333 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir DeLoria]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...
Necanor keeps leaving out the part where the Geth were in their intellectual infancy and acting on little more than a instinctual survival mechanism. It's panicked rage. Essentially a wild animal that's being threatened and fighting back. It's going to keep fighting until you're dead (or it's dead) because that's the only way it can guarantee its own safety.

He believes the Geth killed civilians intentionally for the sake of killing them. He's leaving out direct evidence that completely contradicts him. Really, he's going out of his way to antagonize the Geth.

No, I just don't see their intelectual infancy as a valid excuse for the atrocities they committed.

That's a self-defeating statement. How is intellectual infancy not an explanation? Because *I luv dah Quarianz!*

Like I said in the edit, it's an explanation, but it doesn't make the Geth innocent.

[jtav]

Lack of capacity is a valid legal defense for a reason. I'm not at all convinced the geth had the ability to appreciate what they were doing at the time of the Morning War. The entire thing is a tragedy.

[Sir DeLoria]

thehomeworld wrote...

 maybe a few Quarians whom downloaded them into their suits (though this is highly debatable)

That's stupid, who ever said that?

[Sir DeLoria]

jtav wrote...

Lack of capacity is a valid legal defense for a reason. I'm not at all convinced the geth had the ability to appreciate what they were doing at the time of the Morning War. The entire thing is a tragedy.

An insane mass murderer is still dangerous. Maybe he doesn't have the capacity to fully comprehend the situation or his own actions, but that doesn't mean he can be let loose. It would be rather difficult though to permanently incarcerate the Geth.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Sure, your theory explains why the Geth did what they did, but it doesn't render them free of judgement.

Then how do you judge a bear that kills a family because one of the kids was stupid and wouldn't stop poking it with a stick? Is that an atrocity? 

I think it is. On the part of the kid and the family. Obviously, the Geth/Quarian situation is a lot more complex, but I do hold all atrocities as being ultimately the fault of the Quarians.

That's a terrible analogy and you're completely ignoring the complexety of the situation and of course you're once again blaming the actions of a small portion of the Quarians(military and government) on their entire race. Should I blame the entire Human race for the Arrival incident? Of course not, you're belief in collective guilt is completely illogical. 

Who said collective guilt? You're leaving out the part where the Quarians, collective responsibility or no, are threatening the Geth. The Geth don't have the capacity to distinguish much more than the fact that they're being attacked.

It doesn't matter who or why, only that they are. They're thinking hasn't advanced to the point where they can make a distinction to whom they're fighting. They're simply retaliating out of panicked rage against anything that moves because that's the only way that they will stop being attacked. They don't have the collective mental facilities yet to distinguish combatants from non-combatants. It's very animalistic. 

No animal that you provoke is going to stop and reason that only one or two of the group of humans are attacking it. They're going to attack everyone in self-defense.

So no, I don't believe it's right to judge the Geth. They're incapable of being judged really. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

jtav wrote...

Lack of capacity is a valid legal defense for a reason. I'm not at all convinced the geth had the ability to appreciate what they were doing at the time of the Morning War. The entire thing is a tragedy.

An insane mass murderer is still dangerous. Maybe he doesn't have the capacity to fully comprehend the situation or his own actions, but that doesn't mean he can be let loose. It would be rather difficult though to permanently incarcerate the Geth.

The Geth aren't insane mass murderers. They don't have the mental capacity at that point to be insane. As I've said, they're incapable of much more than primitive cognitive function on a collective level. They're no more than a bunch of provoked animals that have been driven to their survival instinct to fight. 

They're too primitive to be judged as innocent or guilty. They're simply surviving in the only matter that their mental capacity allows for them. To the primitive intelligence of the Geth at this point, safety means killing everything else. It's kill or be killed.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 04 septembre 2013 - 12:38 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

Quarians tried to kill the Geth, the Geth just killed them right back. I think that's fair play, Quarians are just butt-hurt cause they sucked at the game.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 04 septembre 2013 - 12:39 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Quarians tried to kill the Geth, the Geth just killed them right back. I think that's fair play, Quarians are just butt-hurt cause they sucked at the game.

Yup.

[KaiserShep]

Necanor wrote...
Like I said in the edit, it's an explanation, but it doesn't make the Geth innocent.

