333 réponses à ce sujet

[Reorte]

Kiwiphoenix wrote...

Always assumed that Destroy simply fried the complex electronics that allowed intelligent machines to think, EMP-style. So it makes sense that all synthetics would get fried.

That doesn't work. If you make peace on Rannoch Tali tells you that geth are uploading to some quarians suits so the electronics in those must be sufficiently complex (even if they aren't normally used to run software that complex). Trashed suits thanks to Destroy would be seriously bad news for the quarians yet Tali seems completely unaffected (and is there still a Rannoch slide? I don't remember).

[teh DRUMPf!!]

iakus wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

That detail is a bit irrelevant, anyway. If the Catalyst doesn't believe organic civilization will outlast all synthetic threats, then why should he not use synthetics the same way as it already uses organics (brainwashed minions for dirty work)? People like to point to that as if it's an "Aha!" kind of thing. It isn't. It means nothing, aside from the Reapers being ruthless.

To quote Garrus: "When has that ever mattered in war?"

Because that makes them complete hypocrites?

Okay. I'm not sure which of the two Q's you're responding to here, but it's not "hypocritical" if the Catalyst (and, by extension, the Reapers) are operating on the idea: the conflict is inevitable, and peace won't last. If letting it fester will lead to the problem you're trying to solve, then facilitating it yourself to promote your solution is actually logically consistent.

The only real counter to this would be, "this time will be different." It probably wouldn't have been, though, in Javik's cycle.

[KaiserShep]

Imanol de Tafalla wrote...

iakus wrote...

You mean the war the Reapers themselves instigated? 

The Metacon War, along with the Geth conflict, were not instigated by the Reapers.  

I am not quite sure what you're getting at.

The reapers hijacked the Zha'til, and used the geth to wage war with the rest of the galaxy when they preferred to simply be left alone after the Morning War. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 04 septembre 2013 - 06:10 .

[AlanC9]

CrutchCricket wrote...

It's different from Synthesis because in Synthesis you're a) accepting the holokid's bull**** as true and your decision is necessarily a direct response to it. Destroy and Control barely acknowledge the holokid's babble. Synthesis holds it as true and responds by removing the offending distinction. That's a main effect. That actually can't be ignored. But all synthetics dying when we were only trying to kill our enemies? Tragic, but incidental. It's not a theme, it's collateral damage.

I suppose a Shepard theoretically could be just so into transhumanism that she skips point a) and just goes right to free bionic upgrades for everybody, yay! But I'm not sure I've ever seen a player do this except when metagaming to rack up one playthrough with every ending chosen

[CronoDragoon]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Purpose and emotional stance hasn't necessarily anything to do with themes. Yet again: it does not matter if you, personally, hates synthetics or even if your Shepard does. The theme lies in the action itself and its presentation. You don't influence those.

The reasons for why a character does something are ALWAYS important when talking about themes. I really don't know how you can support the claim that the presentation of the action is all that matters thematically.

[ruggly]

AlanC9 wrote...
I suppose a Shepard theoretically could be just so into transhumanism that she skips point a) and just goes right to free bionic upgrades for everybody, yay! But I'm not sure I've ever seen a player do this except when metagaming to rack up one playthrough with every ending chosen

One problem I see with that, or at least as far as I remember, the game doesn't really give you a chance to really talk about transhumanism at all, save for one bit with EDI.  I know some players see Shepard as an avatar of transhumanism....but it's not like Shepard is the only person in the galaxy with upgrades, mechanical or gene therapy based.

I guess it's really left up to the player, but the game makes it hard to play it that way.

Edit: just saw your meta-gaming bit.  Guess you can ignore this post. I don't know how I missed that.

Modifié par ruggly, 04 septembre 2013 - 08:51 .

[AlanC9]

Shouldn't have even brought it up, but I'm not a fan of categorical statements about what other players' PCs do or don't believe.

[Br3admax]

Shepard's an avatar of something that he is not? Transhumans, in ME anyway, are humans that are no longer organic neurologically. Shepard's mind is still organic, sort of. It's one of those random things thrown into the plot, but still make no sense at the end of the day, because we are never really given a concrete answer on the extant of anything besides, "HE'S ALIVE! IT! IS! ALIVE!" We see some inconclusive diagrams and people saying, "You special." That's it.

[Fixers0]

Machines don't "die", they are destroyed.

[The Night Mammoth]

Fixers0 wrote...

Machines don't "die", they are destroyed.

What's the difference? My computer died only last week. 

[Br3admax]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Machines don't "die", they are destroyed.

What's the difference? My computer died only last week. 

Your computer was never alive by the most basic definition of the word life, that's the difference. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 04 septembre 2013 - 10:27 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Br3ad wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

Machines don't "die", they are destroyed.

What's the difference? My computer died only last week. 

Your computer was never alive by the most basic definition of the word life, that's the difference. 

That's not what he thought.

