184 réponses à ce sujet

[teh DRUMPf!!]

lol... BSNites so simple.

[Br3admax]

Podge 90 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 Absolutely. And I should add...

... "artistic integrity" and all its variations are, by far, the worst buzzwords to come from the Hold The Line movement.

You know that "artistic integrity" came from a co-founder of Bioware, right?

He's saying that the writer's and BioWare's self-praise is stupid. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 02 septembre 2013 - 06:30 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

No, I'm saying fans that mock ME3 with the general buzzword "artistic integrity" are stupid.


It's not as prevalent now as it was before, but it's there.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 02 septembre 2013 - 06:35 .

[wright1978]

Art is a elitist word to distinguish certain entertainment from other entertainment people want to look down on. ME3's ending is an atrociously delivered trainwreck in proportions piece of entertainment.
Labelling it as art doesn't make it not an utter trainwreck or excuse it.

[Br3admax]

wright1978 wrote...

Art is a elitist word to distinguish certain entertainment from other entertainment people want to look down on. ME3's ending is an atrociously delivered trainwreck in proportions piece of entertainment.
Labelling it as art doesn't make it not an utter trainwreck or excuse it.

What are you talking about? 

[Br3admax]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

No, I'm saying fans that mock ME3 with the general buzzword "artistic integrity" are stupid.


It's not as prevalent now as it was before, but it's there.

Oh, well the point still stands, either way. 

[Iakus]

Br3ad wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Art is a elitist word to distinguish certain entertainment from other entertainment people want to look down on. ME3's ending is an atrociously delivered trainwreck in proportions piece of entertainment.
Labelling it as art doesn't make it not an utter trainwreck or excuse it.

What are you talking about? 

He's saying that labeling ME3's ending as "art" is just an attempt to lend it a level of gravitas it does not deserve.

"Yeah, a lot of people hate it, but it's Art, so it can't be bad!"

A bad ending is a bad ending, no matter how "artistic' it is.

[Br3admax]

No one said that art has to be good. Hence my question, since no one gave that as an excuse on why ME3 is good or bad.

[JamesFaith]

iakus wrote...

"Yeah, a lot of people hate it, but it's Art, so it can't be bad!"

Strange I never saw reasoning art=good from anyone who have positive opinion on ME3. (Well maybe Seival, not sure).

Only people I saw saying "It is art so it have to be good" and such are critics of endings.

[wright1978]

iakus wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

Art is a elitist word to distinguish certain entertainment from other entertainment people want to look down on. ME3's ending is an atrociously delivered trainwreck in proportions piece of entertainment.
Labelling it as art doesn't make it not an utter trainwreck or excuse it.

What are you talking about? 

He's saying that labeling ME3's ending as "art" is just an attempt to lend it a level of gravitas it does not deserve.

"Yeah, a lot of people hate it, but it's Art, so it can't be bad!"

A bad ending is a bad ending, no matter how "artistic' it is.

Yep don't try and pretentiously label deeper meaning into what is the equivalent of a big steaming tray of horse rear end products.

[Thore2k10]

Sad piano music paired together with three different colors is not art.

[Xamufam]

For ART in stories you need:
Suspension of disbelief this should not be broken.
Secondary belief:

Inside it, what [the author] relates is 'true:' it accords with the laws of
that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside.
The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather
art, has failed. You are then out in the Primary World again, looking at
the little abortive Secondary World from the outside.-J.R.R. Tolkien

You have to reach it with logic & reason in an socratic exercise, not flimsy conjecture
Mass effect is a talky techy universe so details matters
You needs narrative coherence, things should not pop up from nowhere
don't introduce a new main goal & new character.

This vid explains it.

EC

Themes
Why the ending is broken
The dos and don'ts of endings
www.writersdigest.com/whats-new/the-dos-and-donts-of-novel-endings

Modifié par Troxa, 02 septembre 2013 - 09:11 .

[Iakus]

JamesFaith wrote...

iakus wrote...

