526 réponses à ce sujet

[Ecmoose]

cjones91 wrote...

Why do you care if he wants a balanced form of health regen?In fact how is no health regen supposed to make the game more challenging?

I don't care if he wants a balanced for of health regen, and if that's what he was asking for my argument would be different. He said he likes a challenge and he wants a game where every single battle is difficult. My point was that BW has already made the decision not to include Health Regen, so their game is balanced around it. So, the only way to give OP the challenge he wants would be to rebalance the game which is highly unlikely. 

No health regen makes the game more challenging because you don't want to be caught in the middle of a territory, low on health, with no way to recover.

Health regen makes the game more challenging by creating a life or death situation in every battle. 

Both have their merits, I prefer the first personally but enjoy the second as well, my over all point however is that if the OP gets his Health Regen toggle, it's only going to make the game less challenging then he desires.

[Maverick827]

You say you like challenge? Then embrace it. Adding health regen would take away challenge from any but the strongest enemies in the game, which makes everything else a grind.  So now instead of the tediousnous of revisting content you missed, you'll be slogging through boring encounters instead. 

I suppose you have a point.  If BioWare intends part of the difficulty of a Dragon encounter to factor in the 10 Drakes you had to go through to get to it, and my health regenerates, then I will effectively be making the fight easier by going into it with full health and full potions.  However, if I had to make the choice, I'd rather have the option of health regeneration, and here's why:

Let's say I'm on my way to kill the Dragon we saw in the PAX video.  I've gotten up to a level where I think I have a chance, I've stockpiled my consumables and I've got what I believe is the best party for the job.  On my way, I pass by a cave I've never seen before.  Without the option to turn on health regeneration, if I want to explore that cave, I either need to remember to come back later or I need to clear it now, head back to my keep, and then head back out to the Dragon (potentially finding more and more areas of interest along the way, and having to do the same for each).

But if I could enter the cave, clear it out, leave, and turn on health regeneration in the game setting menu, then I could easily turn it back off once I've reached the Dragon.  Now the only content I'm missing is running back to my keep and back to the Dragon, e.g. padding.

Or, if I were you, I could leave it off all the time.

Or, if I were someone who didn't care about the challenge, I could leave it on all the time.

Why is there a problem?

Modifié par Maverick827, 02 septembre 2013 - 04:47 .

[Wompoo]

Zevais wrote...

I don't need to be racing back to camp to "recharge my batteries" every other battle; it is simply a waste of time. No health regeneration is a relic for dinosaurs. Having no easy way to regain health when I am just exploring has been a nail in the coffin when I was borderline on a game; I have played demos and that ultimately made me decide to leave the game behind.

Hardly a dinosaur and regen is more of a crutch or a disgusting excuse for a game like GW2 and other no healer zerg based games out there... so there is no regen, suck it up and play within the games mechanics (which by the way we really don't know).  There is "nothing" difficult about DA:O or DA2, normal or nightmare. Use your potions wisely, plan ahead, use tactics and bring along a healing spec'ed mage (if you don't want a mage healer and only want a full dps group, then you deserve to die over and over again).


So you'll quit or not buy the game because you want an easy mode no consequence gaming experience. Anything that makes a game feel more intense and brings back a sense of accomplishment when playing a game is welcome (yes the game should reward those who play smart and well). Health not regening affects everyone Mage Rogue and warrior alike... and for a change you must now way up the cost/benefits of attacking anything in sight, fast regen means zero cost outside of a short retreat and away you go again taking on more then you should be able to. If a mage's mana does not regen they are stuck on auto attack and eventual death; if a rogues or Warriors stamina does not regen they are stuck on auto attack and eventual death... health is now a resource, learn to manage it.

[Degenerate Rakia Time]

There will be a health regen toggle, its called bringing a healer


but hey, i'll be playing on easy so health regen wont really bother me, and if it does ill just cheat 

Modifié par Rakia Time, 02 septembre 2013 - 04:51 .

[Archereon]

cjones91 wrote...

Archereon wrote...

