526 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

simfamSP wrote...

Or just save/reload until you get it right.

Or just bring a mage.

[DaringMoosejaw]

Ecmoose wrote...

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

What changed there so dramatically on the difficulty scale? Instead of simply going in because my health regenned, I had to make a round-trip back to base. Was that difficult? No. Was it time-consuming? Sure. Are you guys proclaiming that you're experts at going back to bases and other people just can't bear with the challenge of doing so? I doubt it.

The idea is survival tactics. Sure,  you can run back to base every time you're low on health. But your gameplay time is going to be significantly longer than someone who figures out tactical combat, approaches encounters intelligently and only loses a modicum of health, if any, per encounter.

With a healer and proper rescourse management you can go out to whatever territory you're in and not come back until you feel like it. With bad management you'll be high tailing it back to base. That's a design decision and it's not pointless, it rewards intelligent play.

So you get to finish the game...faster because you were better prepared? This system isn't the hardcore divider between stupid players and super skilled players that you're trying to imply, if the only investment is time then it's just a timesink for someone who doesn't bring along a mage. That doesn't really take any skill, and I imagine you'd be screwed anyway in a lot of the bigger fights if you didn't have a dedicated healer along anyway so that area seems already covered by me. Why add silly 3 minute jaunts to and from base to that?

Unless enemies respawn when you leave, there's no extra challenge here. Merely time investment, which is not challenging. Waiting for the sake of waiting is neither fun nor hard, but it is very boring.

[Bekkael]

The Hierophant wrote...

DaringMoosejaw depending on how long you stay away from the location it's possible that you run the risk of enemies respawning. (power levelers/grinders excluded)

Has respawning enemies been confirmed? They didn't have that in DA2, so that would be different.

[Archereon]

@Bekkal: Given that Inquisition appears to be somewhat open world, I'd be surprised if they DIDN'T respawn.

@DaringMooseJaw: And why not have enemies respawn when you leave without eliminating the source of them? If you want players to manage their resources and don't want them running back to town every five minutes because a zombie slapped them and took off 5 points of their health and player OCD is rearing it's ugly head, make enemies respawn when they do that.

Modifié par Archereon, 02 septembre 2013 - 05:25 .

[Degenerate Rakia Time]

Maria Caliban wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

Or just save/reload until you get it right.

Or just bring a mage.

Or rest for 8 hours after every fight



Good way to get my BG in game time to 4 years 

[Bekkael]

Archereon wrote...

@Bekkal: Given that Inquisition appears to be somewhat open world, I'd be surprised if they DIDN'T respawn.

Well, that will be very good for levelling anyway. I wonder what the level cap will be this time? I hope 50 like DA2 or even higher.

[n7stormrunner]

Bekkael wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...

DaringMoosejaw depending on how long you stay away from the location it's possible that you run the risk of enemies respawning. (power levelers/grinders excluded)

Has respawning enemies been confirmed? They didn't have that in DA2, so that would be different.

I hope they don't, overwise hit and run attacks become pointless, I would rather like to use hit and runs on keeps

[DaringMoosejaw]

The Hierophant wrote...

DaringMoosejaw depending on how long you stay away from the location it's possible that you run the risk of enemies respawning. (power levelers/grinders excluded)

Unless they respawn in the amount of time it takes you to return to base, it's not really adding anything to the game. Maybe they will, I dunno, I'd still rather they add difficulty in other areas instead of making me wipe out a bunch of mobs I already killed because they respawned in the interim. I also like the idea that when you clear a dungeon, it stays cleared like you're actually leaving a mark on the world. But that's me.

Again, I'm betting this is an overreaction on the OP's side and regenerating health is not going to be just running back to the base.

[The Hierophant]

Bekkael wrote...

Has respawning enemies been confirmed? They didn't have that in DA2, so that would be different.

It's only an assumption based on DAI being open world.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Pfft. In Bethesda's Bloodmoon Expansion to Morrowind I got so sick of being attacked every 20 seconds I went back to the main island and made a ring of invisibility, and one of health regen +4 so I could explore the island. Sweet. No more rieklings kicking my ass. Oh they were swarming all over the place.

Also made sure to have a vampiric blade. And in DAO I made sure to unlock Reave. Leliana died there at the hands of Morrigan and I.

Then if health regens real slow all it means is that you leave your computer on for a while and go to the store or do something else.

