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Is Mass Effect considered art?


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#126
AlanC9

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Ksandor wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Which corners is it that ME3 is supposed to have cut, exactly?


Ending was contrived, unambigous, forced and rushed. A final battle premise was not there. Really there are tons of threads here detailing this and how it could be both different and similar to ME2 and ME1. World building, new lore, more relevant characters and stories come to mind. There was a even a YouTube video comparing ME and Star Trek, how the endings should be ect. If you are still asking this it is either sarcasm... or what? You did not understand what ME's premise is or you did not grasp the situation? Or you think ME3 just fine?


How are are any of these things "cut corners"? It's not like adding that stuff would have made the game more expensive, or make it take longer. They had plenty of time to wrtie a better ending if they had ever had a better idea for an ending. They didn't have one. Now, maybe with a six month extension someone would have had a wonderful idea? It's not inconceivable, but the extension they did get didn't seen to change much.

Not sure why you're talking about KotOR 2. Bio got an extension from EA for ME3.=, while Obsidian didn't get an extension from LucasArts for KotOR 2

#127
chessplayer209

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JamesFaith wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

I read it. What's the difference between synthesis and becomeing one with the Reapers? I can't tell what becoming one with the Reapers is supposed to mean, but it sounds kinda like synthesis to me. What does it sound like to you?

Anyway, it doesn't sound any better than what we got.


Reapers already are synthesis of biological and syntetic components, so yes, it sound like Synthesis to me too.


No, the difference is that with the "control" ending Shepard becomes one with the Reapers, but spares other organics from going through the same fate (synthesis). He becomes one with the Reapers so he can save other organics from the Reapers (or from being synthesized) by controlling them himself.

Modifié par chessplayer209, 03 septembre 2013 - 11:42 .


#128
spirosz

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Ending arguments again.

#129
AlanC9

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chessplayer209 wrote...

No, the difference is that with the "control" ending Shepard becomes one with the Reapers, but spares other organics from going through the same fate (synthesis). He becomes one with the Reapers so he can save other organics from the Reapers (or from being synthesized) by controlling them himself.


But the "become one with the Reapers" ending is different from the Control ending.

#130
Wolfva2

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Errrr....what does all these ending whinges have to do with whether or not it's art? C'mon, aren't there enough ending threads on the front page? Heck, I just posted in one so I know they're there.

#131
AlanC9

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I think we got here because the question of whether Bio made the ending they wanted to make came up.

#132
Wolfva2

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Well, yeah. Because ending controversy ALWAYS comes up it seems. There could be a topic, "Do you think Garrus' scars make him sexier?" and by page 2 it'd turn into an ending thread. This started out as a kind of interesting debate on art; it could have been a very good, and informative thread filled with various philosophical meanderings. Instead, it's a clone of a half dozen other threads in the first few pages. <shrug> Of course, some might claim that just shows that 'people' want to talk about the endings...but the reality is it's almost always the same handfull of thread derailers. C'mon. Toss the rest of us a bone and let us talk about something OTHER then how much ya'll think the endings suck in these threads that start out about something other then the endings.

Modifié par Wolfva2, 04 septembre 2013 - 05:55 .


#133
Mr. Gogeta34

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Ninja Stan wrote...

I'd consider it external interference because EA is not a part of the development team, nor are they actively creating content for the game.


Makes sense, though if they determine how much budget is available I kinda look at them as honorary members due to their ability to still influence what can be done in the game.

I disagree. Ray's blog post didn't tell people to stop criticizing, nor did it say that any criticisms of the game were wrong. Instead, he focused on his support for the development team at a time when lots of different groups were talking about how bad the game was or how the developers needed to be fired.


In effect, providing support/a shield against the criticism and complaints you mentioned.  Ray delivered a sort of counterweight opinion for Bioware's dev team.  Using the shield does not tell anyone to stop attacking or that they shouldn't attack.

