526 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The idea of no health regen is MEANT to be hard. It is MEANT to scare you away from running head-long into combat without regards to consequences. It is MEANT to make you want to avoid tedious healing or backtracking.

Wishful thinking on your part.

BioWare games aren't hard at normal difficulty. People are scared because this is the BSN, which practices Olympic levels of leaping to conclusions and overreaction.

[The Hierophant]

JL81 wrote...

I agree. For people who play mostly for the story and characters, and don't have nights to spend on trying the same fight over and over again, it's definitely concerning. This is what ruined Dragon's Dogma for me. Ended up stuck at night time in the wilderness. No more health-regen and in very hostile territory. If health had been regenerating, I could have made it out alive instead of being stuck on top of a rock. Terrible gaming experience. I hate this type of game that punish you for making the slightest error. Now, hopefully, DAI won't be half as hard as DD on casual mode. But yeah, health regen would be really nice.

With how tough some of the enemies are health regen wouldn't have saved you. Prep would have though.

[Loup Blanc]

The Hierophant wrote...

JL81 wrote...

I agree. For people who play mostly for the story and characters, and don't have nights to spend on trying the same fight over and over again, it's definitely concerning. This is what ruined Dragon's Dogma for me. Ended up stuck at night time in the wilderness. No more health-regen and in very hostile territory. If health had been regenerating, I could have made it out alive instead of being stuck on top of a rock. Terrible gaming experience. I hate this type of game that punish you for making the slightest error. Now, hopefully, DAI won't be half as hard as DD on casual mode. But yeah, health regen would be really nice.

With how tough some of the enemies are health regen wouldn't have saved you. Prep would have though.

Well, as a matter of fact, I did prepare. Pretty carefully. Had a lot of health-regen items. But even then, I wanted to explore a bit further and got overwhelmed by a couple unexpected encounters. DD is a game that wants to punish you for enjoying it. A game that kicks you in the nuts for wanting to explore, wander a little bit further without running away like a dog back to the nearest safezone. And with the absence of fast-travel, it's more than a chore... it's just terrible gameplay. But that's just me, I'm sure plenty of folks love hardcore difficulty and spending a few hours at night trying to figure out a way to get through. When you're 30+ and you have a couple of kids, you don't exactly have the time to do this anymore.

Now I do not expect DAI to be anything near that level of difficulty, fortunately. I'm sure it'll be fine on casual mode.

[CheshireCat1701]

I am somewhat ambivalent about the no health regen. I’ve played rpgs with and without it. I don’t really think it enhanced Baldur’s Gate all that much, although with the strict inventory limits and characters staying dead until you could go back to town to have them resurrected, BG was a lot much difficult in this regard than anything DA:I will do.

The one problem with this approach is that it is quite easy to imagine spending quite a bit of time playing inventory control clerk instead of actually adventuring. Instead of going on an epic quest to save the cheerleader, save the world, you’re instead slowly sifting through your inventory.

“Let’s see, I have 14 health poultices, 11 lyrium potions, 8 lesser injury kits, 4 regular inventory kits, 12 springs of elfroot, 28 empty flasks and a miscellaneous pair of torn trousers. I’d better go back to the shopkeeper to top off my deep mushroom supply. I’ll need a few extra vials of Rodent-B-Gon in case we encounter rabid desert nugs, and I might need…
…oh s**t! Where did the last hour and a half go? I haven’t even left town yet. Oh well, it’s late. I guess Auntie Em, Little Timmy and the villagers will have to wait until tomorrow to be saved. But at least my inventory is sorted. Fear me, desert nugs!"

A day later…

It seems the rapid desert nugs were more numerous and more rabid than I expected. Time to head back to the Trauma Inn to rest up and spend a few hours restocking my inventory. Don’t worry Auntie Em! Don’t worry Little Timmy! I’ll be back to save you…eventually.”

Not exactly the stuff epic adventure tales are made of.

(Inquisitor slips Leliana a pair of slightly used blue satin shoes and politely asks her not to mention this in the epic ballad she’s composing about their adventures.)