[DaringMoosejaw]

Archereon wrote...

@Bekkal: Given that Inquisition appears to be somewhat open world, I'd be surprised if they DIDN'T respawn.

@DaringMooseJaw: And why not have enemies respawn when you leave without eliminating the source of them? If you want players to manage their resources and don't want them running back to town every five minutes because a zombie slapped them and took off 5 points of their health and player OCD is rearing it's ugly head, make enemies respawn when they do that.

Hey, I'm on your side with the rest command in cleared areas and respawning enemies if you don't beat the boss. The save thing is perhaps a little /too/ much for me - I'm already replaying the game multiple times to try out different story choices, classes and races, having to redo entire swaths of the game because I screwed up doesn't sound very appealing to me, but I get it.

My main point is I think people hear, 'Non-regenerating health is back! It's an excellent feature because it adds difficulty!' and that's not true - non-regenerating health combined with a lot of the other mechanics you've mentioned is what adds to the difficulty. Without it you've just got a timesink. People are giving it too much credit on its own.

[Ecmoose]

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

Ecmoose wrote...

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

What changed there so dramatically on the difficulty scale? Instead of simply going in because my health regenned, I had to make a round-trip back to base. Was that difficult? No. Was it time-consuming? Sure. Are you guys proclaiming that you're experts at going back to bases and other people just can't bear with the challenge of doing so? I doubt it.

The idea is survival tactics. Sure,  you can run back to base every time you're low on health. But your gameplay time is going to be significantly longer than someone who figures out tactical combat, approaches encounters intelligently and only loses a modicum of health, if any, per encounter.

With a healer and proper rescourse management you can go out to whatever territory you're in and not come back until you feel like it. With bad management you'll be high tailing it back to base. That's a design decision and it's not pointless, it rewards intelligent play.

So you get to finish the game...faster because you were better prepared? This system isn't the hardcore divider between stupid players and super skilled players that you're trying to imply, if the only investment is time then it's just a timesink for someone who doesn't bring along a mage. That doesn't really take any skill, and I imagine you'd be screwed anyway in a lot of the bigger fights if you didn't have a dedicated healer along anyway so that area seems already covered by me. Why add silly 3 minute jaunts to and from base to that?

Unless enemies respawn when you leave, there's no extra challenge here. Merely time investment, which is not challenging. Waiting for the sake of waiting is neither fun nor hard, but it is very boring.

Yes you beat things easier, finish things faster, and complete more objectives because you played smart. It's not time, it is skill. You can run in swinging at whatever enemy is closest, let your party members do whatever they want and complete your missions, but you'll most likely be lower on health then someone who planned ahead.

I don't understand why you can't wrap your head around a system that has been in place much longer then health regen. Many games still use static health bars. The idea is not that it will save time, but my point is that if you learn and play smart, instead of relying on a hasty retreat, you're going to spend less time trekking back to base thinking "this sucks". Instead you'll be clearing swaths of enemies thinking "i'm awesome". 

And considering in the demo they said it would take 15 minutes to walk from one end of the map to the other in a straight line, it's not going to be just a "silly 3 minute jaunt". 

You can focus on the waiting if you want to. On time spent trekking back to base. But if you choose to learn the mechanics of a game you purchased, then you won't have to worry about waiting around to heal.

[Ecmoose]

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

Archereon wrote...

@Bekkal: Given that Inquisition appears to be somewhat open world, I'd be surprised if they DIDN'T respawn.

@DaringMooseJaw: And why not have enemies respawn when you leave without eliminating the source of them? If you want players to manage their resources and don't want them running back to town every five minutes because a zombie slapped them and took off 5 points of their health and player OCD is rearing it's ugly head, make enemies respawn when they do that.

Hey, I'm on your side with the rest command in cleared areas and respawning enemies if you don't beat the boss. The save thing is perhaps a little /too/ much for me - I'm already replaying the game multiple times to try out different story choices, classes and races, having to redo entire swaths of the game because I screwed up doesn't sound very appealing to me, but I get it.

My main point is I think people hear, 'Non-regenerating health is back! It's an excellent feature because it adds difficulty!' and that's not true - non-regenerating health combined with a lot of the other mechanics you've mentioned is what adds to the difficulty. Without it you've just got a timesink. People are giving it too much credit on its own.

