127 réponses à ce sujet

[LPPrince]

NG+ would be amazeballs, but its no silver bullet.

[crimzontearz]

Herr Uhl wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

1 EA won't allow it
2 EA won't allow it
3 bioware already said no as far as I know (and EA will likely not allow it)

Next?

What if they announced NG+?

if they did announce that and Gaider himself said there will be an optional happy ending for sure I will GLADLY drop any other of my preordered games (likely Ryse) and preorder DAI now

Modifié par crimzontearz, 02 septembre 2013 - 04:12 .

[Tarek]

meh they will find something else to nag about

[AllThatJazz]

I think releasing a really excellent product out of the box will silence, or at least mollify, many critics. Decent story, compelling characters, robust gameplay with enough depth and complexity to satisfy more hardcore gamers while still being enjoyable for everyone else and a satisfying conclusion will redeem Bioware in many eyes, imo. A decently long game and lush visuals won't hurt either. They've released some really positive stuff so far, let's hope it goes the distance

As for everyone else? There will always be people who hate because of the presence/absence of MP (I'm not bothered either way); because of D1DLC (I don't like it massively, probably won't buy it) or DLC in general (I like it) or frankly whatever Bio/EA thinks up to make more money from the game; because of the absence or even presence (maybe if a console gamer) of mods; because of the inclusion of gay romances or romance in general; or just because Bioware is owned by EA.

Bio needs to concentrate on making the best game they can, I think, rather than using up resources/not making enough of the resources they have throwing sops to groups who would quite possibly dislike them anyway.

[Fast Jimmy]

crimzontearz wrote...

1 EA won't allow it
2 EA won't allow it
3 bioware already said no as far as I know (and EA will likely not allow it)

Next?

As far as #3 goes, I'm guessing you didn't read anything I wrote, since it does not mention giving a toolkit.

[MrTijger]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

So I began to think - what would be the Silver Bullet to silence the detractors?

There isn't one. 

Well....shooting them with a silver bullet might work?

[Ianamus]

I'm not actually sure there will be multiplayer at this point, if only because the game already has so much going on I don't think they will have the resources/time to implement a multiplayer mode as well. EA seemed to be interested in Skyrim's sucess, and part of that was that they did not waste resources on a lackluster multiplayer mode. Maybe they learnt something. 

I don't think anything Bioware says will make those people who hate them change their tune. I'm sure there are some who will actively criticise Inquisition when it released, even if it does live up to all these expectations and is a fantastic game. All you can do is ignore them and just enjoy the game yourself.

Modifié par EJ107, 02 septembre 2013 - 04:24 .

[Navasha]

Yeah, there is simply nothing that will ever silence all critics. And honestly, Bioware shouldn't feel the need to try to even try. Trying to be everything to everyone generally makes for a very bad game. Even the things you list are even to my mind compromises that shouldn't be made.

No Day 1 DLC? I certainly don't want that. I demand Day 1 DLC! Why should a company delay making extra content for the game because some people can't grasp the concept that it was ADDITIONAL content. The only argument against Day 1 DLC that it I ever see is that they believe it is content cut from the game. Since this is blatantly false, why should Bioware ever stop doing it? Just to please a handful of disgruntled people that don't want to pay more for a better game? Is that the crowd a company should be aiming at pleasing?

[MrTijger]

Ok, reality check. There are people (and its not just one) out there who send death threaths over balance changes, circulate petitions to have developers fired (or their rage will have no bounds or something), spread hate and lies over usually totally imagined slights to their ego and so on and so on.

One silver bullet? I think you might want to put in a bulk order and use them in actual firearms, as long as people can post this stuff anonymously they will do so,period.

[crimzontearz]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

1 EA won't allow it
2 EA won't allow it
3 bioware already said no as far as I know (and EA will likely not allow it)

Next?

As far as #3 goes, I'm guessing you didn't read anything I wrote, since it does not mention giving a toolkit.

my point was that Bioware always discouraged nodding if modding tools were not released (or at least that was my experience with ME)

[crimzontearz]

Navasha wrote...

Yeah, there is simply nothing that will ever silence all critics. And honestly, Bioware shouldn't feel the need to try to even try. Trying to be everything to everyone generally makes for a very bad game. Even the things you list are even to my mind compromises that shouldn't be made.

