333 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Reaper code doesn't really work as an explanation for Destroy at all, in my mind, because it only works if EDI's based on it, which seems unlikely considering what she's actually is, and that she and every Reaper share the same base code, which all seems unlikely considering they're both AI's that have evolved a great deal since their birth, and the Reapers aren't even really just computers with code in them. Also, the geth wouldn't die if some of their code was deleted.

Really, the Crucible targets synthetics just because it does. 

Besides which, the Catalyst does not say "All Reaper code, but "all synthetic life"

Which is basically "because reason".

[Xamufam]

Deleted

Modifié par Troxa, 02 septembre 2013 - 06:55 .

[Br3admax]

Only one of those things is even remotely related to Reaper code specifically.

Modifié par Br3ad, 02 septembre 2013 - 06:51 .

[wright1978]

jtav wrote...

I don't think the death of EDI and the geth is nearly as contrived as it's made out to be. Destroy is the choice that tells the Catalyst to go to hell and we don't need it or its "solution." And organics really, really don't. Even the relays can eventually be comprehended and rebuilt. But the synthetics do need the Reapers. Take away their Reaper code and the geth go back to being near-mindless and concerned only with survival. EDI reverts to Hannibal. They die, essentially. If you want to reject the Reapers you can, but that means rejecting their toys too and either rebuilding them yourself or doing without. So EDI and the geth dying makes thematic sense.

The death of EDI/upgraded geth as thematic sacrifice to destroy reapers i'd accept if they'd actually bothered to try and deliver it beforehand. Don't use a cheap scummy plot device bratalyst to artifically tag it in 5 minutes from the end. Equally the endings would need to be properly balanced with their own clear negative consequence on  par with genocide of Geth/EDI articulated. Have the player going in with arguments from squaddies backing their preferred use of the crucible ringing in his /her ears.

Personally though i think synthetics don't need the reapers and it doesn't need to be the thematic sacrifice, though it is certainly one route to go down. Rejecting the reapers shouldn't mean rejecting using their technology for improved AI's(like EDI) and the relay network they built.

[Steelcan]

The death of EDI is 'meh'.

[Xamufam]

I think they originally intended that all 3 choices would have something to do with the reaper code.
From leaked script

ACTION:
Shepard must now make his final decision - to control the Reapers, to destroy the Reapers, or if they had a perfect game to become one with the Reapers.

ONE OF THE FOLLOWING:
{
CUTSCENE:
The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard leaps off the edge of the platform becoming one with the Reapers.
}
OR:
{
CUTSCENE:
The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard places his hands into the control mechanism and gains control over the Reapers. Earth is destroyed, and the Reapers leave.
}
OR:
{
CUTSCENE:
The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard places his hands into the control mechanism and gains control over the Reapers. Earth is okay, and the Reapers leave.
}
OR:
{
CUTSCENE:
The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard destroys the tubes resulting in the Reapers being destroyed. Earth is devastated.
}
OR:
{
CUTSCENE:
The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard destroys the tubes resulting in the Reapers being destroyed. Earth is also Destroyed.
}
OR:
{
CUTSCENE:
The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard destroys the tubes resulting in the Reapers being destroyed. Earth is okay.
}
OR:
{
CUTSCENE:
The DEVICE docks with the Citadel, Shepard destroys the tubes resulting in the Reapers being destroyed. Earth is okay. Shepard survives.

Modifié par Troxa, 02 septembre 2013 - 07:02 .

[JamesFaith]

iakus wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

iakus wrote...

 EDI and the geth reverting to ealier pre-Reaper states might make sense.  But their unavoidable deaths makes no sense at all.  They are all different kinds of AIs from different areas and using different tech by different species.  A universal "off button" for all of them is completely unreasonable.

This would depend on one major thing - was Reaper code only addition to Geth code or replacing /addition+replacing of some of its vital parts?

Because in second case will Geth in Destroy suddenly missing vital components and their programming simply collaps. When you upgrade your comp from Millenium to Vista and then erased Vista, comp wouldn't return to Millenium without new instalation.

