190 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Remember, if you believe that merely breathing the same air with another race has harmed your own race, that might be racist.

Hopefully someone grasps how ridiculous that concept is. <_<

Ah, yes; the Native Americans dying by millions in smallpox plagues spread by Europeans was so racist on the natives' part.

[BlueMagitek]

Ah yes,I recall coming upon ancient elven tombs just full of living elves who immediately died as soon as I brought a human companion in there.

Oh wait, we only have the stories of the Dalish, well known to be bands of brigands, murderers and blood mages most foul.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm not sure I'd characterize Paivel's view that way exactly, but really my point is there still are different perspectives by different Dalish when it comes to interacting with City Elves. Velanna and Marethari and Lanaya don't demonstrate the exact same attitude.

Secondly, the Dalish are hardly the only group to use slurs. And really comparing most of anything in Thedas to modern day standards is not exactly fair. It's a medieval based world, every faction is going to be severely flawed. I don't think it's fair to define the elves or humans mostly by their flaws.

Plus, while the immortality story does cause some elves to look on humans as plague bearing vermin it doesn't always. And the concept of the quickening is not quite the same as a disease. Humans are mortal, it's not a plague that's just how they are. The idea could be seen as just that being close to humans made elves more like them.

I have my doubts as a player that it's true and yeah it can be seen as racist, but it doesn't necessarily need to mean dalish see humans as bearers of illness.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 13 septembre 2013 - 01:37 .

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Regarding the last point, who's more Jewish--as in, who possesses more traits linked to the Jewish people? An ethnic Jew who's an atheist, or an ethnic Jew who still follows the religion?

Well, that's a very hot button topic, speaking as an atheist Jew. In fact, this is where my entire problem with this thing comes from. It's the difference between the culture and life that developed in the shtel and what secular families took from that, and it being seen as somehow less than because of what they did and didn't do afterward. 

The immortality belief isn't at all racist because it says nothing about inherent inferiority of other races.

Are you honestly telling me that beleving that you will never die and everyone else will isn't a belief about superiority and inferiority?

Believing that humans were a vector for its loss might be racist, but it seems to say more about elves than humans in particular.

Yes, racists beliefs do say lots more about the people holding the racist belief than the targets of that belief. My problem is with the de facto requirement of holding that belief to be a member of the culture. 

The Dalish have never said that humans have plagued any other races. As such, as I mentioned prior, it seems more like a vulnerability in the elven immortality than humans being inherently baneful. 

See? You can't even avoid doing it. The emphasized sentence is just another way of saying "the humans plagued the Dalish", i.e, "the humans are a cause of a plague on the Dalish", i.e., "the humans are plague bearers". 

This. Is. Racist. If someone IRL said that being near another group in and of itself caused their kids to be stupider and that group X needs to isolate from group Y because the mere existence of group Y physical alters and poisons them, they'd be held up with the KKK as an example of deluded racism. 

This isn't subtle. 

[BlueMagitek]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I'm not sure I'd characterize Paivel's view that way exactly, but really my point is there still are different perspectives by different Dalish when it comes to interacting with City Elves. Velanna and Marethari and Lanaya don't demonstrate the exact same attitude.

Secondly, the Dalish are hardly the only group to use slurs. And really comparing most of anything in Thedas to modern day standards is not exactly fair. It's a medieval based world, every faction is going to be severely flawed. I don't think it's fair to define the elves or humans mostly by their flaws.

Plus, while the immortality story does cause some elves to look on humans as plague bearing vermin it doesn't always. And the concept of the quickening is not quite the same as a disease. Humans are mortal, it's not a plague that's just how they are. The idea could be seen as just that being close to humans made elves more like them.

I have my doubts as a player that it's true but it doesn't necessarily need to mean dalish see humans as bearers of illness.

You are far too rational and reasonable for this.

Just kick back and have some fun.

[Xilizhra]

Well, that's a very hot button topic, speaking as an atheist Jew. In fact, this is where my entire problem with this thing comes from. It's the difference between the culture and life that developed in the shtel and what secular families took from that, and it being seen as somehow less than because of what they did and didn't do afterward.

What do you identify as?

Are you honestly telling me that beleving that you will never die and everyone else will isn't a belief about superiority and inferiority?

IIRC, the elves never had any problems with dwarves being mortal.

See? You can't even avoid doing it. The emphasized sentence is just another way of saying "the humans plagued the Dalish", i.e, "the humans are a cause of a plague on the Dalish", i.e., "the humans are plague bearers".

Unpleasantly, this is sometimes true. White (and black) people were plaguebearers to the Natives... and in more places than America. In fact, everywhere isolated that white people explored, they spread plagues among the native inhabitants, thus originating Darwin's quote “Wherever the European has trod, death seems to pursue the aboriginal.”

