526 réponses à ce sujet

[Dave of Canada]

Maverick827 wrote...

I'm not talking about retreating in the middle of combat, though.  I'm asking what value is there in running back through a dungeon after combat and then back to where you were to heal up versus simply just healing up naturally?

Because natural healing doesn't use your resources. Prevention measures can be implemented to reduce traveling back and forth, requiring only one to prepare themselves. Underpreparing should result in death.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 06 septembre 2013 - 09:29 .

[Taleroth]

Maverick827 wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

It's in response to the bolded. If you have to retreat it usually means you're avoiding defeat from either overpowered enemies or being under supplied.

I'm not talking about retreating in the middle of combat, though.  I'm asking what value is there in running back through a dungeon after combat and then back to where you were to heal up versus simply just healing up naturally?

A strategic consideration of resources. If you're having to run back in the middle of a dungeon, you're not handling resources well or are facing foes too strong for you.

Modifié par Taleroth, 06 septembre 2013 - 09:36 .

[Maverick827]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Because natural healing doesn't use your resources.

Neither does backtracking to a safe zone.

Prevention measures can be implemented to reuce traveling back and forth, requiring only one to prepare themselves. Underpreparing should result in death.

What are these prevention measures?  Also, I'm not talking about "underpreparing" for a single dungeon.  I'm talking about the inevitable battle of attrition while exploring, regardless of how well one has prepared.  It might as well be a clock that counts down in the corner of your screen that will kill you once it reaches zero unless you run all the way back to a safe zone (and yes, I realize some of you would for whatever reason love that as well).

Taleroth wrote...
A strategic consideration of resources. If you're having to run back in the middle of a dungeon, you're not handling resources well or are facing foes too strong for you.

Again, not exactly.  I could be making my way through dungeons that I'm already much too strong for, but eventually I'll need to head back to the keep.  In Skyrim, for instance, I can take a few hours to whittle down all of the miscelaneous "Red Eagle" and "Lost Legends" type of quests, since I like to keep a clean-ish quest log.  It would be exceedingly tedious if I had to physically run back to Whiterun in between every two or three dungeons just to heal up, because even though I left with a full party and full potions, it is unarguably inevitable that I will need to rest eventually.

[Taleroth]

Maverick827 wrote...

It would be exceedingly tedious if I had to physically run back to Whiterun in between every two or three dungeons just to heal up, because even though I left with a full party and full potions, it is unarguably inevitable that I will need to rest eventually.

And running crap quests like Red Eagle is tedious too.

Why do you think you'd have to go all the way to one single keep to rest? What, you think Orlais is the only place to rest?

[Ecmoose]

Maverick827 wrote...

Again, not exactly.  I could be making my way through dungeons that I'm already much too strong for, but eventually I'll need to head back to the keep.  In Skyrim, for instance, I can take a few hours to whittle down all of the miscelaneous "Red Eagle" and "Lost Legends" type of quests, since I like to keep a clean-ish quest log.  It would be exceedingly tedious if I had to physically run back to Whiterun in between every two or three dungeons just to heal up, because even though I left with a full party and full potions, it is unarguably inevitable that I will need to rest eventually.

If you're going through a dungeon that your much too strong for, and and end up low on health with no more potions...well that just doesn't make sense. It sounds like you weren't much to strong for it. So that's an odd example. Even if you're chaining low level dungeons it doesn't make sens that you would be using healing rescources that often.

Modifié par Ecmoose, 06 septembre 2013 - 10:50 .

[Maverick827]

Taleroth wrote...

 And running crap quests like Red Eagle is tedious too.

I've done then twenty times each, so yeah.  But the first couple of times, they're not any more tedious than any other quest in that game.

Why do you think you'd have to go all the way to one single keep to rest?

I don't?  But even if you have to run back to the keep of whatever region your in, that's still a long run.

Ecmoose wrote...

If you're going through a dungeon that your much too strong for, and and end up low on health with no more potions...well that just doesn't make sense.

