333 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

I imagine the reapers also count when asking whether or not everyone deserves to live, so for that I'd say no, not everyone does.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 03 septembre 2013 - 08:17 .

[NocturneNight]

KaiserShep wrote...

I imagine the reapers also count when asking whether or not everyone deserves to live, so for that I'd say no, not everyone does.

That's a good point. I'll rephrase: Doesn't every benign species deserve to live? 

[Sir DeLoria]

NocturneNight wrote...

Nec: The quarians attacked them, they acted in self-defense. Humans would've not hesitated a second to do the same. Didn't you do the Geth Fighter Squadron? It's pretty obvious they were only trying to survive, some Geth even willingly let themselves be shut off because they didn't want to bring harm to their creators.

That's fine and dandy, but they killed Quarian civilians. A lot of Quarian civilians. Heck, they even killed non-Quarian civilians in the Morning War:?

[KaiserShep]

StreetMagic wrote...

NocturneNight wrote...
That's a good point. I'll rephrase: Doesn't every benign species deserve to live? 

I wouldn't say so, even if I wanted to. I'd be a hypocrite if I did. I just ate a porkchop. I'm sure that piggie didn't do anything bad to me.

To be fair, the difference is that when you eat a pork chop, you're not trying to render pigs extinct lol.

[Sir DeLoria]

StreetMagic wrote...

Xen is hardly insane. That's just Tali's words. Xen is a cool headed, high functioning sociopath maybe - but not insane.

I mention sometimes, that Xen and TIM would be a great couple. They are both similar people, except that TIM somewhat cares for human lives. Xen is more than ruthless. The fact, that she wants to subjugate the Geth kinda shows that.

It's really too bad the Xen mission was cut from the final game. 

Xen: What would your father say, Tali?
Tali: He'd say 'Good work, that bosh'tet was crazy!'

[Br3admax]

Necanor wrote...

NocturneNight wrote...

Nec: The quarians attacked them, they acted in self-defense. Humans would've not hesitated a second to do the same. Didn't you do the Geth Fighter Squadron? It's pretty obvious they were only trying to survive, some Geth even willingly let themselves be shut off because they didn't want to bring harm to their creators.

That's fine and dandy, but they killed Quarian civilians. A lot of Quarian civilians. Heck, they even killed non-Quarian civilians in the Morning War:?

You're right, the only sensible thing would be to kill off boh species. Clean slate for the galaxy in this regard. 

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...

jtav wrote...
Destroy is saying, loudly, that you don't need the Reapers.

No, it really isn't. Destroy is about survival via the obliteration of your enemies. Survival not just in the physical sense but also of our way of life. A way of life that includes all these nifty toys just lying around.  And the obliterated don't get a say in what happens afterwards. We win, we get all the stuff. There's really nothing else to say.

Both Destroy and Control are conquest endings through Exactly What It Says On the Tin. Destroy conquers through obliteration, Control through subjucation (roughly). Then there's also the method. If you want to get poetic, Control has you take the power of the gods by becoming one yourself. Destroy on the other hand has you go all Kratos on their ass (at least it would if it didn't "art" all over itself) and when they're all dead, humanity is free to pick up what's left.

Your and jtav's interpretation are not mutually exclusive. They're different ways of looking at the same thing. Destroy is thematically anti-synthetic for various reasons I've explained too many times, but it's also thematically Renegade (as in Destroy your enemies completely and don't give them any quarter). Destroy also thematically supports the Lovecraftian stance "Reaper tech is things we aren't meant to know" and the idea that organic life is the only valid life. You need to accept only one of those interpretations to find Destroy a valid ending, and you don't need to buy any of them in the first place, but they're all there, however you want to deny it.

[NocturneNight]

KaiserShep wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

NocturneNight wrote...
That's a good point. I'll rephrase: Doesn't every benign species deserve to live? 

I wouldn't say so, even if I wanted to. I'd be a hypocrite if I did. I just ate a porkchop. I'm sure that piggie didn't do anything bad to me.

To be fair, the difference is that when you eat a pork chop, you're not trying to render pigs extinct lol.

Sorta, even if I do eat pork, that doesn't mean I want pigs everywhere to die indeed.  But a pig is an animal that lacks a sentience; I doubt we'd be eating them if we could have a meaningful conversation about the nature of the universe with them...  I probably should've worded it better, but then again I would think people would understand what I meant without having to point out semantics. 