No Day 1 DLC? I certainly don't want that. I demand Day 1 DLC! Why should a company delay making extra content for the game because some people can't grasp the concept that it was ADDITIONAL content. The only argument against Day 1 DLC that it I ever see is that they believe it is content cut from the game. Since this is blatantly false, why should Bioware ever stop doing it? Just to please a handful of disgruntled people that don't want to pay more for a better game? Is that the crowd a company should be aiming at pleasing?

there is a HUGE difference between "additional" and "not done with the same base budget"

[AngryFrozenWater]

If the topic didn't use words like "haters" and "detractors" then maybe I would take it seriously. Now it just looks like an attempt to invalidate opinions by attaching emotion to it. This gets really old, Jimmy.

[Fast Jimmy]

AllThatJazz wrote...

I think releasing a really excellent product out of the box will silence, or at least mollify, many critics. Decent story, compelling characters, robust gameplay with enough depth and complexity to satisfy more hardcore gamers while still being enjoyable for everyone else and a satisfying conclusion will redeem Bioware in many eyes, imo. A decently long game and lush visuals won't hurt either. They've released some really positive stuff so far, let's hope it goes the distance

As for everyone else? There will always be people who hate because of the presence/absence of MP (I'm not bothered either way); because of D1DLC (I don't like it massively, probably won't buy it) or DLC in general (I like it) or frankly whatever Bio/EA thinks up to make more money from the game; because of the absence or even presence (maybe if a console gamer) of mods; because of the inclusion of gay romances or romance in general; or just because Bioware is owned by EA.

Bio needs to concentrate on making the best game they can, I think, rather than using up resources/not making enough of the resources they have throwing sops to groups who would quite possibly dislike them anyway.

My viewpoint is that the game itself could be the most amazing in the world and many will not play it based on principle alone. People may say "DA2, ME3 and TOR were three strikes for me - I've been ripped off too many times" or "Bethesda gives free modkits - they know how to treat their fans" or "CRProjekt gives away free DLC - they don't nickel and dime their fans" or any other number if statements. If Bioware makes a fantastic game, but DA:I still has all the business hall marks of Bioware's most recent games, it will prevent many from even giving the game a chance, saying that "well, ME3 had perfect review scores and it was trash" or "everyone knows EA hires people to write positive reviews for their games, so I can't trust guess can review sites."

The best way to show you are better than your competition is to be as good as they are on their strong fronts - like a DLC policy that is fan friendly, or support for the modding community that feels better treated by other companies - and then succeed in your strong fronts, such as a deeper character and storyline than Bethesda's sandboxes, while more character customization and control than The Witcher's set protagonist. 

Bioware is aiming to succeed on their strong points, based on what we have seen in the past month. If they could tweak some of their business practices around the issues I bring up, it would make a case that is stronger than even thegame's  quality - it would be a testament that the policies that led to the other games resulting in negative responses are being changed across all fronts. 

[Iosev]

So far Bioware has shown that they've listened to many of the complaints and addressed them. Racial choice for the protagonist, tactical overhead camera, companion armor customization, and more are all back, and I'm actually surprised they've even included one of the minor features that I was hoping for in armor dyes.

With that said, Bioware will never be able to silence all critics, that's simply impossible, and attempting to compromise their vision for their game in a futile effort to do so would likely result in disaster. Let's also not forget that while elements like MP aren't popular here, there are fans who do enjoy MP components (such as myself).

[Fast Jimmy]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

If the topic didn't use words like "haters" and "detractors" then maybe I would take it seriously. Now it just looks like an attempt to invalidate opinions by attaching emotion to it. This gets really old, Jimmy.

I'm trying to speak the BSN language. Anyone who says anything negative about a Bioware game or one of its features is a hater, obviously. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Navasha wrote...

Yeah, there is simply nothing that will ever silence all critics. And honestly, Bioware shouldn't feel the need to try to even try. Trying to be everything to everyone generally makes for a very bad game. Even the things you list are even to my mind compromises that shouldn't be made.

No Day 1 DLC? I certainly don't want that. I demand Day 1 DLC! Why should a company delay making extra content for the game because some people can't grasp the concept that it was ADDITIONAL content. The only argument against Day 1 DLC that it I ever see is that they believe it is content cut from the game. Since this is blatantly false, why should Bioware ever stop doing it? Just to please a handful of disgruntled people that don't want to pay more for a better game? Is that the crowd a company should be aiming at pleasing?