Guys, seriously, you are almost certainly going to be able to faceroll your way through this game on the lowest difficulties in spite of the lack of health regeneration,, so don't worry,, you''ll be able to experience the entire story. While I'd prefer having only one save with regular forced autosaves and manual saves making you quit the game, no mana regeneration, and enemies respawning when you left an area to restock, I understand not everyone likes that level of resource management, even if I feel they're often misinformed about the tedium of systems like those vs the ones that currently exist.

Wait a minute..you want forced auto saves with manuel saves that make the player quit the game?F*ck that crap, I'll take no health regen over that any day.

In my opinion, the ability to save scum more or less invalidates any real choice and consequence, so it should be discouraged as much as possible in games emphasizing them. Of course, many people disagree with this, and I certainly like to play around without consequences in games like Dwarf Fortress sometimes, so at most I'd want that to be an optional hardcore mode ala the new XCOM's ironman mode.

[TheBlackBaron]

No. If the BSN has taught me anything, it's that toggles are racist or sexist or something.

[Ecmoose]

Maverick827 wrote...

You say you like challenge? Then embrace it. Adding health regen would take away challenge from any but the strongest enemies in the game, which makes everything else a grind.  So now instead of the tediousnous of revisting content you missed, you'll be slogging through boring encounters instead. 

I suppose you have a point.  If BioWare intends part of the difficulty of a Dragon encounter to factor in the 10 Drakes you had to go through to get to it, and my health regenerates, then I will effectively be making the fight easier by going into it with full health and full potions.  However, if I had to make the choice, I'd rather have the option of health regeneration, and here's why:

Let's say I'm on my way to kill the Dragon we saw in the PAX video.  I've gotten up to a level where I think I have a chance, I've stockpiled my consumables and I've got what I believe is the best party for the job.  On my way, I pass by a cave I've never seen before.  Without the option to turn on health regeneration, if I want to explore that cave, I either need to remember to come back later or I need to clear it now, head back to my keep, and then head back out to the Dragon (potentially finding more and more areas of interest along the way, and having to do the same for each).

But if I could enter the cave, clear it out, leave, and turn on health regeneration in the game setting menu, then I could easily turn it back off once I've reached the Dragon.  Now the only content I'm missing is running back to my keep and back to the Dragon, e.g. padding.

Or, if I were you, I could leave it off all the time.

Or, if I were someone who didn't care about the challenge, I could leave it on all the time.

Why is there a problem?

It's a problem because it detracts from the way BW wants the game played. 

I play games of all types. I love DAO, hell I even liked DA2 (not as much, but I'm not one of the haters either). I don't think health regen in a game is inherently a bad idea. I do however believe that if a team of developers have made a decision, then that is how the game should be played. It's the experience they want you to have and they've taken pains to make sure it works. Instead of giving them the benfit of the doubt, players are up in arms and demanding a way out before seeing if it's really as big a hassle as it sounds to them.

I understand what you're saying about that cave before the dragon. And in that situation I'd be in the cave before I even finished thinking about it. Maybe I'd die in there, or maybe I'd pull of some sound tactics with a competent healer and come back out fresh faced and ready to raid, but for me that's part of the excitement.

Modifié par Ecmoose, 02 septembre 2013 - 04:56 .

[cjones91]

Archereon wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Archereon wrote...

Guys, seriously, you are almost certainly going to be able to faceroll your way through this game on the lowest difficulties in spite of the lack of health regeneration,, so don't worry,, you''ll be able to experience the entire story. While I'd prefer having only one save with regular forced autosaves and manual saves making you quit the game, no mana regeneration, and enemies respawning when you left an area to restock, I understand not everyone likes that level of resource management, even if I feel they're often misinformed about the tedium of systems like those vs the ones that currently exist.

Wait a minute..you want forced auto saves with manuel saves that make the player quit the game?F*ck that crap, I'll take no health regen over that any day.

