526 réponses à ce sujet

[Mr.House]

Maverick827 wrote...

Volourn wrote...

Why would you do that? WHY!?!

Because the game requires me to.

No it does not, it only does if you don't plan properly.

[Maverick827]

Mr.House wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

Volourn wrote...

Why would you do that? WHY!?!

Because the game requires me to.

No it does not, it only does if you don't plan properly.

So it's possible to take zero damage at all times?

[Ecmoose]

Maverick827 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

Volourn wrote...

Why would you do that? WHY!?!

Because the game requires me to.

No it does not, it only does if you don't plan properly.

So it's possible to take zero damage at all times?

No, but it should (theoretically) be possible to take little enough damage that it's almost negligible for all but the most intense encounters. As that is typically how these systems work. But you've ignored this every other time I've said it so I don't know why I'm repeating it. 

[Mr.House]

Maverick827 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

Volourn wrote...

Why would you do that? WHY!?!

Because the game requires me to.

No it does not, it only does if you don't plan properly.

So it's possible to take zero damage at all times?

Go prepared, use tactics well and plan, you won't take that much damage and should be fine before you have to return to base. It's not hard or even a new concept.

Modifié par Mr.House, 02 septembre 2013 - 11:43 .

[Volourn]

Plus, you'll have spells and potions available to heal yourself as well.

[Fast Jimmy]

Maverick827 wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

Volourn wrote...

Why would you do that? WHY!?!

Because the game requires me to.

No it does not, it only does if you don't plan properly.

So it's possible to take zero damage at all times?

Sylvius the Mad considers that he "loses" a fight if he winds up taking any damage, period. It's one of his biggest complaints in DA2 - that you are forced to be hit and that there is no statistical way to avoid getting hit and/or beig able to absorb a damage.

So we should assume it is should be theoretically possible to get though a fight without taking an ounce of damage. 

[mupp3tz]

Huh? Why would anyone ever think it's a good idea to take 0 damage in a game?

[Ryzaki]

Eh you tend to take zero damage if you're vastly overpowered for something. Nothing makes me smile more than seeing 0 0 0 0 0 as the poor low lvld sobs face my uber armored character who's killing them in one hit.

[cjones91]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

Huh? Why would anyone ever think it's a good idea to take 0 damage in a game?

What about when your character is stronger and you face really weak enemies like rats?They should'nt be able to hurt you at all especially you are wearing armor.

[Maverick827]

Ecmoose wrote...

No, but it should (theoretically) be possible to take little enough damage that it's almost negligible for all but the most intense encounters. As that is typically how these systems work. But you've ignored this every other time I've said it so I don't know why I'm repeating it. 

I haven't ignored it.  I've directly addressed that each individual encounter will likely be balanced fine.  But exploring, chaining dungeons and whatnot, is going to be a battle of attrition.  Attrition is typically not associated with fun.  So unless all damage is avoidable by "skill" (which is obviously not going to be the case), then exploring one area will directly impact my ability to explore another.  The remedy is to trek back to my keep.  Which is tedious, highly unnecessary, and quite honestly a perplexing design decision.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Sylvius the Mad considers that he "loses" a fight if he winds up taking any damage, period.

Slyvius the Mad is the quintessential outlier.  You're really doing yourself no favors in proving that this system isn't a masochistic relic by invoking him.

Modifié par Maverick827, 03 septembre 2013 - 12:07 .

[mupp3tz]

cjones91 wrote...

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

Huh? Why would anyone ever think it's a good idea to take 0 damage in a game?

What about when your character is stronger and you face really weak enemies like rats?They should'nt be able to hurt you at all especially you are wearing armor.

Well, yes, of course. But the way it's worded "0 damage at all times" suggests that the person just wants to be invisible the whole time and that it's a problem that it's not possible.

I don't get how that fits into the context of no hp regen as even with out it, you would still expect enemies to do damage. Otherwise, the game is severly broken.