[In Exile]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
Secondly, the Dalish are hardly the only group to use slurs. And really comparing most of anything in Thedas to modern day standards is not exactly fair. It's a medieval based world, every faction is going to be severely flawed. I don't think it's fair to define the elves or humans mostly by their flaws.

I don't define the elves by their flaws. I define the Dalish by their (racist) beliefs. Just like how I define Andrastians by their bigoted belliefs. Look at what Sebastian believes, for example. 

Plus, while the immortality story does cause some elves to look on humans as plague bearing vermin it doesn't always. And the concept of the quickening is not quite the same as a disease. Humans are mortal, it's not a plague that's just how they are. The idea could be seen as just that being close to humans made elves more like them.

The concept is racist. If we said, say, "group x is greedy, it's just how they are", that'd be really bloody racist. The belief is racist. 

Now, not all elves belive in that. Absolutely. Just like not all humans believe that mages should be chained up and are cursed by the Maker. But Andrastians believe that. 

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
What do you identify as?

Edit: On second though I'm not comfortable with a personal answer like that online. Apologies. 

IIRC, the elves never had any problems with dwarves being mortal.

That's not what makes it about superiority. Being immortal is, in and of itself, a belief in superiority. If it were inferior (or neutral), it would be nonsensical for the elves to care about its loss. The sense of loss is there because immortality is valuable. 

It's assigning that value to them, and then reducing the other group to the absence of that value, and indeed describing the entire group by that one thing that you've essentially stereotyped them at least, and because of the negative connotation, slurred them. Here's the best example from the "Arlathan Part One" Codex:

The humans first arrived from Par Vollen to the north. Called shemlen, or "quicklings," by the ancients, the humans were pitiful creatures whose lives blinked by in an instant. When they first met the elves, the humans were brash and warlike, quick to anger and quicker to fight, with no patience for the unhurried pace of elven diplomacy.

...
Our ancestors came to look upon the humans as parasites, which I understand is similar to the way the humans see our people in the cities. The ancient elves immediately moved to close Elvhenan off from the humans, for fear that this quickening effect would crumble the civilization.

I mean, the codex even draws an analogy between the humans outrageously racist views of CEs to the old Arlathan elves view of humans. What else is that but racist?

Unpleasantly, this is sometimes true. White (and black) people were plaguebearers to the Natives... and in more places than America. In fact, everywhere isolated that white people explored, they spread plagues among the native inhabitants, thus originating Darwin's quote “Wherever the European has trod, death seems to pursue the aboriginal.”

Putting everything else aside for the moment, there's an importnat distinction here. Europeans were a disease vector. The fault, today, is not being European. We know that I, for example, will not give a Native American an illness by existing around them. But the Dalish don't believe humans carried a disease. They believe humans are a disease. 

Modifié par In Exile, 13 septembre 2013 - 01:51 .

[Ryzaki]

Davrel wrote...

Ever since coming across Danyla's psycho assassin daughter on the Wounded Coast, I have secretly nursed dreams of playing a dalish elf with a mohawk. Preferably an archer rogue.

The first to the keeper can't have a mohawk, they'll be in public office soon, can't have this stuff coming back to them. It's a hunter/warrior thing.

Elven warriors being city elves doesn't really seem right, it's not exactly the kind of environment that fosters a proud martial tradition. Like the sign says people; Bearing arms is strictly prohibited, Elves who have swords will die upon them.

Their mother could fight. Not that strange that she'd teach her kid and tell them to keep it a secret. People have taught their children/families things that were forbidden for them for centuries.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well, I suppose I should mention I don't believe it's fair to judge Dalish or Andrastians exclusively by their flaws either. There's more to both of them than just their negative traits. I think both peoples have more noble ideals than bad ideas. And not all examples of either share all the same flaws. Not all Andrastians believe that mages are cursed by the Maker and not all Dalish believe that humans are vermin.

That aside, I don't think that analogy makes sense because calling a whole race greedy is an unfair generalization and a negative moral judgment. The fact that humans grow old and die is not. It is an observable fact of their biology, and contact with humans would have just made the elves more like them. Nowadays, elves are mortal and have been for centuries at least. Avoiding contact with humans is no longer important, if it ever was. I don't think every single Dalish views humans through the prism of being the "disease that is the reason we are not longer immortal" even if they do believe the story of the quickening.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 13 septembre 2013 - 02:31 .

[Han Shot First]

Xilizhra wrote...

BlueMagitek wrote...

Remember, if you believe that merely breathing the same air with another race has harmed your own race, that might be racist.

Hopefully someone grasps how ridiculous that concept is. <_<

Ah, yes; the Native Americans dying by millions in smallpox plagues spread by Europeans was so racist on the natives' part.

While there were numerous atrocities committed by Europeans against native peoples, the spread of smallpox was not one of them. That one is a bit of an urban legend.