And if you can figure that out on your own, why would you assume a team of game developers with experience wouldn't also figure out what systems to add that would balance the lack of health regen?

I think it's kind of silly to assume they are just takign out health regen without adding other systems to make it an important factor in gameplay.

[Maverick827]

Maria Caliban wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

Or just save/reload until you get it right.

Or just bring a mage.

This is kind of a paradox, though.  If you don't have health regen, then you bring a mage.  But if the system is that simple to bypass, why even remove health regen in the first place?  Just so they can announce it at PAX and get cheers from the audience?

Healing in DA2 was significantly less powerful than healing in Origins.  The heals had much longer cooldowns and were essentially an extra potion you could use once per fight.  With this new no-regen kick they're on, I'd expect healing to be similarly neutered if not even more so, so I doubt this will be a viable option.

Ecmoose wrote...

And considering in the demo they said it would take 15 minutes to walk from one end of the map to the other in a straight line, it's not going to be just a "silly 3 minute jaunt". 

So it's going to be even more tedious than we think?  Are you trying to bring us around to your logic or make us even more worried about being able to enjoy the game?

Modifié par Maverick827, 02 septembre 2013 - 05:39 .

[Ecmoose]

Maverick827 wrote...

So it's going to be even more tedious than we think?  Are you trying to bring us around to your logic or make us even more worried about being able to enjoy the game?

I was attempting to discuss the merits of playing intelligently under a nonregenerative system. Which would prevent significant travel time between healing and fighting.

[Maria Caliban]

Maverick827 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

Or just save/reload until you get it right.

Or just bring a mage.

This is kind of a paradox, though.  If you don't have health regen, then you bring a mage.  But if the system is that simple to bypass, why even remove health regen in the first place?

To satisfy people who don't like health regen.

[n7stormrunner]

Ecmoose wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

So it's going to be even more tedious than we think?  Are you trying to bring us around to your logic or make us even more worried about being able to enjoy the game?

I was attempting to discuss the merits of playing intelligently under a nonregenerative system. Which would prevent significant travel time between healing and fighting.

your on the wrong forum for that, I'm sorry to say. 

[The Hierophant]

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

Unless they respawn in the amount of time it takes you to return to base, it's not really adding anything to the game. Maybe they will, I dunno, I'd still rather they add difficulty in other areas instead of making me wipe out a bunch of mobs I already killed because they respawned in the interim. I also like the idea that when you clear a dungeon, it stays cleared like you're actually leaving a mark on the world. But that's me.

Again, I'm betting this is an overreaction on the OP's side and regenerating health is not going to be just running back to the base.

I got you. For real difficulty the enemies would need vastly superior AI compared to previous games, utilise the same level/stat system, actively wear equipment, and use non specialisation talents like the pc in combat.

As for the OP It's possible that health regen still exists through enchanted gear, sustainable talents and passives skills.

[DaringMoosejaw]

Ecmoose wrote...

Yes you beat things easier, finish things faster, and complete more objectives because you played smart. It's not time, it is skill. You can run in swinging at whatever enemy is closest, let your party members do whatever they want and complete your missions, but you'll most likely be lower on health then someone who planned ahead.

I don't understand why you can't wrap your head around a system that has been in place much longer then health regen. Many games still use static health bars. The idea is not that it will save time, but my point is that if you learn and play smart, instead of relying on a hasty retreat, you're going to spend less time trekking back to base thinking "this sucks". Instead you'll be clearing swaths of enemies thinking "i'm awesome". 

And considering in the demo they said it would take 15 minutes to walk from one end of the map to the other in a straight line, it's not going to be just a "silly 3 minute jaunt". 

You can focus on the waiting if you want to. On time spent trekking back to base. But if you choose to learn the mechanics of a game you purchased, then you won't have to worry about waiting around to heal.

Are static health bars really much of a concern in party-based RPGs where you can just have a mage heal you after every fight? I really don't get how great non-regenerating health is in an RPG because I figure having a mage there fixes it. It's that simple, that's not really hard or a very big secret.

When folks complain about regenerating health, it's usually in FPS's which is a whole other bag of chips because you don't (usually?) have party members who have an easy healing ability to negate it and have to spend your time either playing conservatively or hunting down health kits.

As for the time investment, there's a few things to note in that statement:

1) 'Walk'. There'll be mounts.