This is not the scenario I presented.

Even if you're chaining low level dungeons it doesn't make sens that you would be using healing rescources that often.

How doesn't it make sense?  Unless DA:I pulls an MMO and has "gray" enemies be literally unable to hit you, running through multiple low level dungeons will chip away at your health and running through multiple similar level dungeons undoubtedly will.

[Ecmoose]

double post

Modifié par Ecmoose, 06 septembre 2013 - 11:38 .

[Ecmoose]

Maverick827 wrote...

This is not the scenario I presented.

That's exactly the situation you presented.: 

Maverick827 wrote...

Again, not exactly.  I could be making my way through dungeons that I'm already much too strong for, but eventually I'll need to head back to the keep. 

Maverick827 wrote...

Even if you're chaining low level dungeons it doesn't make sens that you would be using healing rescources that often.

How doesn't it make sense?  Unless DA:I pulls an MMO and has "gray" enemies be literally unable to hit you, running through multiple low level dungeons will chip away at your health and running through multiple similar level dungeons undoubtedly will.

Yes they will chip away at your health, but at no point should you be low on health so frequently that you have used all of your healing rescources. Not if you're going through a dungeon (or multiple dungeons) you've outleveled. With scaling enemies that makes sense, but in a game where your enemeis do not scale to you, you will eventually have too much health, armor, evasion stats for lower level enemies to significantly hurt you. MMO's didn't create grey mobs, they just color coded them to make it easier for people to identify. 

Maverick827 wrote...
 It would be exceedingly tedious if I had to physically run back to Whiterun in between every two or three dungeons just to heal up, because even though I left with a full party and full potions, it is unarguably inevitable that I will need to rest eventually.

You're arguing for infinite sustainability wich is ridiculous. Why design towns, quest hubs, merchants if you're never going to go back to town. In any game you will inevitably have to go back to base. Otherwise designing quest hubs is a complete waste of rescources and quests should just drop themselves in your log with barely any explanation.

Modifié par Ecmoose, 06 septembre 2013 - 11:36 .

[Marbazoid]

I did cringe a bit when Mike mentioned "if you want that xp or not" about the wolves comment.

I was hoping they would take it a step further and liberate xp gain from farming mobs and just limit it to non-combat exploration actions/persuasion and quest completion. Only because combat is assumed and the whole game is built around it, it often isn't a choice.

But I suppose removing xp from kills would be even more controversial.

[Maverick827]

Ecmoose wrote...


That's exactly the situation you presented.:

Yeah, dungeons.  Multiple.  You tried to imply that I'm worried about going into one lower level dungeon and coming out almost dead, which would be quite ridiculous.

Yes they will chip away at your health, but at no point should you be low on health so frequently that you have used all of your healing rescources.

"Frequently" depends on the person, I guess.  Having to go back and heal and interrupt my dungeon crawling, exploring, and questing, even once, even if I've done ten in a row, is "too frequent" to me.

You're arguing for infinite sustainability wich is ridiculous.

It's what the series has traditionally had and what the major and successful RPG releases of the past few years have had, so no, it is not ridiculous.

Why design towns, quest hubs, merchants if you're never going to go back to town. In any game you will inevitably have to go back to base.

Yes, but I want to go back on my terms.  I get to choose when I'm no longer willing to throw away items in my inventory to make room for new ones, when everything in there is valuable enough for me to head back.  I get to choose when I go back to turn quests in - one at a time as I complete them, or in a batch all at once.  I get to choose when I go to train up myself or my party; perhaps I just got to level 28 and unlocked that spell I've been waiting since level 1 to get.  Yeah, I'm going back to train that now.  Or maybe I can live without it for a bit longer, so I continue the roll I'm on, hitting up all of the dungeons in a certain zone.

