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[teh DRUMPf!!]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

When does EDI have to be told what's right and wrong?

I seem to remember EDI struggling with the concept of human prisoners on Earth not ratting each other out to the Reapers.

Among other things.

[AlanC9]

Br3ad wrote...

I don't think I need to tell you why a robot isn't alive when compared in a similar way to an organism.  Plants have cells, the building blocks of life. Robots have circuits, the building blocks of tools. EDI's just a glorified screwdriver, as far as I'm concerened. 

It's a clear enough definition of "life." But how is it useful?

[The Night Mammoth]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

When does EDI have to be told what's right and wrong?

I seem to remember EDI struggling with the concept of human prisoners on Earth not ratting each other out to the Reapers.

Among other things.

The implication behind the point I asked about was that EDI had difficulty with very simple concepts and Shepard had to tell her like a small child how she should think. In this case, EDI doesn't fully understand something, so asks Shepard for advice so she can understand the situation better on her own. EDI doesn't need to be told what's right and what's wrong.

Modifié par The Night Mammoth, 05 septembre 2013 - 03:07 .

[Br3admax]

AlanC9 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

I don't think I need to tell you why a robot isn't alive when compared in a similar way to an organism.  Plants have cells, the building blocks of life. Robots have circuits, the building blocks of tools. EDI's just a glorified screwdriver, as far as I'm concerened. 

It's a clear enough definition of "life." But how is it useful?

It keeps us from doing productive things by making us debate stupid things like video game logistics. Why strive to cure cancer when we can learn a bajillion facts about ME "lore." 

[Iakus]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

When does EDI have to be told what's right and wrong?

I seem to remember EDI struggling with the concept of human prisoners on Earth not ratting each other out to the Reapers.

Among other things.

It was an example of unusual human behavior

EDI isn't human

She wished to understand this better, so she asked a human who's opinion she respected.

[TheMyron]

If my memory is correct, "Life" has seven aspects, fire has five of them, and viruses (the biological ones) have only three.

[AlanC9]

Br3ad wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

I don't think I need to tell you why a robot isn't alive when compared in a similar way to an organism.  Plants have cells, the building blocks of life. Robots have circuits, the building blocks of tools. EDI's just a glorified screwdriver, as far as I'm concerened. 

It's a clear enough definition of "life." But how is it useful?

It keeps us from doing productive things by making us debate stupid things like video game logistics. Why strive to cure cancer when we can learn a bajillion facts about ME "lore." 

BSN: destroying productivity since--- how many years has it been?

I should have specified. Why do you find that definition useful? I don't see what good it does me to know that being A is made out of cells and being B is made out of circuits. If they've got different psychologies then talk about that.

Modifié par AlanC9, 05 septembre 2013 - 06:10 .

[Br3admax]

AlanC9 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

I don't think I need to tell you why a robot isn't alive when compared in a similar way to an organism.  Plants have cells, the building blocks of life. Robots have circuits, the building blocks of tools. EDI's just a glorified screwdriver, as far as I'm concerened. 

It's a clear enough definition of "life." But how is it useful?

It keeps us from doing productive things by making us debate stupid things like video game logistics. Why strive to cure cancer when we can learn a bajillion facts about ME "lore." 

BSN: destroying productivity since--- how many years has it been?

I should have specified. Why do you find that definition useful? I don't see what good it does me to know that being A is made out of cells and being B is made out of circuits. If they've got different psychologies then talk about that.

It's never going to be useful, I know what you meant I just don't care enough, but as long as you ask, it's down to whether you want to elevate something to  a status because it has become like you, which is sort of nice, or is something in a niche all of its own and it would be unfair to judge it by your standards. Sythetics aren't really alive, they're something else, and I consider it wrong to make something like you just to feel comfortable around it. It doesn't have to be alive for you to respect it. That's the way I feel anyway. 

[OdanUrr]

jtav wrote...

