards them.

Paivel's view amounts to "maybe we shouldn't eradicate their culture entirely when we assimilate them" and the Dalish accept CEs only if the CEs abandon what makes them a CE and become Dalish. 

I'm also not sure the Dalish would necessarily all see their old immortality as directly relevant to their lives today.  Some would of course, but for others they could just see it as if they were once, they are not now and haven't been for thousands of years. 

I'm not talking about it being directly related. I'm talking about how insanely IRL racist it would be if a group today stood up and said that they believe that literal exposure to a particular group was tantamount to a death plague and then used a slur specific to that to refer to that group. 

There's a big gulf between "I hate humans because of what they did to our people" (what the CEs believe, for example) and "our people were immortal and human are plague bearing rats". 

Modifié par In Exile, 13 septembre 2013 - 01:24 .

[Xilizhra]

Can you be a dalish and disbelieve in the creators? In elven immortality? That the Dalish are wrong to see themselves as more elven than the City Elves?

Regarding the last point, who's more Jewish--as in, who possesses more traits linked to the Jewish people? An ethnic Jew who's an atheist, or an ethnic Jew who still follows the religion?
Also, so far as I know, yes.

These are the beliefs that I think are problematic. The immortality belief being by far the most racist, and tied up with the racial slurs the elves still use.

The immortality belief isn't at all racist because it says nothing about inherent inferiority of other races. Believing that humans were a vector for its loss might be racist, but it seems to say more about elves than humans in particular.

There's a big gulf between "I hate humans because of what they did to
our people" (what the CEs believe, for example) and "our people were
immortal and human are plague bearing rats".

The Dalish have never said that humans have plagued any other races. As such, as I mentioned prior, it seems more like a vulnerability in the elven immortality than humans being inherently baneful.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 13 septembre 2013 - 01:26 .

[BlueMagitek]

Remember, if you believe that merely breathing the same air with another race has harmed your own race, that might be racist.

Hopefully someone grasps how ridiculous that concept is. <_<
It's totes racist until they bring out some hard evidence, and not that one guy whose dad has been around since the Dales who we have never seen nor confirmed for ourselves.

But this discussion has been done before and no new information has been revealed.

Modifié par BlueMagitek, 13 septembre 2013 - 01:30 .