Keep in mind, as far as I'm concerned, I've alrady heard what I needed to hear: I can get health regen by temporarily turning the difficulty down.  And I'm still holding out for a console command or something like that.  I'm merely trying to explain why I (we) don't like the no-health-regen thing, because some people arguing in favor of it are just baffled as to how someone couldn't be looking forward to it.

Modifié par Maverick827, 07 septembre 2013 - 12:46 .

[Maria Caliban]

Maverick827 wrote...
How doesn't it make sense?  Unless DA:I pulls an MMO and has "gray" enemies be literally unable to hit you, running through multiple low level dungeons will chip away at your health and running through multiple similar level dungeons undoubtedly will.

You're forgetting that your health pops up to a certain level after each combat.

[Maverick827]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...
How doesn't it make sense?  Unless DA:I pulls an MMO and has "gray" enemies be literally unable to hit you, running through multiple low level dungeons will chip away at your health and running through multiple similar level dungeons undoubtedly will.

You're forgetting that your health pops up to a certain level after each combat.

True, though I doubt there will be any threshold on Nightmare.

[Ecmoose]

Maverick827 wrote...

1)Yeah, dungeons.  Multiple.  You tried to imply that I'm worried about going into one lower level dungeon and coming out almost dead, which would be quite ridiculous.

2)"Frequently" depends on the person, I guess.  Having to go back and heal and interrupt my dungeon crawling, exploring, and questing, even once, even if I've done ten in a row, is "too frequent" to me.

3)It's what the series has traditionally had and what the major and successful RPG releases of the past few years have had, so no, it is not ridiculous.

4)Yes, but I want to go back on my terms.  I get to choose when I'm no longer willing to throw away items in my inventory to make room for new ones, when everything in there is valuable enough for me to head back.  I get to choose when I go back to turn quests in - one at a time as I complete them, or in a batch all at once.  I get to choose when I go to train up myself or my party; perhaps I just got to level 28 and unlocked that spell I've been waiting since level 1 to get.  Yeah, I'm going back to train that now.  Or maybe I can live without it for a bit longer, so I continue the roll I'm on, hitting up all of the dungeons in a certain zone.

5)Keep in mind, as far as I'm concerned, I've alrady heard what I needed to hear: I can get health regen by temporarily turning the difficulty down.  And I'm still holding out for a console command or something like that.  I'm merely trying to explain why I (we) don't like the no-health-regen thing, because some people arguing in favor of it are just baffled as to how someone couldn't be looking forward to it.

1)I included your "multiple dungeon crawl" scenario in my explanation.

2) I said you shouldn't have to use up all your healing rescources on low level dungeons, including potions and healing spells. Nowhere did I even mention returning to base because it wasn't what I was refering to.

3)DragonAge (Origins or 2) did not have infinite sustainability, the injury system and frequency of injury kits neccesitated smarter combat or buying more kits.

4) You didn't say "I want to go back on my terms" you specificaly complained that AT SOME POINT you would have to return to base. Perhaps I misinterpreted the statement and if so, I'm sorry, but that's not how you wrote it.

5) Because the complaints about a no health regeneration system don't make any sense beyond "I expect Bioware to poorly implement this system". All the complaints have been addressed in the long history of RPGs. Static health was used continually in the genre because it worked, not because it was an archaic restriction based on developmental systems. Not liking it makes sense, complaining about issues that are totally unsubstantiated by what little information we know, does not.

[Realmzmaster]

Marbazoid wrote...

I did cringe a bit when Mike mentioned "if you want that xp or not" about the wolves comment.

I was hoping they would take it a step further and liberate xp gain from farming mobs and just limit it to non-combat exploration actions/persuasion and quest completion. Only because combat is assumed and the whole game is built around it, it often isn't a choice.

But I suppose removing xp from kills would be even more controversial.

Actually I would welcome a system where xp is based on quest completion and the only reward from combat would be gold, weapons, armor or other valuables. I would like to see quests completion being done in multiple ways including stealth. persuasion, and diplomacy or a combination.