I don't think the death of EDI and the geth is nearly as contrived as it's made out to be. Destroy is the choice that tells the Catalyst to go to hell and we don't need it or its "solution." And organics really, really don't. Even the relays can eventually be comprehended and rebuilt. But the synthetics do need the Reapers. Take away their Reaper code and the geth go back to being near-mindless and concerned only with survival. EDI reverts to Hannibal. They die, essentially. If you want to reject the Reapers you can, but that means rejecting their toys too and either rebuilding them yourself or doing without. So EDI and the geth dying makes thematic sense.

I'd like to answer with this quote:

MegaSovereign wrote...

Sure, it's not thematically contrived...but in terms of logistics it doesn't make much sense.

And with this old post of mine:

http://social.biowar...1915/1#15131939


Specifically, in case you don't care to read it:

OdanUrr wrote...

So, what does Destroy do? In the Destroy ending, the Crucible will inevitably destroy the Geth as well as the Reapers and will also affect anything that can be associated with the word “technology.” The only thing that makes some sense in my mind is if it worked after a massive EMP-like pulse, rendering anything technological useless. The result of such a pulse, however, would be too staggering to even imagine and the casualties would likely be more than just the Geth. For instance, just imagine what would happen to the fleet when their life support systems failed.

But why? This I would like to know. Let us assume the Crucible was built solely, or mostly, to destroy the Reapers. Why wouldn’t its creators design it solely for this purpose? Or was it an unintended side effect, like the stargates blowing up with the Attero device? Even then it makes little sense, not every piece of technology works on the same physical or mechanical principle. If the Crucible can destroy all technology, or at least render it useless, it must attack something common to all technology. 

I can’t see the connection that will destroy the Geth either. The way I see it, the side effect with the Geth was intended as a price tag: you can destroy the Reapers, at the cost of destroying the Geth. It might make some sort of perverse symbolical sense but little else. A more realistic unintended consequence could have been the triggering of the Crucible resulting in a power build-up (and subsequent explosion) that would have harmed the Earth’s atmosphere at best, or blown up the planet at worst. That would put your other choices in a better light, wouldn’t it? You can save the galaxy at the cost of your planet, how about it? Is that a price you would be willing to pay?

[Mcfly616]

I think you'd be about right if you added one important word...


....affect anything that can be associated with "Reaper technology"


Which, makes sense.

[KaiserShep]

The Crucible would have to somehow connect to the Geth consensus and break into EDI's software in order to detect and wipe out any reaper-derived code it can find, since the software is the only connection the geth have to the reapers at all. EDI's origins are a bit vague, though I guess Cerberus got a hold of pieces of Sovereign's processor or something? Who knows. Other than that, the geth are completely unconnected to reaper technology.

[Mcfly616]

KaiserShep wrote...

The Crucible would have to somehow connect to the Geth consensus and break into EDI's software in order to detect and wipe out any reaper-derived code it can find, since the software is the only connection the geth have to the reapers at all. EDI's origins are a bit vague, though I guess Cerberus got a hold of pieces of Sovereign's processor or something? Who knows. Other than that, the geth are completely unconnected to reaper technology.

sorry, but the old machine upgrades are definitely Reaper Technology. That's a "connection".

[KaiserShep]

But a connection how? The code is purely software. There's no meaningful change to the geth platforms just because they get code installed. If I upgrade the firmware in my laptop, the Core 2 Duo processor is still the same old 64-bit thingamajig it was when I first bought it. The hard drive is still made of the same spinning platter in a flat case. Nothing is changed. You would not be able to tell this laptop from a laptop of identical build that has an older version of the firmware installed. Unless the lore of the MEU established some sort of cockamamie idea that code = physical change to hardware, there's no connection at all, unless, of course, it hacks into them to specifically target the code.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 05 septembre 2013 - 12:33 .

[Mcfly616]

I really don't see what's so hard to grasp that the Crucible can release energy that is directed towards and solely affects Reaper Tech. Pretty straightforward. Never thought it was something that needed to be spelled out (not that that would help anything). Relative to how an EMP works. It affects a specific set of things/objects. Whereas everything else is left unaffected. Not far fetched, at all.

[Mcfly616]

KaiserShep wrote...