I'd just like to point out that if you think it is merely a "handful" of people, then I would disagree with you.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

If the topic didn't use words like "haters" and "detractors" then maybe I would take it seriously. Now it just looks like an attempt to invalidate opinions by attaching emotion to it. This gets really old, Jimmy.

I'm trying to speak the BSN language. Anyone who says anything negative about a Bioware game or one of its features is a hater, obviously.

I rather wish you use arguments than speaking the BSN language. You have great ideas. Go for it. But don't lower yourself by using nonsense like that.

[werewoof]

this game could literally materialize 100 dollar bills onto your desk every morning and thered still be people complaining because its unrealistic to have 4 bisexual friends all at once or because its too realistic that you can roll out of the way of a fireball instead of just taking the hit because tactics

[Herr Uhl]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

If the topic didn't use words like "haters" and "detractors" then maybe I would take it seriously. Now it just looks like an attempt to invalidate opinions by attaching emotion to it. This gets really old, Jimmy.

I'm trying to speak the BSN language. Anyone who says anything negative about a Bioware game or one of its features is a hater, obviously.

I rather wish you use arguments than speaking the BSN language. You have great ideas. Go for it. But don't lower yourself by using nonsense like that.

Oh please, stop being so dramatic. There are plenty of people that will dislike DA games simply because it is bioware, or because it is part of EA. Their skepticism may be valid, but short of having them play the game the minds will be hard to change.

And even if they do deliver a good game, there will be people feeling betrayed by bioware for taking away their favourite feature or focusing on the wrong things or having the wrong art direction. Trying to get everyone on your side is naive.

A better way to do this thread is to spitball ideas for how to make the game better. There is no universally liked game.

[AllThatJazz]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

AllThatJazz wrote...

I think releasing a really excellent product out of the box will silence, or at least mollify, many critics. Decent story, compelling characters, robust gameplay with enough depth and complexity to satisfy more hardcore gamers while still being enjoyable for everyone else and a satisfying conclusion will redeem Bioware in many eyes, imo. A decently long game and lush visuals won't hurt either. They've released some really positive stuff so far, let's hope it goes the distance

As for everyone else? There will always be people who hate because of the presence/absence of MP (I'm not bothered either way); because of D1DLC (I don't like it massively, probably won't buy it) or DLC in general (I like it) or frankly whatever Bio/EA thinks up to make more money from the game; because of the absence or even presence (maybe if a console gamer) of mods; because of the inclusion of gay romances or romance in general; or just because Bioware is owned by EA.

Bio needs to concentrate on making the best game they can, I think, rather than using up resources/not making enough of the resources they have throwing sops to groups who would quite possibly dislike them anyway.

My viewpoint is that the game itself could be the most amazing in the world and many will not play it based on principle alone. People may say "DA2, ME3 and TOR were three strikes for me - I've been ripped off too many times" or "Bethesda gives free modkits - they know how to treat their fans" or "CRProjekt gives away free DLC - they don't nickel and dime their fans" or any other number if statements. If Bioware makes a fantastic game, but DA:I still has all the business hall marks of Bioware's most recent games, it will prevent many from even giving the game a chance, saying that "well, ME3 had perfect review scores and it was trash" or "everyone knows EA hires people to write positive reviews for their games, so I can't trust guess can review sites."

The best way to show you are better than your competition is to be as good as they are on their strong fronts - like a DLC policy that is fan friendly, or support for the modding community that feels better treated by other companies - and then succeed in your strong fronts, such as a deeper character and storyline than Bethesda's sandboxes, while more character customization and control than The Witcher's set protagonist. 

Bioware is aiming to succeed on their strong points, based on what we have seen in the past month. If they could tweak some of their business practices around the issues I bring up, it would make a case that is stronger than even thegame's  quality - it would be a testament that the policies that led to the other games resulting in negative responses are being changed across all fronts. 

I disagree with your first point. I've already seen on other forums (NeoGaf being one of them) posters who had 'sworn off' Bio games after DA2, TOR and ME3, now interested again. And that's just after what's been revealed so far, over a year from release. If Inquisition is a great game, and gets reviewed favourably by players, that's a fair bit of the battle won, I think. 

