148 réponses à ce sujet

[Potato Cat]

TheCreeper wrote...

Bioware is clearly aware of the lore implications and it sounds like in some areas being Qunari is going to make things a good deal more difficult.

I suspect there's an element of "being the only trying to fix things." And later on "Commander of such a large and powerful force." that does reduce the xenophobia a bit, similar to the warden.

What interests me, is that playing a qunari will prevent you from ever playing a certain area's quests. I LOVE that idea, no matter how potentially damaging to the effectiveness of a qunari Inquisitor or whatever. Personally, I think it will be Qunari settlement, or group of Ben-Hassrath's one some sort of mission for the Ariqun. Why would they want a Tal-Vashoth's help?

[Wulfram]

I don't know if it's actually bigger stretch than an elf. Possibly less of one - the oxmen are at least feared and respected, so it might be easier to accept one in authority than a bunch of people who are seen as servants and low status labourers.

[Aolbain]

Or, you know, the devs actually thought about it and did it in a way that makes sense.

[Mornmagor]

I like the Grey Skinned Amazon approach

But, indeed, you start saving the word here and there all around, people are bound to accept you.

And when they learn you don't follow the Qun or anything, or even see and hear followers of the Qun were after you(which could be possible), i doubt you're gonna have problems because of your race for long.

Then again, seeing some things being different from race to race are fine, and should add replay value even through races.

However, if the writers say it's fine, it's fine. Especially when i like playing a Qunari ;p

Modifié par Kuroi Kishin, 02 septembre 2013 - 10:28 .

[Amirit]

LanceSolous13 wrote...
 The writers/devs have stated that there are going to be parts which will be a lot more difficult to complete if you are playing a Quinari/Tal-Vassoth/Kossith, where a Dwarf or even an Elf would have an easier time.

I am ALL for recognition of races. But could you please post a link on that statment from developers? 

Right now I share conserns with OP. The only way I see an ox-man as a part of free world of Thedas outside the Qun is to be lost as a baby and found and rased by humans (dwarves, elves). Tal-Vassoth does not work for me, because of that Wiki link. See for yourself:

Reasons to reject the Qun:

1. Some Qunari who have ambition above their station come to resent their place in the society, and thus the Qun;  (And we know that everyone in Qun is evaluated. So, that makes our Inquisitor someone who wants something he does not deserv)

2. others, such as Maraas, seem to simply tire of a life driven by duty and purpose.  (Yah, sure, an Inquisitor, tired of duty)

3. Some are beyond rehabilitation after years of living under the Qun, and are unable to live with other cultures, and thus resort to the lives of bandits. (No comments)

With mages it's even wors:

 Mages are tolerated by other Tal-Vashoth, but they're not really popular since they lack proper training and therefore might be dangerous to those around them.  (Untrained mage? Unable fully control his powers? Leader of the huge organisation?)

Though the Tal-Vashoth still keep the former Saarebas leashed if those are in their company.  (Can not be used than)

As you see in any way Tal-Vashot is a damaged goods (very seriously damaged). Hence, the only way - orphan rased by another race. 

Modifié par Amirit, 02 septembre 2013 - 11:57 .

[mikeymoonshine]

Amirit wrote...

LanceSolous13 wrote...
 The writers/devs have stated that there are going to be parts which will be a lot more difficult to complete if you are playing a Quinari/Tal-Vassoth/Kossith, where a Dwarf or even an Elf would have an easier time.

I am ALL for recognition of races. But could you please post a link on that statment from developers? 

Right now I share conserns with OP. The only way I see an ox-man as a part of free world of Thedas outside the Qun is to be lost as a baby and found and rased by humans (dwarves, elves). Tal-Vassoth does not work for me, because of that Wiki link. See for yourself:

Reasons to reject the Qun:

1. Some Qunari who have ambition above their station come to resent their place in the society, and thus the Qun;  (And we know that everyone in Qun is evaluated. So, that makes our Inquisitor someone who wants something he does not deserv)

2. others, such as Maraas, seem to simply tire of a life driven by duty and purpose.  (Yah, sure, an Inquisitor, tired of duty)

3. Some are beyond rehabilitation after years of living under the Qun, and are unable to live with other cultures, and thus resort to the lives of bandits. (No comments)

With mages it's even wors:

 Magesare tolerated by other Tal-Vashoth, but they're not really popular since they lack proper training and therefore might be dangerous to those around them.  (Untrained mage? Unable fully control his powers? Leader of the huge organisation?)