But a connection how? The code is purely software. There's no meaningful change to the geth platforms just because they get code installed. If I upgrade the firmware in my laptop, the Core 2 Duo processor is still the same old 64-bit thingamajig it was when I first bought it. The hard drive is still made of the same spinning platter in a flat case. Nothing is changed. You would not be able to tell this laptop from a laptop of identical build that has an older version of the firmware installed.

no meaningful change? Did you think that whole deal with Legion was for no reason? Maybe you should go back and give that specific part another go.


And why are you comparing Reaper Technology to the software on your PC? What makes you think they're remotely comparable?

[OdanUrr]

Mcfly616 wrote...

I think you'd be about right if you added one important word...


....affect anything that can be associated with "Reaper technology"


Which, makes sense.

Take, for instance, the Normandy. For some bizarre reason it experiences engine failure during the Destroy ending and gets stuck on some backwater planet somehow. Does the Normandy have Reaper engines? And even then not all Reaper technology is the same. Would you say a mass relay is the same as the fabled "Reaper code" that the geth have? I think not. That's why I quoted MegaSovereign that it was "thematically consistent" but where exactly is the physics to back this up?

[KaiserShep]

Mcfly616 wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

But a connection how? The code is purely software. There's no meaningful change to the geth platforms just because they get code installed. If I upgrade the firmware in my laptop, the Core 2 Duo processor is still the same old 64-bit thingamajig it was when I first bought it. The hard drive is still made of the same spinning platter in a flat case. Nothing is changed. You would not be able to tell this laptop from a laptop of identical build that has an older version of the firmware installed.

no meaningful change? Did you think that whole deal with Legion was for no reason? Maybe you should go back and give that specific part another go.


And why are you comparing Reaper Technology to the software on your PC? What makes you think they're remotely comparable?

FFS...

When I say no meaningful change, I mean no meaningful physical change to the hardware. The problem lies in this vague concept of what reaper tech is, and the very inconsistent effects the destroy wave has on technology in general. Consider:

Legion tells you that the geth are purely software. Tali tells you that the geth can operate in any hardware with enough processing power to support them. The Quarians' envirosuits can support geth programs, which install themselves to boost their immune systems. Are their suits now technically associated with reaper tech? I guess not, since they don't drop dead as a result of destroy. But wait, the wave just so happens to make husks, and presumably all other corrupted reaper organics, dissolve into thin air. The husks and reaper code are all reaper tech, but it seems that only certain tech get blown into oblivion, but the husks, banshees, brutes, etc. are partially organic, yet somehow it takes the organic component with it. Another problem lies in the fact that EDI and the geth's deaths are left to our imagination, and the Normandy's ability to just take off and fly away means that it's somehow able to take away EDI specifically, without harming the other vital components of the ship.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 05 septembre 2013 - 12:52 .

[Mcfly616]

OdanUrr wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

I think you'd be about right if you added one important word...


....affect anything that can be associated with "Reaper technology"


Which, makes sense.

Take, for instance, the Normandy. For some bizarre reason it experiences engine failure during the Destroy ending and gets stuck on some backwater planet somehow. Does the Normandy have Reaper engines? And even then not all Reaper technology is the same. Would you say a mass relay is the same as the fabled "Reaper code" that the geth have? I think not. That's why I quoted MegaSovereign that it was "thematically consistent" but where exactly is the physics to back this up?

the Normandy has EDI. EDI is an AI with Reaper based code. I don't see why a mass relay wouldn't have Reaper "code". The energy purges all Reaper Tech. Clearly, it's a general purge. If I set off an EMP in your living room, its not like just your phone is going to be singled out and rendered non-functional. Nope, your whole place is going to be shutdown. TV, PC, all electronics etc etc.


You seem to think that since it's vague and left slightly ambiguous, that it doesn't make sense. Which doesn't really work. Just because you didn't get detailed explainations on the intricacies of Reaper Tech and its subcategories, doesn't automatically make something nonsensical.

[KaiserShep]

This code business is pure conjecture. There's nothing indicating that code is specifically what it targets. This is just a theory fans threw together because the wave is basically space magic in its purest form. The wave functions nothing like an EMP, because if it did, it would've killed every single person in space, everyone hooked up to life support, and would have definitely killed Shepard by disabling the implants, which apparently is not the case in high EMS.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 05 septembre 2013 - 01:06 .

