333 réponses à ce sujet

[jtav]

I don't think the death of EDI and the geth is nearly as contrived as it's made out to be. Destroy is the choice that tells the Catalyst to go to hell and we don't need it or its "solution." And organics really, really don't. Even the relays can eventually be comprehended and rebuilt. But the synthetics do need the Reapers. Take away their Reaper code and the geth go back to being near-mindless and concerned only with survival. EDI reverts to Hannibal. They die, essentially. If you want to reject the Reapers you can, but that means rejecting their toys too and either rebuilding them yourself or doing without. So EDI and the geth dying makes thematic sense.

[MegaSovereign]

Sure, it's not thematically contrived...but in terms of logistics it doesn't make much sense.

[Iakus]

 EDI and the geth reverting to ealier pre-Reaper states might make sense.  But their unavoidable deaths makes no sense at all.  They are all different kinds of AIs from different areas and using different tech by different species.  A universal "off button" for all of them is completely unreasonable.

[General TSAR]

Yep, what was destroyed can be rebuilt.

But personally I rather the Enhanced Defense Intelligence and the Geth be confined to the void of defunct AI projects.

[Br3admax]

BioWare couldn't just let us win. No that would be way to simple for BioWare.

[jtav]

@iakus

I'd say their pre-Reaper states are sufficiently different as to say the loss is a death. Without the Reaper code, they are little better than animals. Even EDI says "the Illusive Man ordered my creation years ago" when listing the things others might count as alive.

[Iakus]

jtav wrote...

@iakus

I'd say their pre-Reaper states are sufficiently different as to say the loss is a death. Without the Reaper code, they are little better than animals. Even EDI says "the Illusive Man ordered my creation years ago" when listing the things others might count as alive.

Except EDI  was already a fledgling AI before the Illusive Man further upgraded her (with hardware, I might add, not software) EDI might not be as advanced or as intelligent an AI without her upgrades, but she's still be sentient.

And while the geth would become a consensus again rather than individual AIs, they'd still be what they were before.  Though again, reduced due to losses from the attack on their structure.  And may, on their own, develop to the point where they can become individuals again, if they so chose.

Modifié par iakus, 02 septembre 2013 - 05:38 .

[KaiserShep]

The geth would be basic VI's individually pre-reaper code, but we already saw how little they really needed the reaper code under normal circumstances. Nothing would really be lost if all that happened to the geth was reverting back to their former selves.

[Br3admax]

Alive=/=sentient. Ants are alive. Are they sentient? She had the survival instinct, but that's about it.

[General TSAR]

Br3ad wrote...

Alive=/=sentient. Ants are alive. Are they sentient? It had the survival instinct, but that's about it.

Fixed for you.

[Br3admax]

Oh yeah, thanks man. I almost lost myself in my sympathy. Wouldn't want that, now would we? 

Modifié par Br3ad, 02 septembre 2013 - 05:38 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 It's not really sensible. Between the geth, the Reapers, and EDI, it's targetting three very different things. That they're all AI is the only thing they have in common, but how does a wave of energy tell apart AI from... everything else in its wake?


That said, contrary to popular opinion. I don't believe it was put in there to steer people away from choosing it. At least, I do not think the writers at hand thought it would be as big an issue to people as it turned out to be. You can actively choose (in ME3) to deny the notion that synthetics are alive at all and actively antagonize the geth. The player can dislike EDI the squadmate as he/she dislikes any other. If it's a matter of forcing genocide and character death to keep you from choosing something, they picked two of the least effective targets possible. If they wanted to put something in there just to push you away, they could do far worse. Like, say... choosing [x] will cost Shepard's life, and all asari in the galaxy.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 02 septembre 2013 - 05:40 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

I don't think Reaper parts are solely responsible for EDI and the Geth's development. Cerbrus used Reaper algorithms to help create EDI but I doubt simply slapping those on the Hannibal system is what created her, the process was likely much more complex, I doubt she'd go completely back to the Hannibal setting. Same with the Geth, Legion was a advanced model even before the Reaper upgrades, those just helped him attain individualism, they'd loose that ability and fall back on interdependence but so long as they have sufficient numbers and platforms/server hubs capable of supporting the amount of programs required they'd still be more than being near mindless as you describe them.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 02 septembre 2013 - 05:45 .

[General TSAR]

Br3ad wrote...

Oh yeah, thanks man. I almost lost myself in my sympathy. Wouldn't want that, now would we? 