[Fast Jimmy]

So actually your proposal is a bit ridiculous. Combat is, and probably always will be, the main way of interacting with a Bioware world. I wish it wasn't that way, and I hope that someday we can see an LA NOIRE style Bioware game where there might be like 2 or 3 hours without combat, and just talking and investigation, but the chances of that are slim at best.

I'm guessing you haven't seen the threads about the GI reveals this month, because in there, there are screenshots of Exploration skills, which include skills like sneaking. There are going to be more ways to interact with the world than straight combat.

How well these systems work is up for debate, but it is the goal, which means the system has to have non-regenerating health to prevent making these skills so devalued as to be worthless, like what we saw in DA:O.

[Fast Jimmy]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The idea of no health regen is MEANT to be hard. It is MEANT to scare you away from running head-long into combat without regards to consequences. It is MEANT to make you want to avoid tedious healing or backtracking.

Wishful thinking on your part.

BioWare games aren't hard at normal difficulty. People are scared because this is the BSN, which practices Olympic levels of leaping to conclusions and overreaction.

Well, maybe not HARD. But at least enough to give the player pause to running in and stabbing all the things, all the time. If combat is the easiest and best solution with the least amount of cost (like a non-health-regen system would entail), then it makes it hard to get a player to consider another solution or alternative to tackling problems. In short, it increases the amount of problem-solving depth that the game requires. 

[Karlone123]

I'd prefer no health regen, I want my ability to survive to be challenged, I want to be challenged enough that I have to think more smartly about who I take and what I do. I've come to dislike spamming healing buttons.

Modifié par Karlone123, 02 septembre 2013 - 05:08 .

[jwalker]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The idea of no health regen is MEANT to be hard. It is MEANT to scare you away from running head-long into combat without regards to consequences. It is MEANT to make you want to avoid tedious healing or backtracking.

Wishful thinking on your part.

BioWare games aren't hard at normal difficulty. People are scared because this is the BSN, which practices Olympic levels of leaping to conclusions and overreaction.

Well, maybe not HARD. But at least enough to give the player pause to running in and stabbing all the things, all the time. If combat is the easiest and best solution with the least amount of cost (like a non-health-regen system would entail), then it makes it hard to get a player to consider another solution or alternative to tackling problems. In short, it increases the amount of problem-solving depth that the game requires. 

The idea of this toggle is that it'd be, obviuosly, an optional feature for the player. If it exists, how that would affect your game ? If you think it's best to play without health regen, you play without regen. Simple.

[Karlone123]

jwalker wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

The idea of no health regen is MEANT to be hard. It is MEANT to scare you away from running head-long into combat without regards to consequences. It is MEANT to make you want to avoid tedious healing or backtracking.

Wishful thinking on your part.

BioWare games aren't hard at normal difficulty. People are scared because this is the BSN, which practices Olympic levels of leaping to conclusions and overreaction.

Well, maybe not HARD. But at least enough to give the player pause to running in and stabbing all the things, all the time. If combat is the easiest and best solution with the least amount of cost (like a non-health-regen system would entail), then it makes it hard to get a player to consider another solution or alternative to tackling problems. In short, it increases the amount of problem-solving depth that the game requires. 

The idea of this toggle is that it'd be, obviuosly, an optional feature for the player. If it exists, how that would affect your game ? If you think it's best to play without health regen, you play without regen. Simple.

I'm not exactly sure it is as simple as that without making changes to the combat.

[Wulfram]

I don't think the willingness to avoid combat on the part of the player has much to do with regenerating health. It's about designing your areas and skills so that it's an option, and not punishing alternative routes with less XP or missing important items.

If you do that, I don't think you need to penalise people who want to fight with a post-battle timeout.

Modifié par Wulfram, 02 septembre 2013 - 05:12 .

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

So actually your proposal is a bit ridiculous. Combat is, and probably always will be, the main way of interacting with a Bioware world. I wish it wasn't that way, and I hope that someday we can see an LA NOIRE style Bioware game where there might be like 2 or 3 hours without combat, and just talking and investigation, but the chances of that are slim at best.

I'm guessing you haven't seen the threads about the GI reveals this month, because in there, there are screenshots of Exploration skills, which include skills like sneaking. There are going to be more ways to interact with the world than straight combat.