Again, I disagree. Just because those online could easily band together and create a larger voice, they did not necessarily constitute a majority of players, nor did they necessarily speak for a majority of players. From my experience, the "vocal minority" argument was used to address those stating categorically that "a majority," "most fans," or "everyone" hated the endings (or, really, expressed any other opinion about the game) or wanted this or preferred that, so BioWare just has to change the game or correct their mistake or acknowledge the gamers are right. No one can really make that claim except BioWare, and they had gameplay data to back up their statements.

Even in your post, your "majority" is a subset of a vast minority of players (ie. those who complained online and were "vocal"). This is why most any "majority" claimed by those making a complaint can be considered a "minority" of the total number of players. That doesn't mean the complaints are wrong or not important. It means that they have to be taken in certain context, which includes the number of people making those complaints, because lots of people are saying a lot of different things about the game. (And contrary to popular online belief, repeating an argument louder and more frequently does not magically make it more important, true, or valid.)


The main thing here though is that we're talking about the majority of those that were "vocal."  Practically every online place that had a poll or forum viewed ME3's initial endings in a bad light.  I understand that those that are "vocal" are a minority of the total number of people who played the game (but you can't count the complaints or praises of those that aren't vocal, so having that perspective to feedback would be a bit disingenuous..), but of the ones that were vocal... the majority of them had a negative reaction.  The same groups, polls, forums, etc. did not have that reaction to ME2's ending (for example).


And in my book, talking about how proud someone is of the hard work a team did is just that--talking about how proud someone is of the hard work a team did. Ray Muzyka is not obligated to quell the flames of the internet's opinions, nor does every individual negative comment require or deserve rebuttal or acknowledgement (see again my comment about "vocal minority," above). But if you wish to believe otherwise, that's your prerogative.


Whether intentional or not, Ray supporting the "vision" is a sort of counterweight/shield to the consumer feedback Bioware was getting that felt otherwise (nothing wrong with that per-se).  The majority of the vocal population may not have liked where the ending went, but Ray supported it.  It's not 'just' the hard work that Ray praised, otherwise I would agree with you.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 04 septembre 2013 - 06:42 .


#134
McFlurry598

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spirosz wrote...

Ending arguments again.

Yea, I was afraid this might happen. Someone always brings up the endings.<_<

OT: I believe it is art, whether you like the endings or not. According to the definition of 'art' that I provided on the original post, I'm quite sure that most video games, including Mass Effect can be and are art.

Modifié par McFlurry598, 05 septembre 2013 - 10:39 .


#135
agentN7

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Some of it is art, alot of it isn't. Alot of the graphics and characters concepts and texts where quite artistic. However, the amount of plagiarising from Bioware was borderng on the un-creative. Even the crucible was taken from a British directed sci-fi film. There was just so much in there that Bioware borrowed.

#136
AlanC9

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agentN7 wrote...

Some of it is art, alot of it isn't. Alot of the graphics and characters concepts and texts where quite artistic. However, the amount of plagiarising from Bioware was borderng on the un-creative. Even the crucible was taken from a British directed sci-fi film. There was just so much in there that Bioware borrowed.


Which film? Doesn't surprise me, though. Bio's always lifted stuff.

#137
agentN7

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AlanC9 wrote...

agentN7 wrote...

Some of it is art, alot of it isn't. Alot of the graphics and characters concepts and texts where quite artistic. However, the amount of plagiarising from Bioware was borderng on the un-creative. Even the crucible was taken from a British directed sci-fi film. There was just so much in there that Bioware borrowed.


Which film? Doesn't surprise me, though. Bio's always lifted stuff.




The concept and similarities in design come from a film from 2007 called 'Sunshine'. Which is quite ironic, as the ending in ME3 was effected by over ambition, just like the whole film i've mentioned.

#138
JamesFaith

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agentN7 wrote...

The concept and similarities in design come from a film from 2007 called 'Sunshine'. Which is quite ironic, as the ending in ME3 was effected by over ambition, just like the whole film i've mentioned.


What similarities?

Crucible basic design - fat tube with ball at the end
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

Sunshine ship - thin collection of modules with big reverse dish at the end

https://encrypted-tb...f2Xv2xlJjcY4Y-h

Modifié par JamesFaith, 05 septembre 2013 - 06:20 .