Necanor wrote...

That's fine and dandy, but they killed Quarian civilians. A lot of Quarian civilians. Heck, they even killed non-Quarian civilians in the Morning War:?

Where in the games do you get this information from? Non-quarian civilans? Like who? And even so, when the Quarians left, the Geth did not persue. Eventhough it was totally in their power to destroy their entire species. It matters little in the end though, it's not like all humans spare civilans in modern-day wars. Bottomline is that what happened to the Quarians was the Quarians own fault, noone elses.

[Br3admax]

Actually killing civilians is illegal in every war. Killing civilians is a capital offense in most modern countries. Also the information comes from the Codex, the official one, and the books. It's legit.

[pelojian]

NocturneNight wrote...
Where in the games do you get this information from? Non-quarian civilans? Like who? And even so, when the Quarians left, the Geth did not persue. Eventhough it was totally in their power to destroy their entire species. It matters little in the end though, it's not like all humans spare civilans in modern-day wars. Bottomline is that what happened to the Quarians was the Quarians own fault, noone elses.

Erinya the Baria Frontiers rep on illium explains her dislike for other speicies citing the death of her bondmate on rannoch during the mourning war and the death of her daughters on the citadel during sovereign's attack.

any non-quarian siding with the "destroy all geth - quarians" in the war is logical, aliens unlike some quarians would not see the geth as sentient lifeforms deserving the right to live and determine their own future. the geth would have been seen by non-quarians and most quarian as malfunctioning machines to be destoryed.

The geth state they acted to preserve themselves so any alien that died in the war ether attacked the geth, supported the enemy quarians in some manner or were colateral damage.

Modifié par pelojian, 03 septembre 2013 - 09:13 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...
Relays still explode in synthesis, is this also because it specificly targets Reapers tech? Yeah didn't think so. Geth origin isn't traced back to the Reapers either, and since when where Shep's implants Reaper tech?

your choice determines how the energy of the Crucible is focused. Destroy most definitely targets Reaper code.

Relays overload in Synthesis because of the amount of crude energy passing through each relay. Doesn't matter if Geth can trace their origins back to the Reapers because they're laced with Reaper code now. Destroy will purge Reaper Code. If you have it, you're screwed.

*citation needed*

[KaiserShep]

There's no details on how the wave works because it's completely arbitrary. It disintegrates husks and other monsters, but not the reapers. It overloads the relays and Citadel, but doesn't destroy ships. Targeting code is such a ridiculous concept, because if it could specifically target code, there's no reason why it couldn't discern the minds of EDI and the geth from those of the reapers. (The Catalyst "controls" the reapers, thus has access to the reapers, yet this access is not at all useful when it comes to undoing them). In short, it doesn't matter, because reasons.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 03 septembre 2013 - 09:43 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

KaiserShep wrote...
In short, it doesn't matter, because reasons.

[Sir DeLoria]

NocturneNight wrote...

Necanor wrote...

That's fine and dandy, but they killed Quarian civilians. A lot of Quarian civilians. Heck, they even killed non-Quarian civilians in the Morning War:?

Where in the games do you get this information from? Non-quarian civilans? Like who? And even so, when the Quarians left, the Geth did not persue. Eventhough it was totally in their power to destroy their entire species. It matters little in the end though, it's not like all humans spare civilans in modern-day wars. Bottomline is that what happened to the Quarians was the Quarians own fault, noone elses.

An Asari on Illium in ME2(forgot the name) mentions, that her Asari wife was killed by the Geth when they first rebelled. The Geth killed almost 99% of the Quarian population. Only a small handful were able to escape. Is a mass murderer much better if he kills 80 people and lets one live? Even so, what the Geth did to the Quarians is considered cultural genocide. The Quarian governement was wrong to fight the Geth, the Gethwere wrong to needlessly slaughter civilians.

[Iakus]

KaiserShep wrote...

There's no details on how the wave works because it's completely arbitrary. It disintegrates husks and other monsters, but not the reapers. It overloads the relays and Citadel, but doesn't destroy ships. Targeting code is such a ridiculous concept, because if it could specifically target code, there's no reason why it couldn't discern the minds of EDI and the geth from those of the reapers. (The Catalyst "controls" the reapers, thus has access to the reapers, yet this access is not at all useful when it comes to undoing them). In short, it doesn't matter, because reasons.