Though the Tal-Vashoth still keep the former Saarebas leashed if those are in their company.  (Can not be used than)

As you see in any way Tal-Vashot is a damaged goods (very seriously damaged). Hence, the only way - orphan is the 

You are simplifying it though, There could be many variables that you are completely ignoring. Besides even if this is the case and a Tal-Vashoth is damaged goods, so is a mage and so are the elves! and dwarves to a lesser extent.

The inquisitor has a massive arm apparently and people have to give him/her some level of respect. I think as ever the queestion is "how do you become leader of the inquisition" Who are you that makes ou the person to do this? it has to be more than survivng the fade tear. 

[Kalas Magnus]

i dont know.


if demons start raining down out of nowhere I can see people following anyone willing to get rid of them

edit: same way most fereldons were willing to accept orleasian and warden aid despite their history in origins

Modifié par Kalas Magnus, 02 septembre 2013 - 11:47 .

[mikeymoonshine]

Kalas Magnus wrote...

i dont know.


if demons start raining down out of nowhere I can see people following anyone willing to get rid of them

Exactly, like in origins the poeple of thedas simply have more important things to worry about. I hope there will be quests that are more dificult or different for certain races (and mages), people being rude to ou based on race, people shouting stuff at you in the street maybe, It would actually be awesome if we got the odd exstemist type's like sister pertrice working against you (or with you) based on ur race and or opinions and past actions. 

[Kalas Magnus]

leaguer of one wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

WHO CARES ABOUT LORE, WE ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF A DEMON INVASION

I thought we learn in DA:O that the end of the world does not bring people together.

that was because of loghain though. 

[Petiertje]

JasonPogo wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

 OP... Read this...http://dragonage.wik...iki/Tal-Vashoth

Yeah that dose not change the fact that ALL of Thedas is still going to hate you if you are 7 feet tall and have horns.  The people of Thedas don't care if they are Qunari or Tal-Vashoth.  They don't even know the difference.

Look at it from the bright side. The more people hate the Qunari/Tal-Vashoth, the more challenging it wil be to persue them to your cause. That means a more challenging story (I hope), to balance the 'walk in the park' combat because Qunari are usually very capable warriors.

[Amirit]

mikeymoonshine wrote...

You are simplifying it though, There could be many variables that you are completely ignoring. Besides even if this is the case and a Tal-Vashoth is damaged goods, so is a mage and so are the elves! and dwarves to a lesser extent.

The inquisitor has a massive arm apparently and people have to give him/her some level of respect. I think as ever the queestion is "how do you become leader of the inquisition" Who are you that makes ou the person to do this? it has to be more than survivng the fade tear. 

Actualy, you are simplifying thing by placing all non-humans in the same basket as very specific group of Kossiths - Tal-Vashots. Here, a comrehensive list why elves and dwarves are different in humans eyes:

yummysoap wrote...

... humans and elves share a long history and a degree of familiarity (with elves as servants or maids in noble houses). The Dalish are considered a threat, but a known threat, and they're generally not dangerous unless approached. 

Dwarves too have maintained a harmonious relationship with humans throughout history through trade and arms (during blights), and while they're not Andrastian they're not viewed with nearly as much suspicion or disdain as the newcomer Qunari, who decided to greet Thedas with a war that nearly toppled some of its strongest nations, and, more recently, held Kirkwall under siege until Hawke saved the day.

Most crucially, though, Origins worked because the Wardens are, and are reputed to be, a multi-race order where humans, elves and dwarves have always risen together to defeat a common purpose. The Inquisition, on the other hand, disbanded to become the Seekers of the Andrastian Chantry. So why would a Qunari (or Tal-vashoth) take its name and logo (A GREAT BIG CHANTRY EYE WITH A TEMPLAR SWORD, FOR GOD'S SAKE) as its cause, and why would any other nation in Thedas allow it?