#139
AlanC9

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 Hell, if that's the standard of evidence I'll claim they ripped off 2001. The Crucible looks more like the Discovery than it looks like the Icarus II.

Modifié par AlanC9, 06 septembre 2013 - 02:57 .


#140
BattleCop88

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It's art(sy).

Modifié par BattleCop88, 06 septembre 2013 - 09:09 .


#141
Morty Smith

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What is art?





















BeWee don´t hurt me, ...




















don´t hurt me, no more.

#142
Nightwriter

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Oh my sides.

Someone should record a version of that song with those lyrics. Only replace BeWee with something else because it's weird.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 06 septembre 2013 - 02:44 .


#143
KaiserShep

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JamesFaith wrote...

agentN7 wrote...

The concept and similarities in design come from a film from 2007 called 'Sunshine'. Which is quite ironic, as the ending in ME3 was effected by over ambition, just like the whole film i've mentioned.


What similarities?

Crucible basic design - fat tube with ball at the end
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

Sunshine ship - thin collection of modules with big reverse dish at the end

https://encrypted-tb...f2Xv2xlJjcY4Y-h



Come on. The Crucible obviously lifts from two very classic designs: a lollipop, and Cloud City.

Image IPB

#144
chessplayer209

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I don't understand how anyone could look at some of the more emotionally moving cutscenes from Mass Effect and conclude this game is not an artistic creation.

#145
Xamufam

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chessplayer209 wrote...

I don't understand how anyone could look at some of the more emotionally moving cutscenes from Mass Effect and conclude this game is not an artistic creation.


For ART in stories you need:
Suspension of disbelief this should not be broken.
Secondary belief:

Inside it, what [the author] relates is 'true:' it accords with the laws of
that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside.
The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather
art, has failed. You are then out in the Primary World again, looking at
the little abortive Secondary World from the outside. -J.R.R. Tolkien



You have to reach it with logic & reason in an socratic exercise, not flimsy conjecture
Mass effect is a talky techy universe so details matters
You needs narrative coherence, things should not pop up from nowhere
don't introduce a new main goal & new character.
Don’t change voice, tone or attitude. An ending will
feel tacked on if the voice of the narrator suddenly sounds alien to the
voice that’s been consistent for the previous 80,000 words.
Don't force emotional drama, that does not fit

This vid explains it.

EC

Themes
Why the ending is broken
The dos and don'ts of endings
www.writersdigest.com/whats-new/the-dos-and-donts-of-novel-endings

Modifié par Troxa, 06 septembre 2013 - 09:29 .


#146
JamesFaith

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@ Troxa

You are speaking about QUALITY principles of art, not about definition of art itself.

Work donť become art by its quality, but by it nature.

Modifié par JamesFaith, 06 septembre 2013 - 09:27 .


#147
Nole

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A video game is not art. Ugh.

#148
Xamufam

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JamesFaith wrote...

@ Troxa

You are speaking about QUALITY principles of art, not about definition of art itself.

Work donť become art by its quality, but by it nature.

When it comes to litteratur & story telling the rules change
And a video game is a product.

#149
phillip100

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WittingEight65 wrote...

A video game is not art. Ugh.

How is a video game not art?

#150
AlanC9

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Troxa wrote...


For ART in stories you need:
Suspension of disbelief this should not be broken.
Secondary belief:

Inside it, what [the author] relates is 'true:' it accords with the laws of
that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside.
The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken; the magic, or rather
art, has failed. You are then out in the Primary World again, looking at
the little abortive Secondary World from the outside. -J.R.R. Tolkien



You have to reach it with logic & reason in an socratic exercise, not flimsy conjecture
Mass effect is a talky techy universe so details matters
You needs narrative coherence, things should not pop up from nowhere
don't introduce a new main goal & new character.
Don’t change voice, tone or attitude. An ending will
feel tacked on if the voice of the narrator suddenly sounds alien to the
voice that’s been consistent for the previous 80,000 words.
Don't force emotional drama, that does not fit


I can think of a work of art that violates every single one of these principles.  (edited for clarity)

Modifié par AlanC9, 06 septembre 2013 - 10:14 .