I know that modding is very, very important to the people who love it, but I'm not sure it's important enough to enough people to a) make it cost effective for Bio to provide if it's extremely expensive and time-consuming to do so or make it a viable part of any silver bullet given that a comparatively small amount of the playerbase is very passionate about it. Don't get me wrong, I would love to play mods for Inquisition, but I'm just not sure it's silver bullet material.

As for MP - tons of people played ME3 MP and loved it, more (like myself) aren't sufficiently bothered to have it as a deal-breaker. If Bio decides not to do MP for Inquisition (and that's still a possibility), it really shouldn't be for the sake of the folks who hate it (it would be enough, I think, to not have it impact on SP) because that would be shooting themselves in the foot in terms of the new players it could bring in and the revenue it could generate.

D1DLC is the area where I agree there could be some give, and perhaps some measurable effect given recent criticism of EA as a whole. Personally, I liked the Shale model - D1DLC free for owners of a new game, with perhaps a smaller free dlc for those who preorder, with either another dlc redemption code (for future dlc) or even a free season pass for owners of a Collectors' Edition. But even here - do we know how much Bioware makes from D1DLC, and is the loss of potential sales worth it, just to generate some goodwill that even according to your own argument wouldn't be enough on its own? And do we know for sure how much control Bioware has over its dlc release/pricing anyway? If it isn't really Bio's call, then it comes back to the problem of Bioware being owned by EA, which isn't something they can do anything about.

[d4eaming]

tiktac wrote...

this game could literally materialize 100 dollar bills onto your desk every morning and thered still be people complaining because its unrealistic to have 4 bisexual friends all at once or because its too realistic that you can roll out of the way of a fireball instead of just taking the hit because tactics

I agree with this. There are people who simply want to hate DA, Bioware, and EA, and they do not care what the company does to fix all of their (perceived) mistakes. They want to hate everything that comes out of the game, they want to see the game fail so they can act all smug "I told you so", they want to see Bioware go under because they are so personally affronted by bisexual companions, voiced protag, not being able to ruthlessly murder every single NPC, and oh god the horror, Anders!, that they will not be satisfied until everyone else is as miserable as themselves and they can be assured that no one else gets to enjoy anything by BW ever again because they don't like anything BW does.

Why the hell those people are even on these boards I cannot fathom. If you are that miserable, go somewhere else and find a new hobby to enjoy.

[mupp3tz]

Honestly think that the best silver bullet is if the story delivers well according to the majority. There will always be small nuances that people complain about. It's normal for someone to find something to complain about despite everything.. but, if the game receives great reviews and word-of-mouth, then you can't really ask for better. Some cult classic games had irritating gameplay quirks, but became popular because they delivered an engaging plot.

Modifié par M U P P 3 T Z, 02 septembre 2013 - 06:23 .

[Giubba]

d4eaming wrote...

tiktac wrote...

this game could literally materialize 100 dollar bills onto your desk every morning and thered still be people complaining because its unrealistic to have 4 bisexual friends all at once or because its too realistic that you can roll out of the way of a fireball instead of just taking the hit because tactics

I agree with this. There are people who simply want to hate DA, Bioware, and EA, and they do not care what the company does to fix all of their (perceived) mistakes. They want to hate everything that comes out of the game, they want to see the game fail so they can act all smug "I told you so", they want to see Bioware go under because they are so personally affronted by bisexual companions, voiced protag, not being able to ruthlessly murder every single NPC, and oh god the horror, Anders!, that they will not be satisfied until everyone else is as miserable as themselves and they can be assured that no one else gets to enjoy anything by BW ever again because they don't like anything BW does.

Why the hell those people are even on these boards I cannot fathom. If you are that miserable, go somewhere else and find a new hobby to enjoy.

+1

[Hiemoth]

I will kind of admit directly that I am somewhat baffled by the OP. It almost comes across as stating that people with negative opinion should be appeased to, even at the expense of people with positive opinions, just because they spent their time complaining about it. So I apologize if some of my comments seem a bit antagonistic, it isn't my intention, I'm just really confused by the post.

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Howdy do, BSN.