Modifié par M U P P 3 T Z, 03 septembre 2013 - 12:11 .

[Aaleel]

Maverick827 wrote...

Ecmoose wrote...

No, but it should (theoretically) be possible to take little enough damage that it's almost negligible for all but the most intense encounters. As that is typically how these systems work. But you've ignored this every other time I've said it so I don't know why I'm repeating it. 

I haven't ignored it.  I've directly addressed that each individual encounter will likely be balanced fine.  But exploring, chaining dungeons and whatnot, is going to be a battle of attrition.  Attrition is typically not associated with fun.  So unless all damage is avoidable by "skill" (which is obviously not going to be the case), then exploring one area will directly impact my ability to explore another.  The remedy is to trek back to my keep.  Which is tedious, highly unnecessary, and quite honestly a perplexing design decision.

See this just goes to show how differently people look at things.

Because to me being able to attack any and everything moving, go into cave after cave and roam an entire large area without having to give any thought or care to your supplies or the condition of your party is a poor design decision. 

You should have to think if I go into this cave will I make it out, should I go back to the keep and restock first.  Is it worth the supplies to attack this random monster/animal?

Modifié par Aaleel, 03 septembre 2013 - 12:18 .

[Maverick827]

Aaleel wrote...

Because to me being able to attack any and everything moving, go into cave after cave and roam an entire large area without having to give any thought or care to your supplies or the condition of your party is a poor design decision. 

Please do not to insult people who don't like tedious gameplay by saying they don't like to "think."  There is nothing intelligent about being whittled down in health and having to run back to your keep at an annoying frequency because health does not regenerate.  There is nothing complicated in "am I maxed out on potions -> no -> run back to town."

Modifié par Maverick827, 03 septembre 2013 - 12:31 .

[Aaleel]

Maverick827 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Because to me being able to attack any and everything moving, go into cave after cave and roam an entire large area without having to give any thought or care to your supplies or the condition of your party is a poor design decision. 

Please do not to insult people who don't like tedious gameplay by saying they don't like to "think."  There is nothing intelligent about being whittled down in health and having to run back to your keep at an annoying frequency because health does not regenerate.  There is nothing complicated in "am I maxed out on potions -> no -> run back to town."

Please don't equate someone saying how they think a good should designed to them calling other people stupid.  What only you get to say how the game should be designed and everyone elses' opinions should be damned?

Modifié par Aaleel, 03 septembre 2013 - 12:37 .

[Maverick827]

Aaleel wrote...

Please don't equate someone saying how they think a good should designed to them calling other people stupid.  What only you get to say how the game should be designed and everyone elses' opinions should be damned?

I didn't say that at all.  If you'll notice, this thread is about a toggle, which is optional.

You did, however, say that this design choices was for players who really put "thought and care" into their character, party, condition, etc., which logically implies that those of us who want the opposite do the opposite (e.g. do not put thought and care into the game with regards to tactics and preparation).  Which is very much not true.

Modifié par Maverick827, 03 septembre 2013 - 12:43 .

[Aaleel]

Maverick827 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Please don't equate someone saying how they think a good should designed to them calling other people stupid.  What only you get to say how the game should be designed and everyone elses' opinions should be damned?

I didn't say that at all.  If you'll notice, this thread is about a toggle, which is optional.

You did, however, say that this design choices was for players who really put "thought and care" into their character, party, condition, etc., which logically implies that those of us who want the opposite do the opposite (e.g. do not put thought and care into the game with regards to tactics and preparation).  Which is very much not true.

But you've gone away from the original point of the thread.  You're talking directly to the feature as it being on.  Saying how tedious, and unneeded it is.  How it doesn't fit your style of play and what you want to do, chaining caves and such.  That's your opinion as it pertains to how you want to play.

All I did was give my opinion as it pertains to how I want to play.  I didn't come at you saying please don't say people who like this feature like grinding and needlessly wasting time did I?   