[Ecmoose]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Marbazoid wrote...

I did cringe a bit when Mike mentioned "if you want that xp or not" about the wolves comment.

I was hoping they would take it a step further and liberate xp gain from farming mobs and just limit it to non-combat exploration actions/persuasion and quest completion. Only because combat is assumed and the whole game is built around it, it often isn't a choice.

But I suppose removing xp from kills would be even more controversial.

Actually I would welcome a system where xp is based on quest completion and the only reward from combat would be gold, weapons, armor or other valuables. I would like to see quests completion being done in multiple ways including stealth. persuasion, and diplomacy or a combination.

I would buy that game in a heartbeat.

[Taura-Tierno]

Gaining equal amounts of XP for completing quests by stealth/diplomacy would be great. Sneaking around a battle or distracting the enemy should gain you experience as well.

But XP shouldn't be removed from combat, because that wouldn't make sense either. Isn't XP supposed to represent getting better? You do get better at fighting, from fighting.

[cJohnOne]

But if experience was removed from combat it wouldn't be like Diablo and D&D. I like games with that feature. Not familiar with any other way so am very leery of them

[Realmzmaster]

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Gaining equal amounts of XP for completing quests by stealth/diplomacy would be great. Sneaking around a battle or distracting the enemy should gain you experience as well.

But XP shouldn't be removed from combat, because that wouldn't make sense either. Isn't XP supposed to represent getting better? You do get better at fighting, from fighting.

 I would not give experience for using the skill, but only for quest completion. Successful use of the skill could be measured. The character's rank in the skill would increase with each attempted use in an actual quest situation. Quests situations should be designed to be solved in different ways. If a gamer wants the character to solve the quest situation by fighting then the rank in fighting skill would increase. If the character uses stealth that skill will increase etc.

[Ecmoose]

cJohnOne wrote...

But if experience was removed from combat it wouldn't be like Diablo and D&D. I like games with that feature. Not familiar with any other way so am very leery of them

Actually in DnD there is a system to award players experience for succesfully circumventing a combat situation. Experience is often based on the difficulty of the enemy in question and you gain XP my defeating them, but "defeat" does not exclusively mean "fight".

[Marbazoid]

Yea, I didn't mean to veer off topic. XP from kills is very old school, but I find that xp from kills encourages the completionist in me to seek out fights to maximize xp, sometimes in conflict with the type of character I set out to roleplay.

I suppose that is more an issue with how I play and not the game (this sort of solution is protecting the player from the game). But it's a liberating experience when I know I can play the game according to the character I have in mind, without compromising combat effectiveness (again, this is an issue because of how combat is forced on the player, it often isn't optional). If combat was always optional with xp granted for alternative paths/soloutions, xp from kills wouldn't bother me at all.

But I'm really excited about the non-regenerating health, I think if it's done well, it will add a much needed feeling of "adventure" to the game.

Modifié par Marbazoid, 08 septembre 2013 - 02:20 .

[DarthLaxian]

Ecmoose wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

Again, not exactly.  I could be making my way through dungeons that I'm already much too strong for, but eventually I'll need to head back to the keep.  In Skyrim, for instance, I can take a few hours to whittle down all of the miscelaneous "Red Eagle" and "Lost Legends" type of quests, since I like to keep a clean-ish quest log.  It would be exceedingly tedious if I had to physically run back to Whiterun in between every two or three dungeons just to heal up, because even though I left with a full party and full potions, it is unarguably inevitable that I will need to rest eventually.