We've seen a LOT about DA:I revealed in the past month, especially in this last weekend. I'd say at this long, there is honestly so much information floating around that no one person truly has a grip on all the new developments that have come out for date. While some of them raise some questions of even concerns, most of it works to make many different players and fans VERY excited about the game.

That being said... Bioware still doesn't have a sterling name in the industry and across the Internet. There are still many haters out there, haters who still aren't impressed, despite all of the news that has come out that make DA:I sound lie a fantastic game if it can live up to its goals and promises.

How exactly does Bioware have a negative reputation in the industry? I mean it might be true as far anyone can know, but unless there was suddenly a post about game develops naming Bioware one of the most negative forces in the industry that seems like going for a really unnecessary hyperbole. Secondly across the Internet? How many big level game releases can you name from the past two years that do not have people complaining them across the internets or starting posts going "Am I the only one who is..."?

So I have come up with a list of three things. If these three things could be done, coupled with the news we've already heard, it would work to leave Bioware's reputation back to its sterling quality and also prove that they are still one of the most dominant RPG developers in the industry.

1) Come out and state there will be zero MP.

While many fans great enjoy MP, including ME3's experience with it, it is still makes Bioware an easy target for accusations of both "hack-n-slash gameplay" as well as opening the door to microtransactions.

While the merits of both of these, and MP in general, can be stated and argued, outright taking it off the table will send a message that will shut the mouths of many critics who see it as a direct route to some of the problems ME3 had.

So because there are people who dislike it and complain about, the people who like it don't matter? Especially considering that the MP probably extended the time people spent playing the game. And I say this as someone who didn't play the MP.

2) No Paid D1DLC

Yes, DLC as a model is totally valid, Bioware deserves to be paid for their effort and there is nothing that forces players to buy or play D1DLC, nor does it mean it was inherently content cut from the main game... but that will stop no one from stating it is fact. The best way to stop these types of conversations and accusations? Make the D1DLC free with new copies. This is how DA:O did it, when the game was delayed nine months and allowed them to finish the content for Shale. Something tells me that with the extra year, Bioware can finish up a character who was going to be cut and make that as a DLC and give it to fans for free. It would be a symbolic gesture that would go a long way to avoiding the mud slinging and instant comparisons to other recent Bioware games.

 This I can kind of see, although I have always gotten the day 1 DLC free as I have pre-ordered the games. But again, I am confused. You state that you understand the model and the principles behind it, but then state that they should appease to people who complain about it?

3) Some level of mod support

Yes, a modkit is off the table. It anyone has been following this conversation over the past year, this comes as no surprise. All of the third party tool obstacles that existed with DA2 are still in play, as well as the added complications of frostbite and its inherent complexity that makes modding incredibly difficult. BUT... one can support modding without directly supplying a modkit.

For instance, removing a competitive MP aspect as mentioned above would remove any advantage of using mods, allowing players who engage and use them to avoid being banned, like what was seen in Battlefield 3, a game that also used Frostbite. Also, providing support on the forums as well as some said instructions to help modders get a head start could be a big help starting out and could be seen as encouraging the community, despite not being able to provide the tools. After all, if Bioware is not providing a toolkit solely to "sell more DLC," wouldn't being able to point to step-by-step instructions provided by Bioware to begin modding be a good way to prove otherwise?

And again I am confused, how can Bioware provide step-by-step modding support without releasing the modding tools? And hasn't it been touched several times already that extensive modding with the Frostbite engine is almost impossible?

These are all (VERY) tall orders, I realize. And it may even seem greedy for me to ask, since Bioware has given so much in terms of content and features beyond what many had expected for the game.

BUT if Bioware were to provide these concessions, it would not only delight fans, but it would be able to completely and irrevocably shut down 99% of the criticism and defacement that is likely to show up in full force if any of the above turns out not to be true.   

And again, who are these fans? Are people who spent their times on the boards about how Bioware is making horrible cashcow games fans of those games? I understand that Bioware wants to get as a large an audience as possible, but why should it be done only appeasing those with negative opinions? And if Bioware thinks that some of the complaints are not based in fact, then why should Bioware go out of their way to appease those complaints?

Again, sorry if this came across a bit accusatory. Not intended and I tried to avoid it, but the curse of internet interaction is always the possibility of misunderstanding. Also, my apologies if I had misunderstood something.