2) Did they mean...the whole game put together (they'll be subdivided into zones) or just one subzone?

and 

3) You're not going to be walking from the extreme opposite of the map to the other most of the time.

So I imagine it'd be about 3-5 minutes.

You seem to really like this feature whenever you imagine some hypothetical unskilled player frowning at having to travel back to base because they mindlessly rushed their enemies without a mage in the party (which they'll need for bigger boss fights anyway I bet). I'm not sure all too many of those people exist, and I don't really see the massive challenge imposed by forcing certain people to finish things 10 or 15 minutes longer than it took you to do it, if it's just because they had to horse it back to a base.

If a mage negates this whole thing, then it really doesn't matter to me whether this feature exists or not. So I'd find it pointless.

[SmokePants]

There's probably going to be some way to regain health that will either be trivial ("Hey, mage, cast your heal spell, wouldja?") or tedious ("Hey guys, that was rough, but if we sit Indian-style for a solid minute, we'll be good to go.") or obligatory ("Good thing we crafted/bought all these potions."), which will make the non-regeneration pointless.

[Renmiri1]

Star fury wrote...

Jayne126 wrote...
Oh, who am I kidding. Mage never get's nerfed.

LOL what? Mages were nerfed to the ground in DA2 and biotics sucked hard in ME2.

Inside joke for WoW players. And right on the money. I should add that DK's get nerfed way too much and Ghostcrawler and Zaheen better stop using the Nerf bat on my classes 

[Degenerate Rakia Time]

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

Are static health bars really much of a concern in party-based RPGs where you can just have a mage heal you after every fight? I really don't get how great non-regenerating health is in an RPG because I figure having a mage there fixes it. It's that simple, that's not really hard or a very big secret.

When folks complain about regenerating health, it's usually in FPS's which is a whole other bag of chips because you don't (usually?) have party members who have an easy healing ability to negate it and have to spend your time either playing conservatively or hunting down health kits.

As for the time investment, there's a few things to note in that statement:

1) 'Walk'. There'll be mounts.

2) Did they mean...the whole game put together (they'll be subdivided into zones) or just one subzone?

and 

3) You're not going to be walking from the extreme opposite of the map to the other most of the time.

So I imagine it'd be about 3-5 minutes.

You seem to really like this feature whenever you imagine some hypothetical unskilled player frowning at having to travel back to base because they mindlessly rushed their enemies without a mage in the party (which they'll need for bigger boss fights anyway I bet). I'm not sure all too many of those people exist, and I don't really see the massive challenge imposed by forcing certain people to finish things 10 or 15 minutes longer than it took you to do it, if it's just because they had to horse it back to a base.

If a mage negates this whole thing, then it really doesn't matter to me whether this feature exists or not. So I'd find it pointless.

The way i see it, they are either trying to artificially increase gameplay lenght, or forcing you to use a mage

[The Hierophant]

IIRC there was mention of hazardous weather effects. Does any one else believe that this had an impact on the exclusion of free health regen?

Modifié par The Hierophant, 02 septembre 2013 - 06:02 .

[n7stormrunner]

The Hierophant wrote...

IIRC there was mention of hazardous weather effects. Do any one else think this had an impact on the exclusion of free health regen?

it is not impossible, it may even be likely.

[Renmiri1]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Maverick827 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

Or just save/reload until you get it right.

Or just bring a mage.

This is kind of a paradox, though.  If you don't have health regen, then you bring a mage.  But if the system is that simple to bypass, why even remove health regen in the first place?

To satisfy people who don't like health regen.

 Evil idea:devil:

Fine, I am 100% behind mandatory Health regen, deadly combat even on casual mode.

As long as
the Healer has to be Anders like on DA2  

No one else has the talent tree and the skill to heal health but him and every single nitpicker masochist "no health regen", "deadly and scary combat" lover HAS TO take Anders.

I will be thrilled since I'm an Anders mancer, not only to have him around but to see the guys forcing me to play as they like the game in hard mode .. being forced to play the game with romance and bisexuality and gay companions as I like  with Anders as their mandatory healer (or someone they loathe just as much)

(Incidentally is really uncanny how the populations overlap: the "hard combat on dA please" crowd and he "I hate that I got gay cooties when Anders flirted with me" crowd are almost 80-90% the same just by casual observation)

Mwahahah.

/sigh.. Too bad I don't decide **** on DAI. because this idea rules 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 02 septembre 2013 - 06:11 .