[DarthLaxian]

Mr.House wrote...
Go prepared, use tactics well and plan, you won't take that much damage and should be fine before you have to return to base. It's not hard or even a new concept.

that's my (and all who share my oppinion) problem:

the mechanic is so dowdy (hell, re-using it is grave-robbing and necromancy!) that it's not even funny anymore (there were enough reasons to retire this thing (and not enough good ones to continue using it - so why do it now?...it only stretches the content (and if they need that, then the game is probably worse then ME3 (or DA2)) and delays the player by destroying the flow!)

greetings LAX
ps: i compare it to driving a sports car (a really fancy one, like an Aston Martin) while having one foot on the breaks constantly (and having a hole in the gas-tank)...which is no fun (driving is what i would want, not breaking and re-fueling constantly!) at all!

Modifié par DarthLaxian, 03 septembre 2013 - 12:52 .

[Rylor Tormtor]

I sincerely doubt that this thread, in its meager couple days of existence, made Bioware change anything. More likely, this has been part of their specific design decision (the percentage 1 time heal after combat as part of the difficulty curve) from the beginning.

[Ecmoose]

Maverick827 wrote...

Ecmoose wrote...

No, but it should (theoretically) be possible to take little enough damage that it's almost negligible for all but the most intense encounters. As that is typically how these systems work. But you've ignored this every other time I've said it so I don't know why I'm repeating it. 

I haven't ignored it.  I've directly addressed that each individual encounter will likely be balanced fine.  But exploring, chaining dungeons and whatnot, is going to be a battle of attrition.  Attrition is typically not associated with fun.  So unless all damage is avoidable by "skill" (which is obviously not going to be the case), then exploring one area will directly impact my ability to explore another.  The remedy is to trek back to my keep.  Which is tedious, highly unnecessary, and quite honestly a perplexing design decision.

And yet my  response to your battle of attrition comment went unreplied, wherein  I explained that I wasn't speakin about single encounters but the entire scale of the game. BW has said that they want to encourage exploration. Yes, the very same type of exploration you've mentioned you like to do. Why would they encourage this and then put you in a situation that would obliterate your morale? 

You can continue to believe that you won't be able to chain dungeons, while I continue to believe that you can with a smart approach to combat, but the fact that your argument hasn't evolved despite many people pointing out valid arguments means you're just resigned to be unhappy.

[Ecmoose]

Maverick827 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Because to me being able to attack any and everything moving, go into cave after cave and roam an entire large area without having to give any thought or care to your supplies or the condition of your party is a poor design decision. 

Please do not to insult people who don't like tedious gameplay by saying they don't like to "think."  There is nothing intelligent about being whittled down in health and having to run back to your keep at an annoying frequency because health does not regenerate.  There is nothing complicated in "am I maxed out on potions -> no -> run back to town."

And therein you prove that you haven't even bothered to consider the other half and their opinion. You could say "I don't find anything fun in a desgin where encounters are not life or death" or "I don't find lengthy preperation fun" or even "I don't think trial and error is exciting".

Instead you've lumped us all in as people who enjoy "tedious gameplay" which I can assure you I do not. As I have stated many times before I have no intention of being in a situation where I have no potions and then high tail it back to camp, because I intend to figure out how to appropriately manage my rescources which will ensure I don't have frequent downtime or trips back to camp.

You'd rather have the game more action based, I'd rather it be more strategy, neither is bad, but it's not tedium I enjoy, so please stop saying as much. My version of tedium just happens to be different from yours.

Modifié par Ecmoose, 03 septembre 2013 - 01:18 .

[Maverick827]

Aaleel wrote...

But you've gone away from the original point of the thread.  You're talking directly to the feature as it being on.  Saying how tedious, and unneeded it is.  How it doesn't fit your style of play and what you want to do, chaining caves and such.  That's your opinion as it pertains to how you want to play. 