Arbitrary punishment for making a given choice is wrong no matter how you slice it.

[Sir DeLoria]

pelojian wrote...

Erinya the Baria Frontiers rep on illium explains her dislike for other speicies citing the death of her bondmate on rannoch during the mourning war and the death of her daughters on the citadel during sovereign's attack.

any non-quarian siding with the "destroy all geth - quarians" in the war is logical, aliens unlike some quarians would not see the geth as sentient lifeforms deserving the right to live and determine their own future. the geth would have been seen by non-quarians and most quarian as malfunctioning machines to be destoryed.

The geth state they acted to preserve themselves so any alien that died in the war ether attacked the geth, supported the enemy quarians in some manner or were colateral damage.

That is correct. Except, that by that logic a humungous amount of colateral damage was done by the Geth. It doesn't matter what side a civilian supports, if he/she doesn't take up arms it's a crime to kill him/her.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor keeps leaving out the part where the Geth were in their intellectual infancy and acting on little more than a instinctual survival mechanism. It's panicked rage. Essentially a wild animal that's being threatened and fighting back. It's going to keep fighting until you're dead (or it's dead) because that's the only way it can guarantee its own safety.

He believes the Geth killed civilians intentionally for the sake of killing them. He's leaving out direct evidence that completely contradicts him. Really, he's going out of his way to antagonize the Geth.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 03 septembre 2013 - 10:14 .

[Sir DeLoria]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor keeps leaving out the part where the Geth were in their intellectual infancy and acting on little more than a instinctual survival mechanism. It's panicked rage. Essentially a wild animal that's being threatened and fighting back. It's going to keep fighting until you're dead (or it's dead) because that's the only way it can guarantee its own safety.

He believes the Geth killed civilians intentionally for the sake of killing them. He's leaving out direct evidence that completely contradicts him. Really, he's going out of his way to antagonize the Geth.

No, I just don't see their intelectual infancy as a valid excuse for the atrocities they committed. Sure, your theory explains why the Geth did what they did, but it doesn't render them free of judgement.

Modifié par Necanor, 04 septembre 2013 - 12:11 .

[thehomeworld]

I had no problem accepting the fact that destroy kills all synthetics and maybe a few Quarians whom downloaded them into their suits (though this is highly debatable), the only problem I had with destroy was that it didn't kill Shep in the postEC ending he is made up of unknown amounts of reaper tech he/she should've died due to amount used I can't imagine Miranda could bring him/her back with no less then 80% of that technology and being that shep can be hacked leads me to believe it could be as high as 90%.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor keeps leaving out the part where the Geth were in their intellectual infancy and acting on little more than a instinctual survival mechanism. It's panicked rage. Essentially a wild animal that's being threatened and fighting back. It's going to keep fighting until you're dead (or it's dead) because that's the only way it can guarantee its own safety.

He believes the Geth killed civilians intentionally for the sake of killing them. He's leaving out direct evidence that completely contradicts him. Really, he's going out of his way to antagonize the Geth.

No, I just don't see their intelectual infancy as a valid excuse for the atrocities they committed.

That's a self-defeating statement. How is intellectual infancy not an explanation? Because *I luv dah Quarianz!*

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 04 septembre 2013 - 12:15 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

Sure, your theory explains why the Geth did what they did, but it doesn't render them free of judgement.

Then how do you judge a bear that kills a family because one of the kids was stupid and wouldn't stop poking it with a stick? Is that an atrocity? 

I think it is. On the part of the kid and the family. Obviously, the Geth/Quarian situation is a lot more complex, but I do hold all atrocities as being ultimately the fault of the Quarians.

[Sir DeLoria]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Sure, your theory explains why the Geth did what they did, but it doesn't render them free of judgement.

Then how do you judge a bear that kills a family because one of the kids was stupid and wouldn't stop poking it with a stick? Is that an atrocity? 

I think it is. On the part of the kid and the family. Obviously, the Geth/Quarian situation is a lot more complex, but I do hold all atrocities as being ultimately the fault of the Quarians.

That's a terrible analogy and you're completely ignoring the complexety of the situation and of course you're once again blaming the actions of a small portion of the Quarians(military and government) on their entire race. Should I blame the entire Human race for the Arrival incident? Of course not, you're belief in collective guilt is completely illogical. 

Modifié par Necanor, 04 septembre 2013 - 12:26 .