In my opinion, the ability to save scum more or less invalidates any real choice and consequence, so it should be discouraged as much as possible in games emphasizing them. Of course, many people disagree with this, and I certainly like to play around without consequences in games like Dwarf Fortress sometimes, so at most I'd want that to be an optional hardcore mode ala the new XCOM's ironman mode.

I've heard this same argument for Splintercell:Blacklist and my reaction was still the same:Who cares if people want to save scum since it does'nt effect how you play.If it was part of a higher difficulty mode then I'm fine with it,but some people want to dictate how others play their single player games.

[Biotic Sage]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

No. If the BSN has taught me anything, it's that toggles are racist or sexist or something.

By saying the BSN "taught" you something implies that you "learned" something, and thus "know" something.  And considering your profile pic, it's quite obvious that you know nothing so your entire statement must be a lie.

That's just logic, yo.

[SlottsMachine]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

No. If the BSN has taught me anything, it's that toggles are racist or sexist or something.

Yes, but a toggle represents compromise. **** that!

[Archereon]

@cjones1: Hence I'd suggest that something like that should, at most, be an optional hardcore mode for people who want to minimize their ability to savescum. Because honestly, on PCs, it's really easy to get around hardcore mode stuff by backing up saves and/or force quitting the game if something goes wrong. Unless it's cloud stored of course, but always online tends to be a big no-no.

Modifié par Archereon, 02 septembre 2013 - 05:00 .

[DaringMoosejaw]

I think you guys that are militantly against health regen (saying stuff like, 'If you don't like it, DON'T PLAY ANY RPGS EVER AGAIN' - holy ****, buddy, that is a ridiculously narcissistic point of view that your personal form of enjoyment is so superior to theirs that they need to be EJECTED from even being able to like the games and give their opinion on it. Christ.) are a bit blinded by nostalgia goggles.

So, no health regen. You need to go back to base. I'm out there, I see a cave I want to explore, but I'm low on health. So I travel back to base, re-heal and enter the cave.

What changed there so dramatically on the difficulty scale? Instead of simply going in because my health regenned, I had to make a round-trip back to base. Was that difficult? No. Was it time-consuming? Sure. Are you guys proclaiming that you're experts at going back to bases and other people just can't bear with the challenge of doing so? I doubt it.

They may as well let you heal by putting up a loading screen that forces you to listen to Barry Manilow songs for 2-3 minutes. It'd be exactly the same thing in practicality, but I can promise you nobody would like it because they'd think it was stupid.

The only argument I can see for this is what another guy said in the thread, which is if you leave an area all the enemies respawn. That'd mean you'd have to take each area on as a fresh encounter, and leaving would essentially 'reset the level' and make you try again. Now I don't see that as fun myself because I'd rather them add difficulty in different areas than worry about resource management - which I find far less fun than advancing the plot or killing big beasties - but I can certainly understand it and I'll acknowledge that it's more challenging.

If they don't do that, though? The system exists purely for tediousness. I'm wagering folks are overreacting - I doubt they're going to go that whole-hog on the non-regenerating health thing and there's still a year to develop so I'm sure there will be far more methods to heal up than having to run back to a base each time. Having a system in there just because it reminds you of your childhood CRPG games is pointless unless all the other gameplay designs in there supporting it come back as well.

[Thunderfox]

Ecmoose wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

You say you like challenge? Then embrace it. Adding health regen would take away challenge from any but the strongest enemies in the game, which makes everything else a grind.  So now instead of the tediousnous of revisting content you missed, you'll be slogging through boring encounters instead. 

I suppose you have a point.  If BioWare intends part of the difficulty of a Dragon encounter to factor in the 10 Drakes you had to go through to get to it, and my health regenerates, then I will effectively be making the fight easier by going into it with full health and full potions.  However, if I had to make the choice, I'd rather have the option of health regeneration, and here's why:

Let's say I'm on my way to kill the Dragon we saw in the PAX video.  I've gotten up to a level where I think I have a chance, I've stockpiled my consumables and I've got what I believe is the best party for the job.  On my way, I pass by a cave I've never seen before.  Without the option to turn on health regeneration, if I want to explore that cave, I either need to remember to come back later or I need to clear it now, head back to my keep, and then head back out to the Dragon (potentially finding more and more areas of interest along the way, and having to do the same for each).