"Yeah, a lot of people hate it, but it's Art, so it can't be bad!"

Strange I never saw reasoning art=good from anyone who have positive opinion on ME3. (Well maybe Seival, not sure).

Only people I saw saying "It is art so it have to be good" and such are critics of endings.

There was plenty of it when the backlash first hit.

Especially from gaming news sources like IGN.

[Reorte]

Thore2k10 wrote...

Sad piano music paired together with three different colors is not art.

All sorts of things can be art. If a film, play, or novel are art then so is a story-driven game. That doesn't make it good or bad in itself - there's good art and bad art after all.

[JamesFaith]

iakus wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

iakus wrote...

"Yeah, a lot of people hate it, but it's Art, so it can't be bad!"

Strange I never saw reasoning art=good from anyone who have positive opinion on ME3. (Well maybe Seival, not sure).

Only people I saw saying "It is art so it have to be good" and such are critics of endings.

There was plenty of it when the backlash first hit.

Especially from gaming news sources like IGN.

Can you please show me one, just single one article on IGN or other major gaming site, where they claimed that ME3 is good/can't be bad because it is art? And I'm speaking about whole sentence not just article when someone claimed ME3 good and later said that ME3 is art.

Just one article with undeniable causal nexus between ME3 is art and ME3 have to be good?

[Thore2k10]

Reorte wrote...

Thore2k10 wrote...

Sad piano music paired together with three different colors is not art.

All sorts of things can be art. If a film, play, or novel are art then so is a story-driven game. That doesn't make it good or bad in itself - there's good art and bad art after all.

Up to the ending im with you and i think its art! The last 10 minutes are not imho. Those minutes are just there, and have nothing to do with this over 100+ hours of story driven game, except the looks of certain people and  the designs of some spaceships.

To me this game is without an ending. I never felt like there was any conclusion to said 100+ hours, which happened logically from the events before...

[Iakus]

JamesFaith wrote...

iakus wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

iakus wrote...

"Yeah, a lot of people hate it, but it's Art, so it can't be bad!"

Strange I never saw reasoning art=good from anyone who have positive opinion on ME3. (Well maybe Seival, not sure).

Only people I saw saying "It is art so it have to be good" and such are critics of endings.

There was plenty of it when the backlash first hit.

Especially from gaming news sources like IGN.

Can you please show me one, just single one article on IGN or other major gaming site, where they claimed that ME3 is good/can't be bad because it is art? And I'm speaking about whole sentence not just article when someone claimed ME3 good and later said that ME3 is art.

Just one article with undeniable causal nexus between ME3 is art and ME3 have to be good?

http://www.ign.com/v...erous-precedent

[JamesFaith]

iakus wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...
Can you please show me one, just single one article on IGN or other major gaming site, where they claimed that ME3 is good/can't be bad because it is art? And I'm speaking about whole sentence not just article when someone claimed ME3 good and later said that ME3 is art.

Just one article with undeniable causal nexus between ME3 is art and ME3 have to be good?

http://www.ign.com/v...erous-precedent

Watched. Don't hear them claim that ME3 endings are good because they are art.

He just talked about art and admit he like endings. 

[Ninja Stan]

Did it move you or affect you emotionally? Was there a sense of imagination, creativity, and skill put into the work? Then yes, it is probably art, in some sense of the term.

Did you like it or dislike it? Great, but that has little bearing on whether it is or is not art. And whether you like it is probably way more important a question to answer for yourself than whether or not it counts as art, because whether or not it's considered art counts for very little when it comes to making a purchasing decision.

The "artistic integrity" argument is a red herring, since those who hate the term use it the same way they are accusing BioWare of using it--to deflect or dismiss criticism of the game or its endings. Ray Muzyka didn't use the term to excuse the game or to shield it from gamers' opinions of the game. He used it to show support for the game and for the team who had an end goal in mind and worked tirelessly to achieve that goal. Whether gamers loved or hated the result was immaterial to this show of support. In this case, "artistic integrity" meant having the dedication and conviction to finish the game on the team's own terms and not letting external pressures affect that conviction.