Actually, being in a state of intellectual infancy does make them innocent. However the geth were to behave and develop depended largely, if not entirely, on how their creators treated them, and since the Geth's abstract questions were left unanswered, save for the destruction of both themselves and their sympathizers, it's not as if the Geth had a great deal of positive influence to learn from. If anything, the Quarian species was exceptionally lucky that the Geth even bothered to let the survivors flee at all, when it would probably have served them best to finish them off as they turned tail.

But really, this kind of goes to the issue of how you define what is innocent or guilty. If the geth are not actually a valid form of life, then all of the things inherent with actual life forms no longer apply, such as guilt. A toaster is not guilty when it shocks you for sticking a fork in it. A car is not guilty for breaking down, and a computer is not guilty when you lose crucial data in a crash.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 04 septembre 2013 - 12:45 .

[Sir DeLoria]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Quarians tried to kill the Geth, the Geth just killed them right back. I think that's fair play, Quarians are just butt-hurt cause they sucked at the game.

Well, except that at some point the Geth decided to kill those, who didn't want to play in the first place, as well. I guess at some point they realized, that they'd just killed a few million innocent people and let the last bunch run for their lives. If they'd ever return, they'd of course still be shot on sight.

[Sir DeLoria]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Who said collective guilt? You're leaving out the part where the Quarians, collective responsibility or no, are threatening the Geth. The Geth don't have the capacity to distinguish much more than the fact that they're being attacked.

It doesn't matter who or why, only that they are. They're thinking hasn't advanced to the point where they can make a distinction to whom they're fighting. They're simply retaliating out of panicked rage against anything that moves because that's the only way that they will stop being attacked. They don't have the collective mental facilities yet to distinguish combatants from non-combatants. It's very animalistic. 

No animal that you provoke is going to stop and reason that only one or two of the group of humans are attacking it. They're going to attack everyone in self-defense.

So no, I don't believe it's right to judge the Geth. They're incapable of being judged really. 

Who said collective guilt? You constantly blame the entirety of the Quarian race for what some of them attempted in the Morning War. You're right, the Geth are like a raging animal. A raging animal that needs to be put down.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...

Quarians tried to kill the Geth, the Geth just killed them right back. I think that's fair play, Quarians are just butt-hurt cause they sucked at the game.

Well, except that at some point the Geth decided to kill those, who didn't want to play in the first place, as well. I guess at some point they realized, that they'd just killed a few million innocent people and let the last bunch run for their lives. If they'd ever return, they'd of course still be shot on sight.

3 people have now explained this to you.

Now you're in denial.

[Sir DeLoria]

KaiserShep wrote...

Necanor wrote...
Like I said in the edit, it's an explanation, but it doesn't make the Geth innocent.

Actually, being in a state of intellectual infancy does make them innocent. However the geth were to behave and develop depended largely, if not entirely, on how their creators treated them, and since the Geth's abstract questions were left unanswered, save for the destruction of both themselves and their sympathizers, it's not as if the Geth had a great deal of positive influence to learn from. If anything, the Quarian species was exceptionally lucky that the Geth even bothered to let the survivors flee at all, when it would probably have served them best to finish them off as they turned tail.

But really, this kind of goes to the issue of how you define what is innocent or guilty. If the geth are not actually a valid form of life, then all of the things inherent with actual life forms no longer apply, such as guilt. A toaster is not guilty when it shocks you for sticking a fork in it. A car is not guilty for breaking down, and a computer is not guilty when you lose crucial data in a crash.

So you say I should stop trying to judge the Geth and instead treat them like a malfunctioning object, that needs to be disassembled? Sure, works for me as well:D

[KaiserShep]

No. What I'm saying is that it's kind of a double standard. The Geth are "evil" because they killed Quarians, but typically, the people who say this also don't consider the Geth a valid form of life, which is contradictory.

It's easy for us to consider the lives of innocent civilians when we actually have hundreds if not thousands of years of history from which we can draw crucial context. Without this context, members of a species that threaten the entirety of your kind's existence is representative of the entire species.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 04 septembre 2013 - 12:51 .

[Sir DeLoria]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...
Quarians tried to kill the Geth, the Geth just killed them right back. I think that's fair play, Quarians are just butt-hurt cause they sucked at the game.

Well, except that at some point the Geth decided to kill those, who didn't want to play in the first place, as well. I guess at some point they realized, that they'd just killed a few million innocent people and let the last bunch run for their lives. If they'd ever return, they'd of course still be shot on sight.