It's quite alright my good man, the loss of military equipment is regretible but it is just equipment that can be replaced.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I wish Destroy was more able to verbalize telling the Catalyst to go to hell and calling him out that his solutions are unneeded.

And rejecting their technology after they've been destroyed just seems like bitterness on your part (I'm sorry, it does) to rejecting the Reapers. It's the same with the relays being damaged, though that's easy to bypass in headcanon.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 02 septembre 2013 - 06:05 .

[Sir DeLoria]

Well, the Geth are already dead and I don't care about EDI so...

[Sir DeLoria]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I wish Destroy was more able to verbalize telling the Catalyst to go to hell and calling him out that his solutions are unneeded.

Yep, pretty much.

[GreyLycanTrope]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I wish Destroy was more able to verbalize telling the Catalyst to go to hell and calling him out that his solutions are unneeded.

Refuse comes closest to that really. Great speech...followed by death.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 02 septembre 2013 - 06:06 .

[Br3admax]

Let me just finish this discussion for both of you:

"I disagree."
"No, I disagree more."
"No."
"No-er"
No-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er-er"
"No-est."

We're done now.

[The Night Mammoth]

Greylycantrope wrote...

I don't think Reaper parts are solely responsible for EDI and the Geth's development. Cerbrus used Reaper algorithms to help create EDI but I doubt simply slapping those on the Hannibal system is what created her, the process was likely much more complex, I doubt she'd go completely back to the Hannibal setting. Same with the Geth, Legion was a advanced model even before the Reaper upgrades, those just helped him attain individualism, they'd loose that ability and fall back on interdependence but so long as they have sufficient numbers and platforms/server hubs capable of supporting the amount of programs required they'd still be more than being near mindless as you describe them.

Reaper code doesn't really work as an explanation for Destroy at all, in my mind, because it only works if EDI's based on it, which seems unlikely considering what she's actually is, and that she and every Reaper share the same base code, which all seems unlikely considering they're both AI's that have evolved a great deal since their birth, and the Reapers aren't even really just computers with code in them. Also, the geth wouldn't die if some of their code was deleted.

Really, the Crucible targets synthetics just because it does. 

[GreyLycanTrope]

The Night Mammoth wrote...
Reaper code doesn't really work as an explanation for Destroy at all, in my mind, because it only works if EDI's based on it, which seems unlikely considering what she's actually is, and that she and every Reaper share the same base code, which all seems unlikely considering they're both AI's that have evolved a great deal since their birth, and the Reapers aren't even really just computers with code in them. Also, the geth wouldn't die if some of their code was deleted.

Really, the Crucible targets synthetics just because it does. 

I agree.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Greylycantrope wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

I wish Destroy was more able to verbalize telling the Catalyst to go to hell and calling him out that his solutions are unneeded.

Refuse comes closest to that really. Great speech...followed by death.

It sounded rather dumb to me.

[JamesFaith]

iakus wrote...

 EDI and the geth reverting to ealier pre-Reaper states might make sense.  But their unavoidable deaths makes no sense at all.  They are all different kinds of AIs from different areas and using different tech by different species.  A universal "off button" for all of them is completely unreasonable.

This would depend on one major thing - was Reaper code only addition to Geth code or replacing /addition+replacing of some of its vital parts?

Because in second case will Geth in Destroy suddenly missing vital components and their programming simply collaps. When you upgrade your comp from Millenium to Vista and then erased Vista, comp wouldn't return to Millenium without new instalation.

[Br3admax]

Lol, someone saying that Liara can give a good speech about how stupid they all were is hilarious.

[Iakus]

JamesFaith wrote...

iakus wrote...

 EDI and the geth reverting to ealier pre-Reaper states might make sense.  But their unavoidable deaths makes no sense at all.  They are all different kinds of AIs from different areas and using different tech by different species.  A universal "off button" for all of them is completely unreasonable.

This would depend on one major thing - was Reaper code only addition to Geth code or replacing /addition+replacing of some of its vital parts?

Because in second case will Geth in Destroy suddenly missing vital components and their programming simply collaps. When you upgrade your comp from Millenium to Vista and then erased Vista, comp wouldn't return to Millenium without new instalation.

It was always referred to as an upgrade, not a new system, which a new OS would be more akin to.  Besides which the geth keep previous iterations of themselves stored in archives specifically to combat malware attacks.  One would think rolling themselves back would be a forseeable countermeasure.