How well these systems work is up for debate, but it is the goal, which means the system has to have non-regenerating health to prevent making these skills so devalued as to be worthless, like what we saw in DA:O.

Also, you can disengage in combat now so you're not forced to fight everything and everyone in the game anyway.

[jwalker]

Karlone123 wrote...

jwalker wrote...

The idea of this toggle is that it'd be, obviuosly, an optional feature for the player. If it exists, how that would affect your game ? If you think it's best to play without health regen, you play without regen. Simple.

I'm not exactly sure it is as simple as that without making changes to the combat.

I wasn't talking about the simplicity or complexity of the coding involved to implement such a feature. 

Those who prefer no health regen, how they would be affected by the existance of an optional feature to have health regen ? 

[OLDIRTYBARON]

jwalker wrote...

Karlone123 wrote...

jwalker wrote...

The idea of this toggle is that it'd be, obviuosly, an optional feature for the player. If it exists, how that would affect your game ? If you think it's best to play without health regen, you play without regen. Simple.

I'm not exactly sure it is as simple as that without making changes to the combat.

I wasn't talking about the simplicity or complexity of the coding involved to implement such a feature. 

Those who prefer no health regen, how they would be affected by the existance of an optional feature to have health regen ? 

They wouldn't feel superior to other players knowing they played the game the right way, and thus got special secret content that was just too hard for other players to see.

That may be a gross generalization but that's the general vibe I get from posters like Fast Jimmy and ecmoose, anyhow.

[Lenimph]

I think my concerns lie with the fact I have played plenty of games where the health doesn't regenerate automatically but not one that doesn't have a way to bypass that handicap. As of now it seems like having a healer might give you a way to bypass this which I don't like as a player who doesn't usually use dedicated healers. But every other game I've played that doesn't have health regen or extremely slow health regen did not have limits on health pots (fallout) or had some other way to obtain it like health drops or items that give slow health regen. (Borderlands...)

Another concern of mine is unlike say in a game where my own physical skills might be able to get me out of a tough situation I was less prepared for, like headshots in shooter such as Fallout or Borderlands, that is practically nonexistent in a Dragon Age game where I have to almost completely rely on level and stats. Though this game does seem to be different in the use of environmental objects and hazards but as of now I can not plan ahead that I can rely on that mechanic as a crutch.
I can also attempt to run away in those games. I wonder if that will be possible here....

Not to mention I'm worried the extra hassle of having to regroup at camp in order to explore will not be worth it seeing how I rarely find loot rewarding in the Dragon Age series. I need more unique items that grant interesting rewards because I rarely find exploration a reward in itself unless the world is extremely beautiful and detailed like in the recent Tomb Raider and not to be mean or anything but the DA:I environment design is not really cutting it for me. If I am rewarded with more interactive dialog and lore though... then hopefully this can work.

Modifié par Lenimph, 02 septembre 2013 - 05:25 .

[Karlone123]

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

jwalker wrote...

Karlone123 wrote...

jwalker wrote...

The idea of this toggle is that it'd be, obviuosly, an optional feature for the player. If it exists, how that would affect your game ? If you think it's best to play without health regen, you play without regen. Simple.

I'm not exactly sure it is as simple as that without making changes to the combat.

I wasn't talking about the simplicity or complexity of the coding involved to implement such a feature. 

Those who prefer no health regen, how they would be affected by the existance of an optional feature to have health regen ? 

They wouldn't feel superior to other players knowing they played the game the right way, and thus got special secret content that was just too hard for other players to see.

That may be a gross generalization but that's the general vibe I get from posters like Fast Jimmy and ecmoose, anyhow.

You need to get a new general vibe or continue to judge people you do not know. i'm sure you're better than those guys who give you "special feelings".

[Maria Caliban]

Fast Jimmy wrote...


Well, maybe not HARD. But at least enough to give the player pause to running in and stabbing all the things, all the time. If combat is the easiest and best solution with the least amount of cost (like a non-health-regen system would entail), then it makes it hard to get a player to consider another solution or alternative to tackling problems. In short, it increases the amount of problem-solving depth that the game requires. 