 

As an old roleplayer I can explaine a nuclear bomb in the hands of a dragon - there are no limitations to imagination. But I do not want to bend that  lore (DA lore) to my needs. I want it to be fluent and flawless by itself.

Modifié par Amirit, 02 septembre 2013 - 12:05 .

[Black Jimmy]

JasonPogo wrote...

Seeing as the Qunari are seen as an invader and alien in all of Thedas how can they lead the Inquisition?  I mean it just seems to me that everything we have seen so far of Thedas and how the Qunari fit into it no one would fallow an order led by a Qunari.  MAYBE it would work if you go full force but I don't see many people negotiating with a Qunari.  Just seems like a hard sell to make it work.

Most people don't want to deal with you regardless. Being a Qunari or Elf may make it harder to negotioate.
It really doesn't seem like something worth worrying about.
So far, everything we've seen looks very well done, so I have high hopes that they'll pull it off believably.

[Navasha]

I don't see it any more difficult than an elf or a mage. The Dalish aren't likely to trust anyone who isn't a Dalish. The Chantry isn't going to trust a mage or someone who might be a Qunari. The dwarves don't like outsiders of any kind really. Humans generally don't like anyone other than themselves either.

That is kind of the point to having different races. You will have an easier time negotiating with factions that might see you as trustworthy depending on your race. Yes, the Qunari character probably has the fewest factions that might be easy to get a long, but that's what will likely make the qunari character the most fun to play. I always hate playing humans just for that reason.

[Medhia Nox]

You know - when the giant Qunari that I saved from the cage in Lothering was traveling around with me - I didn't face any mobs of hateful people who wanted to kill him.

Or - those Qunari I met in Kirkwall. While they kept to themselves - and certainly there were factions that DID hate and fear them - most people just went about their day.

There are mercenaries all over Thedas to be sure. Mercenaries that wouldn't care one wit if it were a Qunari or a Halla leading them so long as their was loot and lov'n at the end of a hard day of slaughter.

Also - who says a Qunari couldn't convert to the Chantry faith if they wanted to? Is it somehow magically stopped? Just because some forum goers equate the Qun to mind control - doesn't mean it actually is.

And this forum is terrible with Lore. We know next to NOTHING about the Qunari - and even less about the actual Qun. Just because we know some structure - or some basic tenants - doesn't mean that something in their quasi-religious texts could allow for a "Free Agent" type.

The Stens are obviously much more free than the average Qunari.

And that's even assuming the Qunari is part of THE Qunari - he might be Tal Vashoth - and then we're just back to mercenaries.

Or... elves, who don't have the inherent racial hatred of them. Or dwarves - who probably don't either. Or... any human outside of the Chantry breadbasket who seems to freely mingle.

Lastly - haven't we been told that "this" Inquisition - isn't "that" Inquisition and saying: But in the past... is somewhat pointless?

[Reznore57]

To be honest I don't think it's "realistic" at all to let a qunari at the head of what seems like one of the biggest human army.
Doesn't really work for dwarf , or elf either
But the Qunari are about to invade Thedas , so it sounds even worse.
Qunari are alien and ennemies , and the "but my qunisitor will be different" ...Sure he/she will not be a follower of the qun , but she/he will look like one.
It worked for wardens because they stayed out of humans politics , and most of them were cannon fodder...
The Inquisitor will hold some power...

It's a big case of bending story for gameplay reasons , something good can come out of it...
But mostly I think it will be a case of let's not think too much about this.

[Ziggeh]

Amirit wrote...

As you see in any way Tal-Vashot is a damaged goods (very seriously damaged). Hence, the only way - orphan rased by another race.

Is that not all assuming that all of those who reject the Qun share the mindset of the Qunari? Certainly we've seen examples of that, but that's not the same, given our extremely limited frame of reference, as them not existing.

[MrTijger]

leaguer of one wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

WHO CARES ABOUT LORE, WE ARE IN THE MIDDLE OF A DEMON INVASION

I thought we learn in DA:O that the end of the world does not bring people together.