[rekn2]

FFS, what dont you people understand about the words "space magic"?

stop bringing physics into this, stop bringing logic into this. the magic wave kills anything "reapery". just leave it at that.

bad plot device is bad.

[OdanUrr]

Mcfly616 wrote...

the Normandy has EDI. EDI is an AI with Reaper based code. I don't see why a mass relay wouldn't have Reaper "code". The energy purges all Reaper Tech. Clearly, it's a general purge. If I set off an EMP in your living room, its not like just your phone is going to be singled out and rendered non-functional. Nope, your whole place is going to be shutdown. TV, PC, all electronics etc etc.


You seem to think that since it's vague and left slightly ambiguous, that it doesn't make sense. Which doesn't really work. Just because you didn't get detailed explainations on the intricacies of Reaper Tech and its subcategories, doesn't automatically make something nonsensical.

I'll try to address your points one by one:

1) The Normandy has EDI. True, but the Normandy didn't always have EDI and Joker was able to pilot the ship regardless without having its engines blow up.

2) A mass relay could have Reaper code. Indeed, but "Reaper code" is a very vague term. The code for, say, Windows 7 is not the same as the code for Google Chrome.

3) The energy purges all Reaper tech. But not all Reaper tech need work on the same physical/mechanical principle. So the Geth have "Reaper code." An EMP doesn't destroy code, it induces high currents and voltages that destroy the circuits in an electronic device. Do all the Geth share a specific Reaper implant that would be susceptible to the energy pulse from the Destroy ending? In your example, while an EMP might easily wreck havoc on my more modern equipment it would be oblivious to my old landline phone.

4) I think that it's not a very good idea to introduce new rules in a universe in the last five minutes of the last game in the trilogy. It's lazy and borderline insulting when it's clear to the player that it's there simply to add gravitas to your choice and little else. I don't require a detailed explanation on how the Crucible works, I don't need to understand it even! I don't care if you say that "every piece of Reaper technology uses a unique compound known as thriska that can decompose when submitted to a sekar-ta energy pulse vibrating at a frequency of 87 htyaka" and then you don't explain what thriska, sekar-ta or htyaka are, but at least now I know there's some kind of logic to how the Crucible works. Otherwise it just tells me that you (the writers) didn't know how to finish the story and created a superweapon that doesn't really work except for the purpose of ending your story.

[Iakus]

Mcfly616 wrote...

I really don't see what's so hard to grasp that the Crucible can release energy that is directed towards and solely affects Reaper Tech. Pretty straightforward. Never thought it was something that needed to be spelled out (not that that would help anything). Relative to how an EMP works. It affects a specific set of things/objects. Whereas everything else is left unaffected. Not far fetched, at all.

Then why weren't the relays destroyed?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

EDI is a passenger on the Normandy. A highly integrated and efficient one, but a passenger no less. She is not necessary for the Normandy to function..

[KaiserShep]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

EDI is a passenger on the Normandy. A highly integrated and efficient one, but a passenger no less. She is not necessary for the Normandy to function..

And that's the thing. Regardless of EDI, a spaceship would still require computer systems to operate. What fundamental differences are there between EDI and every other system that manages life support, propulsion, regulating the ship's core, fuel, etc.? What DID Engineer Adams see in the AI core? Maybe it really was filled with puppies and magic, and we put them to sleep when we shot the tube.

[Teddie Sage]

rekn2 wrote...

FFS, what dont you people understand about the words "space magic"?

stop bringing physics into this, stop bringing logic into this. the magic wave kills anything "reapery". just leave it at that.

bad plot device is bad.

I think I prefer the term: badly narrated, over space magic. Space magic just doesn't work for me. If the endings were done better, we wouldn't be using that term over and over again to express our frustration. It was just narrated the wrong way for many gamers, like someone else mentioned in the thread, we had to headcanon the rest of the endings. That was quite unfair with the epicness we got from ME1 and ME2's endings. Leaving those endings to our own interpretation just caused even more problems on BSN and on other forums worldwide and it's now impossible for people to agree on what should be the real "happy" ending.