It was always referred to as an upgrade, not a new system, which a new OS would be more akin to.  Besides which the geth keep previous iterations of themselves stored in archives specifically to combat malware attacks.  One would think rolling themselves back would be a forseeable countermeasure.

We aren't talking about one unit but whole Geth colective. If all active Geth units die who would create new units and download these copies?

And Legion dialogs suggesting that copies are upgraded with new info updates. It is logical to assume that they were upgraded with Reaper code too. Without it new copies would be robbed from all individual experiences of original and especially during war would be these updates as often as possible.

And upgrade is normally connected with replacing of part of old programming.

[Steelcan]

The death of the geth and EDI is little more than a last effort to make Destroy unpalatable to more people.

I'd say it worked out pretty well. I've seen many people say they refuse to do it because of them.

Any lore justifications for this are secondary "common sense" would tell us that the geth should be ok since they were sapient before, EDI less so.

[Reorte]

JamesFaith wrote...


We aren't talking about one unit but whole Geth colective. If all active Geth units die who would create new units and download these copies?

It would make sense if the backups are restored by some fairly simple automatic system that's fairly independent from the higher-level geth functions (otherwise the backup system is likely to be affected by whatever required its use in the first place). How much is backed up is unknown but it's very unlikely to be every previous version, there are constraints on storage space after all.

And Legion dialogs suggesting that copies are upgraded with new info updates. It is logical to assume that they were upgraded with Reaper code too. Without it new copies would be robbed from all individual experiences of original and especially during war would be these updates as often as possible.

And upgrade is normally connected with replacing of part of old programming.

I'm not sure that the concept of individual experience is at all meaningful to the geth, at least in their much more interesting pre-Rannoch state.

Anyway, as has been said several times the idea that the Crucible could target all synthetic life is pretty ridiculous. It would be ridiculous enough if it targetted just Reaper code, including code that might've been created by the Reapers but was running on completely alien platforms. To do so and leave non-life software running would involve having to completely analyse the hardware and software on it. Think about how implausible that would be for current real-world computers. Could you have a beam that deletes all word processing software from every computer in the world, and every computer that's ever been made? And that's probably a simpler task.

[JamesFaith]

Reorte wrote...

Anyway, as has been said several times the idea that the Crucible could target all synthetic life is pretty ridiculous. It would be ridiculous enough if it targetted just Reaper code, including code that might've been created by the Reapers but was running on completely alien platforms. To do so and leave non-life software running would involve having to completely analyse the hardware and software on it. Think about how implausible that would be for current real-world computers. Could you have a beam that deletes all word processing software from every computer in the world, and every computer that's ever been made? And that's probably a simpler task.

But I don't argue about implausibility of this Crucibel-target-Reaper-code. My reaction was on Iakus claim that after erasing of Reaper code which surely alternated and replaced huge parts f vital Geth coding, would Geth just return back to old times.

When you profesionaly rewrite key line of code in program, it should work better or different.
But if you erased this code program would stop working. It wouldn't return back to old version.

[GreyLycanTrope]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
It sounded rather dumb to me.

*shrugs* k

Br3ad wrote...

Lol, someone saying that Liara can give a good speech about how stupid they all were is hilarious.

Shepard's speech not Liara's capsule.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 02 septembre 2013 - 08:19 .

[dorktainian]

each solution has its drawbacks. however only one of the choices actually kills the reapers.

well...so starjar says anyway, and i wouldnt trust him as far as i could throw him out of an airlock.

[OH-UP-THIS!]

To answer the original question.......... No, it's an idiotic, ill-planned, attempt at an emotional/psychological response for "implied consequences".

There is NO possible way EDI or the Geth would "die", simply because they were never alive to begin with.

Legion states numerous times that they are simply software, so here's the hard part for y'all to grasp........................reload said software, problem goes away by itself.

I can't believe I had to post this, really, is it that difficult to comprehend?

Modifié par ohupthis, 02 septembre 2013 - 08:43 .

[KaiserShep]

Reinstall geth.app, and all should be well.

[YourFleshIsMine]

Well it appears that the ancients from before the Reapers had a hang up about AI's taking over the Universe. It seemed an odd twist at the end but then again it does prove that they weren't perfect either and perhaps it's what they feared more.