If anything, "artistic integrity" means BioWare is more likely to resist external pressure to do things in ways gamers might not like, such as the oft-cited "EA interference" and the controversial Hold the Line movement. Keep in mind that this community exerts pressure on BioWare from both the "we love it, do more of it" as well as the "we hate it, never do that again" sides, and "artistic integrity" allows BioWare to design, complete, and market games that, in general, gamers seem to enjoy quite a lot.

In summary, art and liking something aren't necessarily connected. Artistic integrity doesn't mean what you think it means, so stop using it the same way you hate it to be used against you. Whether a creative product is or is not art is less important than whether you like it. Thanks.

[DrBlingzle]

The dictionary definition of art is work exhibiting human creativity, so yes mass effect is certainly a form of art.

[KaiserShep]

wright1978 wrote...

Art is a elitist word to distinguish certain entertainment from other entertainment people want to look down on. ME3's ending is an atrociously delivered trainwreck in proportions piece of entertainment.
Labelling it as art doesn't make it not an utter trainwreck or excuse it.

Your hyperbole doesn't change the definition of art, and to say that the word itself is elitist is nonsense. People like to get carried away in their criticisms to the point where they become the self-proclaimed authority on all things creative.  Labeling it as art does not depend on whether or not it instills positive feelings in you or anyone else. 

[dorktainian]

the best thing about mass effect is that it can inspire amazing artwork from it's fans.

Modifié par dorktainian, 02 septembre 2013 - 08:56 .

[KaiserShep]

dorktainian wrote...

the best thing about mass effect is that it can inspire amazing artwork from it's fans.

There's some awesome fan art floating around for sure. There's some concept art of the Inusannom(sp?) in armor that is outstanding. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 02 septembre 2013 - 09:00 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

If games are art, then so is Mass Effect.

Ninja Stan wrote...
Ray Muzyka didn't use the term to excuse the game or to shield it from gamers' opinions of the game. He used it to show support for the game and for the team who had an end goal in mind and worked tirelessly to achieve that goal. Whether gamers loved or hated the result was immaterial to this show of support. In this case, "artistic integrity" meant having the dedication and conviction to finish the game on the team's own terms and not letting external pressures affect that conviction.

If anything, "artistic integrity" means BioWare is more likely to resist external pressure to do things in ways gamers might not like, such as the oft-cited "EA interference" and the controversial Hold the Line movement. Keep in mind that this community exerts pressure on BioWare from both the "we love it, do more of it" as well as the "we hate it, never do that again" sides, and "artistic integrity" allows BioWare to design, complete, and market games that, in general, gamers seem to enjoy quite a lot.

In summary, art and liking something aren't necessarily connected. Artistic integrity doesn't mean what you think it means, so stop using it the same way you hate it to be used against you. Whether a creative product is or is not art is less important than whether you like it. Thanks.

EA interference would be "internal pressures" wouldn't it?  Since Bioware is owned by EA.  Budget reallocation (to a multiplayer mode for instance) would definitely hinder what Bioware can afford to do with its singleplayer campaign.

I would say though, that Ray Muzyka referring to "artistic integrity" when addressing the criticism of the ending itself was indeed shielding against gamer criticism. 

Same thing goes with terms like "vocal minority" to describe/marginalize the vast majority of feedback from virtually all online websites where gamers stated their opinions (non-press).  The "majority" of gamers that were "vocal" and on the web had a negative reaction to ME3's ending.  Likewise, the vast majority of gamers thought Mass Effect 3 was excellent up to that point.

That's not to bash Bioware at all, but if talking about how proud someone is of the hard work a team did (and the artistic vision they're sticking to) when that person's supposed to be addressing the negative backlash is a shield in my book...

... or just really bad timing. 

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 02 septembre 2013 - 09:20 .