No, but the Blight does, just ask Alistair

[Ziggeh]

Reznore57 wrote...

Qunari are alien and ennemies

Collectively. As a nation.

Individually they are accepted as mercenaries and can apparently walk the streets of a major citiy their army has recently assaulted and killed the leader of.

[mikeymoonshine]

Amirit wrote...

mikeymoonshine wrote...

You are simplifying it though, There could be many variables that you are completely ignoring. Besides even if this is the case and a Tal-Vashoth is damaged goods, so is a mage and so are the elves! and dwarves to a lesser extent.

The inquisitor has a massive arm apparently and people have to give him/her some level of respect. I think as ever the queestion is "how do you become leader of the inquisition" Who are you that makes ou the person to do this? it has to be more than survivng the fade tear. 

Actualy, you are simplifying thing by placing all non-humans in the same basket as very specific group of Kossiths - Tal-Vashots. Here, a comrehensive list why elves and dwarves are different in humans eyes:

yummysoap wrote...

... humans and elves share a long history and a degree of familiarity (with elves as servants or maids in noble houses). The Dalish are considered a threat, but a known threat, and they're generally not dangerous unless approached. 

Dwarves too have maintained a harmonious relationship with humans throughout history through trade and arms (during blights), and while they're not Andrastian they're not viewed with nearly as much suspicion or disdain as the newcomer Qunari, who decided to greet Thedas with a war that nearly toppled some of its strongest nations, and, more recently, held Kirkwall under siege until Hawke saved the day.

Most crucially, though, Origins worked because the Wardens are, and are reputed to be, a multi-race order where humans, elves and dwarves have always risen together to defeat a common purpose. The Inquisition, on the other hand, disbanded to become the Seekers of the Andrastian Chantry. So why would a Qunari (or Tal-vashoth) take its name and logo (A GREAT BIG CHANTRY EYE WITH A TEMPLAR SWORD, FOR GOD'S SAKE) as its cause, and why would any other nation in Thedas allow it?

 

As an old roleplayer I can explaine a nuclear bomb in the hands of a dragon - there are no limitations to imagination. But I do not want to bend that  lore (DA lore) to my needs. I want it to be fluent and flawless by itself.

Ugh :/ and now you are making assumptions, reguardless of your list an elf or a mage or worse an elf mage leading the inquisition would be unlikely and cause problems. I am not saying the problems would be the same and I am not placing all non humans in the same basket. 

The problems will be different but they are all still problems, I am just pointing out that there may be circumstances you haven't thought of or that we may not know of yet. 

As for how you were over simplifying it. A good example is how you easily digard the idea of a Tal-Vashoth Mage because they would be untrained. How do you know that? Yes that's probably the case for most Tal-Vashoth mages but there are many ways your character could have been trained and still be a Tal-Vashoth mage. 

You can't just read out some Lore and then say "so that can't happen" Thats over simplifying! 

[Reznore57]

Ziggeh wrote...

Reznore57 wrote...

Qunari are alien and ennemies

Collectively. As a nation.

Individually they are accepted as mercenaries and can apparently walk the streets of a major citiy their army has recently assaulted and killed the leader of.

Yeah like some kind of tourist.
They can do the dirty works if they want , like the elf , like the dwarf .
Thedas is a human world , it's ruled by humans .
We're talking here about a big political organization , with a qunari ruling ?

I'm happy about the races choices , don't get me wrong .
I don't even mind lore wise , but it doesn't really fit  imho.

Modifié par Reznore57, 02 septembre 2013 - 12:29 .

[mikeymoonshine]

Medhia Nox wrote...

You know - when the giant Qunari that I saved from the cage in Lothering was traveling around with me - I didn't face any mobs of hateful people who wanted to kill him.

Or - those Qunari I met in Kirkwall. While they kept to themselves - and certainly there were factions that DID hate and fear them - most people just went about their day.

There are mercenaries all over Thedas to be sure. Mercenaries that wouldn't care one wit if it were a Qunari or a Halla leading them so long as their was loot and lov'n at the end of a hard day of slaughter.