[Br3admax]

Of course it isn't; your computer couldn't think either. It solved math problems by running precoded responses and then spat out how it interrupted them using binary sequences.

[ruggly]

AlanC9 wrote...

Shouldn't have even brought it up, but I'm not a fan of categorical statements about what other players' PCs do or don't believe.

My apologies.

[Iakus]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

iakus wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

That detail is a bit irrelevant, anyway. If the Catalyst doesn't believe organic civilization will outlast all synthetic threats, then why should he not use synthetics the same way as it already uses organics (brainwashed minions for dirty work)? People like to point to that as if it's an "Aha!" kind of thing. It isn't. It means nothing, aside from the Reapers being ruthless.

To quote Garrus: "When has that ever mattered in war?"

Because that makes them complete hypocrites?

Okay. I'm not sure which of the two Q's you're responding to here, but it's not "hypocritical" if the Catalyst (and, by extension, the Reapers) are operating on the idea: the conflict is inevitable, and peace won't last. If letting it fester will lead to the problem you're trying to solve, then facilitating it yourself to promote your solution is actually logically consistent.

The only real counter to this would be, "this time will be different." It probably wouldn't have been, though, in Javik's cycle.

No, the conflict is inevitable because they are making it inevitable.

Which is doubly ridiculous because

A) Of course conflict is inevitable.  Saying so is like saying "It's going to rain eventually"  Conflict happens.  Organic vs organic, organic vs synthetic, and even synthetic vs synthetic.  

And

The Reapers are stirring up these "inevitable" conflicts themselves, turning their entire philosophy into a self-fufilling prophecy.

[The Night Mammoth]

Br3ad wrote...

Of course it isn't; your computer couldn't think either. It solved math problems by running precoded responses and then spat out how it interrupted them using binary sequences.

Is that what the geth and EDI do too?

[KaiserShep]

The issue isn't so much the inevitability of conflict as it is the supposed inevitability of complete annihilation as the result, which some simply don't buy.

[Br3admax]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Of course it isn't; your computer couldn't think either. It solved math problems by running precoded responses and then spat out how it interrupted them using binary sequences.

Is that what the geth and EDI do too?

When did I ever say that they were alive? In fact I think I had a very extended conversation with you about how they weren't alive. 

[Iakus]

KaiserShep wrote...

The issue isn't so much the inevitability of conflict as it is the supposed inevitability of complete annihilation as the result, which some simply don't buy.

Given that it's never been known to happen, and the closest we've seen has ben the Krogan Rebellions, which was an organic threat, it's quite easy to see why.

[The Night Mammoth]

Br3ad wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Of course it isn't; your computer couldn't think either. It solved math problems by running precoded responses and then spat out how it interrupted them using binary sequences.

Is that what the geth and EDI do too?

When did I ever say that they were alive? In fact I think I had a very extended conversation with you about how they weren't alive. 

I know, I'm asking you if the geth and EDI just do the same thing as my computer, which, as you said, wasn't alive.

[Sir DeLoria]

What's the point of synthetic life?

[Sir DeLoria]

Reorte wrote...

Kiwiphoenix wrote...

Always assumed that Destroy simply fried the complex electronics that allowed intelligent machines to think, EMP-style. So it makes sense that all synthetics would get fried.

That doesn't work. If you make peace on Rannoch Tali tells you that geth are uploading to some quarians suits so the electronics in those must be sufficiently complex (even if they aren't normally used to run software that complex). Trashed suits thanks to Destroy would be seriously bad news for the quarians yet Tali seems completely unaffected (and is there still a Rannoch slide? I don't remember).

Yeah of course, the slide shows a group of Quarians on Rannoch, talking to each other shortly after the war, still wearing their suits. The suits aren't fried by the red wave.

[KaiserShep]

Necanor wrote...

What's the point of synthetic life?

I suppose the same could be asked about life in general. The geth were not created as a form of life; it just so happened that life, or whatever you want to call it, came about spontaneously under the right conditions, which is very probably how our own species came to be. 

[Sir DeLoria]

KaiserShep wrote...

Necanor wrote...

What's the point of synthetic life?

I suppose the same could be asked about life in general. The geth were not created as a form of life; it just so happened that life, or whatever you want to call it, came about spontaneously under the right conditions, which is very probably how our own species came to be. 

Organic life however has the purpose of reproducing to ensure survival and filling a niche in the ecological system. 

[Br3admax]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Of course it isn't; your computer couldn't think either. It solved math problems by running precoded responses and then spat out how it interrupted them using binary sequences.

Is that what the geth and EDI do too?

When did I ever say that they were alive? In fact I think I had a very extended conversation with you about how they weren't alive. 

I know, I'm asking you if the geth and EDI just do the same thing as my computer, which, as you said, wasn't alive.

Yes, they are all machines. That cannot be disputed. They use numbers and math and show the coded respones to this math. They don't really think, they have a simulation of thought. A simulation of life. Your computer can't even claim that.