If you're going through a dungeon that your much too strong for, and and end up low on health with no more potions...well that just doesn't make sense. It sounds like you weren't much to strong for it. So that's an odd example. Even if you're chaining low level dungeons it doesn't make sens that you would be using healing rescources that often.

well, i don't know if you did play say world of warcraf, but this situation can happen, when you do a low-level-dungeon-run (while taking a low-level-character along for XP and Equipment) - those enemies are not a danger to a high-level-character, but in masses they still bring your health down (and if you can't counter heal or destroy them fast enough (you can of course controll how many you pull, but that's another matter) you still die - now to use the example in the DA-Universe, you push through a Dungeon, the enemies are no real danger, but you still take hits, you still lose health...now in DA:O or DA2 that would not be a problem (health-regeneration!) - but in DA:I it will be...and while it may not be for one dungeon or area, who says i want to return to base - like good little punk - after every dungeon or area?...i might want to press on, but i can't now because potions are gone and so i am forced to interrupt my game-flow needlessly!....bah!

greetings LAX

[Ecmoose]

DarthLaxian wrote...

Ecmoose wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

Again, not exactly.  I could be making my way through dungeons that I'm already much too strong for, but eventually I'll need to head back to the keep.  In Skyrim, for instance, I can take a few hours to whittle down all of the miscelaneous "Red Eagle" and "Lost Legends" type of quests, since I like to keep a clean-ish quest log.  It would be exceedingly tedious if I had to physically run back to Whiterun in between every two or three dungeons just to heal up, because even though I left with a full party and full potions, it is unarguably inevitable that I will need to rest eventually.

If you're going through a dungeon that your much too strong for, and and end up low on health with no more potions...well that just doesn't make sense. It sounds like you weren't much to strong for it. So that's an odd example. Even if you're chaining low level dungeons it doesn't make sens that you would be using healing rescources that often.

well, i don't know if you did play say world of warcraf, but this situation can happen, when you do a low-level-dungeon-run (while taking a low-level-character along for XP and Equipment) - those enemies are not a danger to a high-level-character, but in masses they still bring your health down (and if you can't counter heal or destroy them fast enough (you can of course controll how many you pull, but that's another matter) you still die - now to use the example in the DA-Universe, you push through a Dungeon, the enemies are no real danger, but you still take hits, you still lose health...now in DA:O or DA2 that would not be a problem (health-regeneration!) - but in DA:I it will be...and while it may not be for one dungeon or area, who says i want to return to base - like good little punk - after every dungeon or area?...i might want to press on, but i can't now because potions are gone and so i am forced to interrupt my game-flow needlessly!....bah!

greetings LAX

Played WoW for 7 years and definitely died in my fair share of lower dungeons because of unwise pulls. But that's the thing, you die because you bite off more than you can chew, that's a decision you make as a player and it causes an annoying corpse run and some armor damage. However that goes right in line with what they said about wanting the player to have to make decisions like that. If you run into a dungeon and grab a ton of enemies or pull some and get ambushed by a patrol, thats a rash decision that *should* (as part of this specific game design) end in a run back to camp. 

If you however play according to the design structure it shouldn't be punishing you with frequent returns to base or camp.

[Taura-Tierno]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Taura-Tierno wrote...

Gaining equal amounts of XP for completing quests by stealth/diplomacy would be great. Sneaking around a battle or distracting the enemy should gain you experience as well.

But XP shouldn't be removed from combat, because that wouldn't make sense either. Isn't XP supposed to represent getting better? You do get better at fighting, from fighting.

 I would not give experience for using the skill, but only for quest completion. Successful use of the skill could be measured. The character's rank in the skill would increase with each attempted use in an actual quest situation. Quests situations should be designed to be solved in different ways. If a gamer wants the character to solve the quest situation by fighting then the rank in fighting skill would increase. If the character uses stealth that skill will increase etc.

That's pretty much how they did it in Skyrim. 

[Lanavis]

Toggling should be easy. Just have it with easy mode (like how friendly fire is exclusive to higher modes) and then give the rest of the modes no health regen.

[Ecmoose]

Lanavis wrote...

Toggling should be easy. Just have it with easy mode (like how friendly fire is exclusive to higher modes) and then give the rest of the modes no health regen.

That's roughly what they said they'll be doing. Each mode will have a certain threshold of healing after combat.