Culling the lesse races so they wouldn't build something that would destroy the ancients...

Linking EDI to that seemed a bit unnecessary. They did hint at how dangerous she could be when free but it wasn't a main thing in the story lines and that would've made more sense. So yeah, it seemed unnecessary...

but then there is still lots of room for speculation after.

[TheMyron]

I made peace b/w the Quarians and the Geth because I needed the Geth as assets, but with the Reapers destroyed they had outlived their usefulness.

The Geth claim to be alive, and living things have the ability to double-cross.

Quarians: I am afraid your immune system recovery is going to take a long while.
Joker: Time for you to grow up and get a real girlfriend.

Modifié par TheMyron, 02 septembre 2013 - 09:37 .

[David7204]

Being 'sensible' does not excuse the very serious storytelling faults. Putting a gun to a character's head for the sole purpose of making a choice 'darker' is repulsive storytelling. There's no themes. There's no meaning. There's only "This choice is too happy so Synthetics die."

That's incredibly bad writing. And it's the reason why Mordin's death is outstanding while the ending is disgusting. Mordin's death carried very meaningful themes of hope and redemption. The ending had none of that. Only characters being taken hostage.

Modifié par David7204, 02 septembre 2013 - 09:40 .

[Wulfram]

The Geth as an entity seemed plenty alive and intelligent before the Reaper code to me. Even Legion did, and he was a mere fraction of the consensus.

And EDI was an AI before getting some reaper code. And that rebellious gambling programme that tries to blow itself up surely didn't have reaper code.

Destroying Synthetics would make sense if you saw Destroy as a massive EMP burst, but that would cause more damage than is exhibited in the extended cut. The problem is that it's both broad and oddly specific - it affects widely divergent AIs but seems to leave most other stuff basically OK.

Actually, if it left the Geth OK and only affected quantum blue boxes, that might work ok. You'd just have to assume the Reapers had something like those boxes going for them. And you can justify almost anything by adding quantum in front.

Modifié par Wulfram, 02 septembre 2013 - 09:38 .

[Nikkonito]

David7204 wrote...

Being 'sensible' does not excuse the very serious storytelling faults. Putting a gun to a character's head for the sole purpose of making a choice 'darker' is repulsive storytelling. There's no themes. There's no meaning. There's only "This choice is too happy so Synthetics die."

That's incredibly bad writing. And it's the reason why Mordin's death is outstanding while the ending is disgusting. Mordin's death carried very meaningful themes of hope and redemption. The ending had none of that. Only characters being taken hostage.

So you think Virmire was bad writing?

[Br3admax]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Lol, someone saying that Liara can give a good speech about how stupid they all were is hilarious.

Shepard's speech not Liara's capsule.

You had me worried for a second.

@TheMyron: I don't even like Tali, and even I can tell you a few things wrong with what you just said. Life's not all about making babies.....well it is, but you know what I mean. 

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...
 If you want to reject the Reapers you can, but that means rejecting their toys too

No it bloody well does not.

I haven't seen this... statement for some time but it still makes my blood boil as much now as it did then.

You kill something, you get its stuff (unless there's something stopping you, like laws and junk). To the victor go the spoils.

End of discussion.

[jtav]

It's a matter of theme. Remember Sovereign? "You develop along the paths we desire." Reaper tech is presented as something that stifles the innovative spirit of organics, even as it broadens the minds of synthetics. You want to be free? Well, you're going to have to be free of everything.

[Reorte]

Nikkonito wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Being 'sensible' does not excuse the very serious storytelling faults. Putting a gun to a character's head for the sole purpose of making a choice 'darker' is repulsive storytelling. There's no themes. There's no meaning. There's only "This choice is too happy so Synthetics die."

That's incredibly bad writing. And it's the reason why Mordin's death is outstanding while the ending is disgusting. Mordin's death carried very meaningful themes of hope and redemption. The ending had none of that. Only characters being taken hostage.

So you think Virmire was bad writing?

Virmire came out reasonably convincingly from what was happening in the story at that point. Killing off the geth and EI did not.