Smallpox was spread accidentally through contact (usually through trade) with Europeans who were sick with the disease. Disease also went in the other direction. Syphilis is thought to have originated in the New World and was passed on to European sailors just as unintentionally by native women they had dalliances with.

[Han Shot First]

double post

Modifié par Han Shot First, 13 septembre 2013 - 02:24 .

[Xilizhra]

I mean, the codex even draws an analogy between the humans outrageously racist views of CEs to the old Arlathan elves view of humans. What else is that but racist?

Yes. that would count as racist behavior thousands of years ago.

Putting everything else aside for the moment, there's an importnat distinction here. Europeans were a disease vector. The fault, today, is not being European. We know that I, for example, will not give a Native American an illness by existing around them. But the Dalish don't believe humans carried a disease. They believe humans are a disease.

Right... but to know that, you would need the germ theory, which no one in Thedas has. All the Dalish have is the humans coming to the elves and the elves starting to die. It's a logical conclusion to draw.

While there were numerous atrocities committed by Europeans against native peoples, the spread of smallpox was not one of them. That one is a bit of an urban legend.

Smallpox was spread accidentally through contact (usually through trade) with Europeans who were sick with the disease. Disease also went in the other direction. Syphilis is thought to have originated in the New World and was passed on to European sailors just as unintentionally by native women they had dalliances with.

I didn't say it was necessarily deliberately spread, but spread it was.

[LobselVith8]

Xilizhra wrote...

I didn't say it was necessarily deliberately spread, but spread it was.

The Siege of Fort Pitt and Jeffery Amherst would suggest it was deliberate at times.

[Silfren]

In Exile wrote...

EJ107 wrote...
It doesn't really bother me. I would rather be a city elf, but we get to define our character's so It won't be like we are forced to be anti-human or anything. I also don't think I've ever seen a customisable protagonist have the option of having a welsh voice before. It's an interesting prospect. 

I find it very hard to create a character that grows up in a racist society and entirely disavows their racist views. I don't want to create an elven supremacist, but that's what the Dalish are. 

*gasp*  But...but...Drizzt!

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Yes. that would count as racist behavior thousands of years ago.

That belief is still tied up with the view of humans. 

Right... but to know that, you would need the germ theory, which no one in Thedas has. All the Dalish have is the humans coming to the elves and the elves starting to die. It's a logical conclusion to draw.

No, it's a riduculous conclusion to draw. It's like saying that my failure on a recent exam is explained by the presence of the proctor, whose very existence prevented me from recalling the material. 

There's no indication that such a thing has ever happened otherwise in Thedas, that it is possible, that a mechanism exists for it occuring... anything to give it any viability at all. There's no logical chain of inference other than the conjunction of the two events in time, even on the most charitable historical account that the Dalish have.

*gasp*  But...but...Drizzt!

But Drizzt is an exile for that reason. I mean, if the Inquisitor were a Dalish elf who had left his or her express disavowal of their beliefs, yeah, I'd be happy to play that Dalish character. 

But it's the difference between a quanari and a tal-vashoth. I want to play a qunari (race) but not a qunari (religion). It's the same with the elves. I really want to play an elf (race) but a city elf to free the CEs from Orlesian (and human) tyrrany. 

I don't want to forced to make ridiculous headcannon leaps. 

I support the option for players to be Dalish because people like Xil and Lob want to be, and it meas a lot to them. I just don't want it to be the only option like DA:O! 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well this brings us back to the question of whether the elven mage is always Dalish or just possibly dalish or if the other two elf classes are Dalish or not. I find it a little unlikely to be honest, wouldn't that mean the Dalish PC would need a different voice than other elf PCs?

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 13 septembre 2013 - 03:20 .

[Xilizhra]

No, it's a riduculous conclusion to draw. It's like saying that my failure on a recent exam is explained by the presence of the proctor, whose very existence prevented me from recalling the material.

There's no indication that such a thing has ever happened otherwise in Thedas, that it is possible, that a mechanism exists for it occuring... anything to give it any viability at all. There's no logical chain of inference other than the conjunction of the two events in time, even on the most charitable historical account that the Dalish have.

Given the fragmentation of Arlathan's history, it's entirely possible that there were other factors lost to time that made the ancient elves so certain. Sadly, it's impossible to know, but I firmly believe that trying to restore elven immortality is a noble goal. It just might need different means than that which exist currently.

I support the option for players to be Dalish because people like Xil and Lob want to be, and it meas a lot to them. I just don't want it to be the only option like DA:O!

Er... wat?

[Silfren]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I didn't say it was necessarily deliberately spread, but spread it was.

The Siege of Fort Pitt and Jeffery Amherst would suggest it was deliberate at times.