But if I could enter the cave, clear it out, leave, and turn on health regeneration in the game setting menu, then I could easily turn it back off once I've reached the Dragon.  Now the only content I'm missing is running back to my keep and back to the Dragon, e.g. padding.

Or, if I were you, I could leave it off all the time.

Or, if I were someone who didn't care about the challenge, I could leave it on all the time.

Why is there a problem?

It's a problem because it detracts from the way BW wants the game played. 

I play games of all types. I love DAO, hell I even liked DA2 (not as much, but I'm not one of the haters either). I don't think health regen in a game is inherently a bad idea. I do however believe that if a team of developers have made a decision, then that is how the game should be played. It's the experience they want you to have and they've taken pains to make sure it works. Instead of giving them the benfit of the doubt, players are up in arms and demanding a way out before seeing if it's really as big a hassle as it sounds to them.

I understand what you're saying about that cave before the dragon. And in that situation I'd be in the cave before I even finished thinking about it. Maybe I'd die in there, or maybe I'd pull of some sound tactics with a competent healer and come back out fresh faced and ready to raid, but for me that's part of the excitement.

this is pretty much my opinion right here, stated better.

[TheBlackBaron]

Biotic Sage wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

No. If the BSN has taught me anything, it's that toggles are racist or sexist or something.

By saying the BSN "taught" you something implies that you "learned" something, and thus "know" something.  And considering your profile pic, it's quite obvious that you know nothing so your entire statement must be a lie.

That's just logic, yo.

No, but seriously, if it's tied to difficulty level or something I don't really mind toggles existing. ME3 had "Story Mode", after all. No reason DA:I can't do something similar and allow things like health regen in it. I'd make fun of you for playing on it, probably, but the option would be there. 

Will combat be balanced for it? No, but if you're playing on Story Mode, that's not exactly your focus to begin with. 

[Dave of Canada]

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

The system exists purely for tediousness.

You're right, having no health regen exists only to make the game tedious and not to influence encounter design and gameplay.

[Biotic Sage]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Biotic Sage wrote...

TheBlackBaron wrote...

No. If the BSN has taught me anything, it's that toggles are racist or sexist or something.

By saying the BSN "taught" you something implies that you "learned" something, and thus "know" something.  And considering your profile pic, it's quite obvious that you know nothing so your entire statement must be a lie.

That's just logic, yo.

No, but seriously, if it's tied to difficulty level or something I don't really mind toggles existing. ME3 had "Story Mode", after all. No reason DA:I can't do something similar and allow things like health regen in it. I'd make fun of you for playing on it, probably, but the option would be there. 

Will combat be balanced for it? No, but if you're playing on Story Mode, that's not exactly your focus to begin with. 

Hahahaha My wife and I laugh at "I know where to put it" every time.  I can't decide if it's terrible acting or perfect delivery.

But anyway, yeah I'm the same way.  Easy mode isn't for me, but I definitely don't begrudge people who play on it.  It's just different tastes, and they should make the game as accessible as possible for the widest audience without sacrificing the gameplay integrity for the hardcore crowd.  I think Story Mode or Casual is a great solution, and if for some reason that's STILL not easy enough, then I don't see why the option to toggle health regen would be out of bounds.  People sure do like to freak out about stuff though.  Maybe they should add "Movie Mode" where you just do the dialogue and watch everything else like the combat happen automatically.  Or "Death Aura Mode" where you play with a death aura on your Inquisitor so that any enemies you start to fight just automatically fall down dead when they come in the death aura's radius.  Then people can just play for the story haha.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 02 septembre 2013 - 05:12 .

[Archereon]

@DaringMoosejaw: Why can't they just do it the way the old school games did it; allow the party to rest when in a safe location (a cleared area of a dungeon or the wilderness)-which doesn't necessarily mean sleep so no NWN narcolepsy required, just an hour long breather-thereby allowing mages to regenerate their mana, and use healing spells to restore the party to fighting shape. Or you could cut out the middle man and allow rest to restore both health and mana.