All I did was give my opinion as it pertains to how I want to play.  I didn't come at you saying please don't say people who like this feature like grinding and needlessly wasting time did I?    

My opinion is that there should be a toggle, so people can play how they like.  Your opinion is that it's fine the way it is because you feel that it is more intelligent gameplay and that you like intelligent gameplay and we don't.  Do you see the difference?

Ecmoose wrote...

W has said that they want to encourage exploration. Yes, the very same type of exploration you've mentioned you like to do. Why would they encourage this and then put you in a situation that would obliterate your morale?

I don't know why would they implement a feature that is categorically opposed to exploration if they intend for you to explore.  That's sort of what this thread is about.

but the fact that your argument hasn't evolved despite many people pointing out valid arguments means you're just resigned to be unhappy.

What valid arguments?  The majority of the opposition is comprised of "learn 2 play, I like it this way, this is how real RPGs are made!"

And I am quite content now that it has confirmed that health regen will be present on some settings.  It wil be awkward switching difficulty settings whenever I finish exploring a cave so that I can get back to full health for the next adventure, but it sure as hell will be quicker than running all the way back to my keep.  I'm still posting here just to find out why so many people are opposed to the option of health regen.

Ecmoose wrote...

And therein you prove that you haven't even bothered to consider the other half and their opinion. You could say "I don't find anything fun in a desgin where encounters are not life or death" or "I don't find lengthy preperation fun" or even "I don't think trial and error is exciting".

But none of those things are true.  I find "life and death" encounters fun.  I find lengthy preparation fun (I plan character and party builds weeks or months in advance, with spreadsheets).  I greatly enjoy trial and error.  I've said these things many times.

What I do not enjoy is tedius travels back to a "safe" zone to heal in between my adventures.

Instead you've lumped us all in as people who enjoy "tedious gameplay" which I can assure you I do not.

Then you sure are on the wrong side of this.

As I have stated many times before I have no intention of being in a situation where I have no potions and then high tail it back to camp, because I intend to figure out how to appropriately manage my rescources which will ensure I don't have frequent downtime or trips back to camp.

Good luck with that.  I don't trust that this system will allow for anything but tedious trips back to the keep no matter how well you "manage resources."  Not because I don't believe in BioWare (I'm one of the few who defended DA2 when it first came out), but just beacuse such things logically follow no out-of-combat health regen.  It just doesn't make any sense.

You'd rather have the game more action based

This is absolutely false.  How does out-of-combat health regen relate to action?

[Renmiri1]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Anyone else smile ear-to-ear reading people's complaints in this thread?

The idea of no health regen is MEANT to be hard. It is MEANT to scare you  

Meanie! <_<

Child please... I killed Yogg, Mimi, Algalon, Syndra, Lichie, Deathwing, Raggy all on HC mode. I solo level 90 dungeons.

This thing that you pause in the middle of combat to move your NPC ? Not scary.

Just annoying. Grinding like that to level up ? No one does that anymore. Not even the gold farmers 

PS: You want tactics ? Try being raid leader on a achievement run where you are giving instructions and positioning real people playing your healer, dps, tank, etc.. Try getting "Alone in the Darkness" at level 80 and 80's gear.

Do that and then talk to me about scary 

PS: If you are a tactics buff, watch the video. Ulduar was one of the best tactical WoW instances of all time. A pity now everyone is so OP at 90  people can even solo it or pay a good ranked player to take them in to get the achievement. Ulduar Ach used to mean a lot 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 03 septembre 2013 - 03:58 .

[Ecmoose]

Maverick827 wrote...


This is absolutely false.  How does out-of-combat health regen relate to action?

How can you even say that you enjoy trial and error, and preperation for combat if you won't even give the system an iota of consideration? You've outright said you don't believe this system can have any tactical benefit when it has in fact been proven in other games that it can. 