Also - who says a Qunari couldn't convert to the Chantry faith if they wanted to? Is it somehow magically stopped? Just because some forum goers equate the Qun to mind control - doesn't mean it actually is.

And this forum is terrible with Lore. We know next to NOTHING about the Qunari - and even less about the actual Qun. Just because we know some structure - or some basic tenants - doesn't mean that something in their quasi-religious texts could allow for a "Free Agent" type.

The Stens are obviously much more free than the average Qunari.

And that's even assuming the Qunari is part of THE Qunari - he might be Tal Vashoth - and then we're just back to mercenaries.

Or... elves, who don't have the inherent racial hatred of them. Or dwarves - who probably don't either. Or... any human outside of the Chantry breadbasket who seems to freely mingle.

Lastly - haven't we been told that "this" Inquisition - isn't "that" Inquisition and saying: But in the past... is somewhat pointless?

Exactly there are always variables. Mike Laidlaw said that DA2 was all about exsteme points of view so we can assume that even the people of kirkwalls opinion of the Qunari may be quite estreme compare to other places. That would make sense based on what was going on there. 

[mikeymoonshine]

Reznore57 wrote...

Ziggeh wrote...

Reznore57 wrote...

Qunari are alien and ennemies

Collectively. As a nation.

Individually they are accepted as mercenaries and can apparently walk the streets of a major citiy their army has recently assaulted and killed the leader of.

Yeah like some kind of tourist.
They can do the dirty works if they want , like the elf , like the dwarf .
Thedas is a human world , it's ruled by humans .
We're talking here about a big political organization , with a qunari ruling ?

I'm happy about the races choices , don't get me wrong .
I don't even mind lore wise , but it doesn't really fit  imho.

The Inquisition is a powerful force with a powerful army, agents and likeminded people who wan't to put the world right so the approval of other people in Theda's really doesn't mean much at all when it comes to who can be in charge.

The only question that Bioware needs to answer is how on earth did a Qunari, an elf, a dwarf or a mage get that job? 

[Para Pett]

 A quote given to Eurogamer from Cameron Lee.

"The Qunari are obviously very different from humans in terms of religion and belief systems, as are elves, when you think about the persecution of the elves in the Dragon Age universe," Lee said."Dwarfs are the same."

"So when you put a Qunari in charge of the Inquisition, which stands alone as a force that can actually have an impact and tip the scales, that's a really interesting scenario. The writers are really busy right now putting that in place, so when you play as a Qunari or as an elf, it is a different experience and there are different elements to the story that take shape based on these fundamental decisions you make about what race you want to be.

"It's not just a flavour. It's how people react to you. It's what opportunities you have in some discussions that take place that occur only because you're an elf or a Qunari. It's really interesting and complex about how it all fits together.

"But I will say for anyone who's worried, there is a rationale and good reason why a Qunari could be an Inquisitor. The writers have got a handle on it!"

Of course he would say that, but at least lets see what it is before jumping on the bandwagon of 'it'll never work' without having all the details.

Quote take from here if you want to read the whole thing www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-08-31-dragon-age-inquisition-has-tactical-view-from-dragon-age-origins

Modifié par beefcake 85, 02 septembre 2013 - 12:40 .

[Ziggeh]

beefcake 85 wrote...

Of course he would say that, but at least lets see what it is before jumping on the bandwagon of 'it'll never work' without having all the details.

That's the important thing here. We're saying that it can't work because we haven't thought of a way it would. Which is not a problem with the game.

It's a concern, certainly, something worth discussing, but to suggest it very definitely cannot work on that basis is fairly flawed.

[Ziggeh]

Reznore57 wrote...

Yeah like some kind of tourist.
They can do the dirty works if they want , like the elf , like the dwarf .
Thedas is a human world , it's ruled by humans .
We're talking here about a big political organization , with a qunari ruling ?

I'm happy about the races choices , don't get me wrong .
I don't even mind lore wise , but it doesn't really fit  imho.

Not being of the primary, ruling culture is a different point from them being an active enemy.

How do they get to be in charge? Well how does a human? We don't even know what the Inquisition is or how it was formed. I find it weird that we'd be applying such limitations without that information.