That's fair.

But given that enemies don't scale, they've also insentivized killing as much stuff as you can. The faster you level up, the easier the remaining challenges will be.

[OLDIRTYBARON]

Karlone123 wrote...

You need to get a new general vibe or continue to judge people you do not know. i'm sure you're better than those guys who give you "special feelings".

Huh. Guess I touched a nerve.

What I don't understand is why some people ostensibly get off on denying others. That's what I was referring to. This idea that BioWare can't make the game work on multiple levels for different players. It's apparently not enough that Tactical View is back (on all platforms!), it's not enough that they've removed level scaling (meh, couldn't care less one way or the other), but they're actively cheering the fact that health regeneration is gone and some people are concerned about that. Concerned enough to make several threads discussing how it is implemented and what kind fo work arounds will exist.

Whenever a viable compromise is presented, it is quickly shot down for illogical and inconsistent reasons that boil down to "Goddamn it play the game my way!" I find that juvenile.

So go ahead and keep your assumptions.

[Karlone123]

OLDIRTYBARON wrote...

Karlone123 wrote...

You need to get a new general vibe or continue to judge people you do not know. i'm sure you're better than those guys who give you "special feelings".

Huh. Guess I touched a nerve.

What I don't understand is why some people ostensibly get off on denying others. That's what I was referring to. This idea that BioWare can't make the game work on multiple levels for different players. It's apparently not enough that Tactical View is back (on all platforms!), it's not enough that they've removed level scaling (meh, couldn't care less one way or the other), but they're actively cheering the fact that health regeneration is gone and some people are concerned about that. Concerned enough to make several threads discussing how it is implemented and what kind fo work arounds will exist.

Whenever a viable compromise is presented, it is quickly shot down for illogical and inconsistent reasons that boil down to "Goddamn it play the game my way!" I find that juvenile.

So go ahead and keep your assumptions.

I don't care much for that, you just can't judge others based on some posts basing your assumptions on that they need to have their pride filled. I only lose a nerve when people get off thinking they have other people figured out. Try to be better than that.

[Wulfram]

EntropicAngel wrote...

You're making a leap there. The fact that enemies don't scale incentivizes leveling as fast as you can, not killing enemies necessarily.

For all we know (and given things like the exploration skills it's quite likely) there will be alternative ways to gain XP from simply killing enemies.

Probably you'll be encouraged to sneak past them, then use your exploration skills to find a different route, then go back and kill them.

[Zevais]

I still don't understand why so many people here that are Pro-No Health Regen are so quick to force it on everyone. We asking for a toggle; we are not asking BioWare to FORCE Health Regen on those that do not want it.

No Health Regen is just pointless, unnecessary tasking to a lot of us, and I think they should have only set that for higher difficulties.

[filetemo]

To the OP: Are you the kind of person who NEVER flees from combat, independently of how wounded you are? easy trick:

Turn the difficulty to casual every time you find an encounter you should flee.

[jwalker]

Karlone123 wrote...

I don't care much for that, you just can't judge others based on some posts basing your assumptions on that they need to have their pride filled. I only lose a nerve when people get off thinking they have other people figured out. Try to be better than that.

Thing is, some people are asking for an optional feature while others are arguing against it, trying to deny them something that would only affect the games of those who choose so.
You could advise them to be better than that as well

[Zevais]

jwalker wrote...

Karlone123 wrote...

I don't care much for that, you just can't judge others based on some posts basing your assumptions on that they need to have their pride filled. I only lose a nerve when people get off thinking they have other people figured out. Try to be better than that.

Thing is, some people are asking for an optional feature while others are arguing against it, trying to deny them something that would only affect the games of those who choose so.
You could advise them to be better than that as well

It seems like these people arguing against it have some sort of pride they have to fill for themselves... as if only the ones willing not to use health regeneration should be allowed to complete the game.

Perhaps they look at it as if it were candy, and they don't have the self control to resist using it.

The game is only as hard as we make it for ourselves. I don't see why OPTIONAL health regeneration is such a threat to anyone else unless they just want to feel superior.