Good luck with that.  I don't trust that this system will allow for anything but tedious trips back to the keep no matter how well you "manage resources."  Not because I don't believe in BioWare (I'm one of the few who defended DA2 when it first came out), but just beacuse such things logically follow no out-of-combat health regen.  It just doesn't make any sense.

You not believeing that the system works doesn not suddenly discount the fact that it has worked before. Instead of giving any sort of thought to the contrary you assume that the system is going to fail simply because you do not like it and anytime someone says anything to the contrary you have responded with the same canned response. This system has worked in previous games and it has been proven that the right rotation or the proper resource management will shorten downtime. That's why it has lasted so long, it's something that people who enjoy tactical play look forward to.

As to out of gen combat, you have clearly stated that you want every encounter to be a life or death situation. You've said that you need to fight everything on screen. You want your health to regenerate out of combat so you can run in swinging everytime. Those are all marks of a combat oriented game. 

I don't even understand why you feel like you can't explore when it's been shown that most enemies will not even engage you until you've attacked them. It makes no sense.

And I still don't understand how everyone can jump to the conclusion that "a limit on potions" immediatley means "you'll never have enough potions".

And lastly, the fact that you believe this system will fail from the gate discounts your faith in Bioware to implement it correctly.

You have your toggle, it's a lower difficulty level that gives you more health after the fight,

If you really have to play everything on the hardest difficulty than step it up, learn the mechanics  and trust that the developers will reward your gameplay by not forcing you to constantly run back to camp unless you've made some seriously bad decisions.

Instead you've lumped us all in as people who enjoy "tedious gameplay" which I can assure you I do not.

Then you sure are on the wrong side of this.

And you sure have decided not to acknowledge that there is no "wrong" side. Instead you assume that anyone who disagrees with you is on the "wrong side". Whereas I have stated multiple times that health regen is a sound design, you continue to tell me I'm wrong for enjoying the opposite end of the spectrum. Whereas I defended your right to request a toggle when other people called you entitled, you again stated that I was just some guy who enjoys tedium, invalidating what I enjoy in games.

Thanks for proving to me what BSN really is.

Modifié par Ecmoose, 03 septembre 2013 - 05:10 .

[Trafalgar-Law]

Ecmoose wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...


This is absolutely false.  How does out-of-combat health regen relate to action?

How can you even say that you enjoy trial and error, and preperation for combat if you won't even give the system an iota of consideration? You've outright said you don't believe this system can have any tactical benefit when it has in fact been proven in other games that it can. 

Good luck with that.  I don't trust that this system will allow for anything but tedious trips back to the keep no matter how well you "manage resources."  Not because I don't believe in BioWare (I'm one of the few who defended DA2 when it first came out), but just beacuse such things logically follow no out-of-combat health regen.  It just doesn't make any sense.

You not believeing that the system works doesn not suddenly discount the fact that it has worked before. Instead of giving any sort of thought to the contrary you assume that the system is going to fail simply because you do not like it and anytime someone says anything to the contrary you have responded with the same canned response. This system has worked in previous games and it has been proven that the right rotation or the proper resource management will shorten downtime. That's why it has lasted so long, it's something that people who enjoy tactical play look forward to.

As to out of gen combat, you have clearly stated that you want every encounter to be a life or death situation. You've said that you need to fight everything on screen. You want your health to regenerate out of combat so you can run in swinging everytime. Those are all marks of a combat oriented game. 

I don't even understand why you feel like you can't explore when it's been shown that most enemies will not even engage you until you've attacked them. It makes no sense.

And I still don't understand how everyone can jump to the conclusion that "a limit on potions" immediatley means "you'll never have enough potions".

And lastly, the fact that you believe this system will fail from the gate discounts your faith in Bioware to implement it correctly.

You have your toggle, it's a lower difficulty level that gives you more health after the fight,

If you really have to play everything on the hardest difficulty than step it up, learn the mechanics  and trust that the developers will reward your gameplay by not forcing you to constantly run back to camp unless you've made some seriously bad decisions.