Indeed.  There are several accounts of smallpox being spread that do look suspciously deliberate.  Given that the Europeans DID understand how deadly smallpox was to the indigenous population, and many of them did recognize how beneficial it was in their efforts to clear out those pesky Natives, even going so far as to say it showed that God favored their efforts, well.  That smallpox might've been deliberately used as a biological weapon can't be dismissed out of hand as an urban legend with no basis.

[dragondreamer]

What I've gotten from a lot of this conversation is that the Dalish are terrible because they hurt feelings by calling people "shems", but humans are okay folks even though they subjugate elves. The conversation uses different terms but it's uncomfortably familiar... Maybe instead of throwing entire cultures under buses because none of them are all flowers and sunshine, we can play individual characters as individuals. I know I intend on playing a Dalish elf, but I'm not planning on him being an ******* to every human he meets. Just the ones he feels have earned it.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
Given the fragmentation of Arlathan's history, it's entirely possible that there were other factors lost to time that made the ancient elves so certain. Sadly, it's impossible to know, but I firmly believe that trying to restore elven immortality is a noble goal. It just might need different means than that which exist currently.

It might be. What makes the belief that humans caused it racist is that there isn't.

Er... wat?

The grammar is borked on that one. I meant to say that I like playing elves, but would like to play a CE. I don't want the option to be limited to being a CE, because being Dalish seems to matter to you and to Lob (among others).  I would like DA:I to be like DA:O, so that we have both CE and Dalish options. I have no interest in what class I'd be limited to. 

[In Exile]

dragondreamer wrote...

What I've gotten from a lot of this conversation is that the Dalish are terrible because they hurt feelings by calling people "shems", but humans are okay folks even though they subjugate elves.  

Where did you get that from? No one said anything like that. In fact, I specifically said the opposite on a number of occasions. 

[Xilizhra]

It might be. What makes the belief that humans caused it racist is that there isn't.

All I'm concerned with is the truth, regardless of what it is. I personally think it's more likely that humans were a vector rather than the cause.

The grammar is borked on that one. I meant to say that I like playing elves, but would like to play a CE. I don't want the option to be limited to being a CE, because being Dalish seems to matter to you and to Lob (among others). I would like DA:I to be like DA:O, so that we have both CE and Dalish options. I have no interest in what class I'd be limited to.

I'm fairly sure that there are CE options as well.

[Silfren]

In Exile wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Yes. that would count as racist behavior thousands of years ago.

That belief is still tied up with the view of humans. 

Right... but to know that, you would need the germ theory, which no one in Thedas has. All the Dalish have is the humans coming to the elves and the elves starting to die. It's a logical conclusion to draw.

No, it's a riduculous conclusion to draw. It's like saying that my failure on a recent exam is explained by the presence of the proctor, whose very existence prevented me from recalling the material. 

There's no indication that such a thing has ever happened otherwise in Thedas, that it is possible, that a mechanism exists for it occuring... anything to give it any viability at all. There's no logical chain of inference other than the conjunction of the two events in time, even on the most charitable historical account that the Dalish have.

*gasp*  But...but...Drizzt!

But Drizzt is an exile for that reason. I mean, if the Inquisitor were a Dalish elf who had left his or her express disavowal of their beliefs, yeah, I'd be happy to play that Dalish character. 

But it's the difference between a quanari and a tal-vashoth. I want to play a qunari (race) but not a qunari (religion). It's the same with the elves. I really want to play an elf (race) but a city elf to free the CEs from Orlesian (and human) tyrrany. 

I don't want to forced to make ridiculous headcannon leaps. 

I support the option for players to be Dalish because people like Xil and Lob want to be, and it meas a lot to them. I just don't want it to be the only option like DA:O! 

LOL...my only point was that I never found Drizzt being so fundamentally different from his people all that plausible.  I like the character and the concept, but I'm supposed to believe that out of the entire rae of Drow, there's exactly one who was in some inexplicable way different?

I wonder how the race issue will be handled, because I thought the Human-Only origin made sense from a lore perspective, but I'm not unhappy to see race options back, mind.  I DO wonder how in the world a Dalish will fit.  If we do end up with that option, it's the elf background I'll play first, as I like the Dalish concept, but I still think it doesn't make sense.  It's too bad there's an entire year to wait before we get to see the context.

[In Exile]

Xilizhra wrote...
All I'm concerned with is the truth, regardless of what it is. I personally think it's more likely that humans were a vector rather than the cause.

I'm also concerned with the truth. Given what we saw of places like Sundermount and the Brecilian Forest, as well as Zathrian, my own theory is that the Arlathan elves were powerful blood mages. Their immortaility related to their ability to use blood magic in a way that was far beyond humans even today. It fits with the idea of elves being more attuned to magic than humans, and to the idea that Arlathan was a magical empire. 

I'm fairly sure that there are CE options as well.

Hopefully.