[Ecmoose]

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

What changed there so dramatically on the difficulty scale? Instead of simply going in because my health regenned, I had to make a round-trip back to base. Was that difficult? No. Was it time-consuming? Sure. Are you guys proclaiming that you're experts at going back to bases and other people just can't bear with the challenge of doing so? I doubt it.

The idea is survival tactics. Sure,  you can run back to base every time you're low on health. But your gameplay time is going to be significantly longer than someone who figures out tactical combat, approaches encounters intelligently and only loses a modicum of health, if any, per encounter.

With a healer and proper rescourse management you can go out to whatever territory you're in and not come back until you feel like it. With bad management you'll be high tailing it back to base. That's a design decision and it's not pointless, it rewards intelligent play.

[DaringMoosejaw]

Dave of Canada wrote...

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

The system exists purely for tediousness.

You're right, having no health regen exists only to make the game tedious and not to influence encounter design and gameplay.

Did you read my post? I gave an exception. If you're in an area and just before a fight you can't handle due to health and you are allowed to leave, heal, return and everything is exactly the same except that your health has returned - there is no difficulty, there is simply an extra time investment. Nothing more. If it's not like that, then I agree there's a point there that puts emphasis on preparation. Unless having a mage in the party completely invalidates it, which then just kind of makes the whole thing silly to even argue about because I imagine everyone's going to do that anyway.

[n7stormrunner]

Archereon wrote...

@DaringMoosejaw: Why can't they just do it the way the old school games did it; allow the party to rest when in a safe location (a cleared area of a dungeon or the wilderness)-which doesn't necessarily mean sleep so no NWN narcolepsy required, just an hour long breather-thereby allowing mages to regenerate their mana, and use healing spells to restore the party to fighting shape. Or you could cut out the middle man and allow rest to restore both health and mana.

even better totally cut out the middle man and have health and mana regen 

probably become it's the same thing as just regen except you have to push a button, and button are too close to toggles... and toggles are bad :innocent:

[DaringMoosejaw]

Archereon wrote...

@DaringMoosejaw: Why can't they just do it the way the old school games did it; allow the party to rest when in a safe location (a cleared area of a dungeon or the wilderness)-which doesn't necessarily mean sleep so no NWN narcolepsy required, just an hour long breather-thereby allowing mages to regenerate their mana, and use healing spells to restore the party to fighting shape. Or you could cut out the middle man and allow rest to restore both health and mana.

I actually figured that's what they intended to do - add a rest command like they had in the Witcher and I believe NWN2 (Never played the first one, own it but never quite managed to sum up the desire to venture onward after the first area).

[Archereon]

n7stormrunner wrote...

Archereon wrote...

@DaringMoosejaw: Why can't they just do it the way the old school games did it; allow the party to rest when in a safe location (a cleared area of a dungeon or the wilderness)-which doesn't necessarily mean sleep so no NWN narcolepsy required, just an hour long breather-thereby allowing mages to regenerate their mana, and use healing spells to restore the party to fighting shape. Or you could cut out the middle man and allow rest to restore both health and mana.

even better totally cut out the middle man and have health and mana regen 

probably become it's the same thing as just regen except you have to push a button, and button are too close to toggles... and toggles are bad 

Notice I said "rest in a safe place" and not just "rest whenever you want", and by safe, I mean in a place you could reasonably expect to take an hour long breather without being disturbed in real life, aka you can't just take a nap in the middle of the lair of the evil blood mage Bob the Immortal Onslaught, right outside of a bandit's camping ground, and so on.

Modifié par Archereon, 02 septembre 2013 - 05:21 .

[slimgrin]

Just learn to prepare for combat, and use tactics. Then all the health regen worries will vanish. Or play on easy.

[The Hierophant]

DaringMoosejaw depending on how long you stay away from the location it's possible that you run the risk of enemies respawning. (power levelers/grinders excluded)