Instead you've lumped us all in as people who enjoy "tedious gameplay" which I can assure you I do not.

Then you sure are on the wrong side of this.

And you sure have decided not to acknowledge that there is no "wrong" side. Instead you assume that anyone who disagrees with you is on the "wrong side". Whereas I have stated multiple times that health regen is a sound design, you continue to tell me I'm wrong for enjoying the opposite end of the spectrum. Whereas I defended your right to request a toggle when other people called you entitled, you again stated that I was just some guy who enjoys tedium, invalidating what I enjoy in games.

Thanks for proving to me what BSN really is.

Yeah . . .

I've read your posts throughout this thread and have to massively disagree with you. Your position is essentially that there should be no health regen toggle because not having one would force players to think strategically-----to "manages resources" and whatnot. That this would force players to play smarter.  Your suggestions simply result in making the game boring.
:

1) Cheap Enemies. Imagine playing through Dragon Age 2 only to have to worry about running all the way back to your mansion every time an insanely cheap enemy (assassin/Rage Demon/ Blood Mage) one-shotted your party in an insanely unpredictable fashion. You can "manage your resources", but when you have insanely cheap enemies like that, you're going to losing massive chunks of health one way or another.

2) Unpredictable environment. In addition to enemies, we've had to worry about traps throughout each DA game. In this game, we also seem to have to worry about toxic gas covering wide areas. No amount of "resource management" is going to overcome the threats produced the environment unless you've played through the entire at least once.

3) Playing smarter does not necessarily translate to having more fun. Consider Dragon Age Origins. As you may be aware, there are number of ways to exploit the combat system. Through abusing taunt/forcefield or stealth/arrow of slaying, you could easily clear most of the game possibly without ever even receiving damage, much less getting killed.  In DA2, you can easily solo the entire the game through kiting. Abusing the game mechanics and the poor enemy A.I is indisputably the smartest way to play the game. Nonetheless, it is simaltaneously the most boring way to play the game.

4) There are better alternatives. Personally, I think your idea of "resource management" leads to a lot of tedium. Even you yourself are going to experience this tedium as you, through trial and error, find yourself traveling back to the base again and again as you try to think of ways to "manage your resources" better. Sure, the Devs could do that, but why not instead focus on a solution that doesn't risk us having to waste valuable time backtracking?  How about improving enemy A.i? Making them more challenging? More adaptive to my tactics? Problem solved and no risk of players getting frustrated out of having to waste time backtracking when they screw up even or something random happens.

5) Difficulty vs Tedium. There is a difference. You can make a game challenging and you can make a game boring. Punishing players who don't "manage their resources" correctly by forcing them to backtrack ginormaous distances leads to a lot of tedium. Moreover, this idea of managing your resources to the point of somehow sustaining negligible damage in every fight forces you to use strategies that simply aren't fun.

Now your response to this is that we should trust the developors and hope for the best.

And lastly, the fact that you believe this system will fail from the
gate discounts your faith in Bioware to implement it correctly.

Considering the failings of the previous game, his suspicion is well justified. Your blind faith in the developers is unwise. I suggest you wait until you see some reviews before deciding that they know what they're doing.

Now sure, after 1 or 2 playthroughs, I can probably devise some tactics that prevent me from needing health regen, but will I even get past the first playthrough if I'm bored out of my mind having to backtrack to my basecamp every time I insuffiencly "manage my resources?"

[cJohnOne]

But in the video they only needed 1 health potion. It's an assumption that the damage you take will out strip your resources and that this can't be balanced. If this is the case there isn't any tedium to speak of.

Now I want a toggle so that I can have no health regeneration on normal so I get the supply restrictions that I assume that you get. Which I assume will be part in making a fun game. On the other hand exploration should be easier now that health regenerates part of the way.

Modifié par cJohnOne, 04 septembre 2013 - 04:39 .