3 people have now explained this to you.

Now you're in denial.

You're not "explaining" anything, you're expressing your view of the circumstances. I merely disagree with many of them.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Who said collective guilt? You're leaving out the part where the Quarians, collective responsibility or no, are threatening the Geth. The Geth don't have the capacity to distinguish much more than the fact that they're being attacked.

It doesn't matter who or why, only that they are. They're thinking hasn't advanced to the point where they can make a distinction to whom they're fighting. They're simply retaliating out of panicked rage against anything that moves because that's the only way that they will stop being attacked. They don't have the collective mental facilities yet to distinguish combatants from non-combatants. It's very animalistic. 

No animal that you provoke is going to stop and reason that only one or two of the group of humans are attacking it. They're going to attack everyone in self-defense.

So no, I don't believe it's right to judge the Geth. They're incapable of being judged really. 

Who said collective guilt?

Not me. You keep bringing it up, so it must be you.

You constantly blame the entirety of the Quarian race for what some of them attempted in the Morning War.

No I don't. You keep saying that, but I never said it.

You're right, the Geth are like a raging animal. A raging animal that needs to be put down.

Such butthurt.

A  wild animal that was deliberately threatened by the 'intelligent' species that should have known better than to provoke a wild animal. Now it is a raging animal. 

And it's the Quarians fault entirely.

It's not the animals fault at all. The Quarians are simply reaping what they sowed.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 04 septembre 2013 - 12:51 .

[Steelcan]

I don't want to jump in on this. Can we get back on topic?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Greylycantrope wrote...
Quarians tried to kill the Geth, the Geth just killed them right back. I think that's fair play, Quarians are just butt-hurt cause they sucked at the game.

Well, except that at some point the Geth decided to kill those, who didn't want to play in the first place, as well. I guess at some point they realized, that they'd just killed a few million innocent people and let the last bunch run for their lives. If they'd ever return, they'd of course still be shot on sight.

3 people have now explained this to you.

Now you're in denial.

You're not "explaining" anything, you're expressing your view of the circumstances. I merely disagree with many of them.

We've explained to you how it is impossible to hold the Geth accountable for their actions. 

And you've expressed no logic or critical thinking beyond emotional anger that something bad happened to the Quarians as your counter. Therefor, your disagreements are irrelevant. Tell me why I should find fault with the Geth, and if it makes sense, I'll accept it. If it doesn't, I'll contest it and counter it (and likely do so successfully).

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 04 septembre 2013 - 12:54 .

[Sir DeLoria]

KaiserShep wrote...

It's easy for us to consider the lives of innocent civilians when we actually have hundreds if not thousands of years of history from which we can draw crucial context. Without this context, members of a species that threaten the entirety of your kind's existence is representative of the entire species.

I disagree, collective guilt is illogical. The Geth express this themselves before the Morning War. Too bad they forgot about it later on.

[Sir DeLoria]

@Massively It would involve a lot of searching, but I'm 100% certain, that we had the discussion about collective guilt before. You mentioned, that the Quarian race as an entirety is responsible for their own near destruction.

[rekn2]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Sure, your theory explains why the Geth did what they did, but it doesn't render them free of judgement.

Then how do you judge a bear that kills a family because one of the kids was stupid and wouldn't stop poking it with a stick? Is that an atrocity? 

I think it is. On the part of the kid and the family. Obviously, the Geth/Quarian situation is a lot more complex, but I do hold all atrocities as being ultimately the fault of the Quarians.

if we take the holograms at face value the quarians instigated the fight, they started it. if the quarians hant had such disdain they couldve learned from the geth

[Iakus]

Steelcan wrote...

I don't want to jump in on this. Can we get back on topic?

So, yeah, the death of all synthetic life is just an arbitrary tragedy tacked on to Destroy to make it less palatable.  

Think this is the kind of debate they wanted to instill?  "How badly does X ending suck"?

[Sir DeLoria]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

And you've expressed no logic or critical thinking beyond emotional anger that something bad happened to the Quarians as your counter. Therefor, your disagreements are irrelevant. Tell me why I should find fault with the Geth, and if it makes sense, I'll accept it. If it doesn't, I'll contest it and counter it (and likely do so successfully).

I've explained this a few times before. One of the very first independent Geth units asks the following "This unit has done nothing wrong, why is it punished?". The Geth hereby show, that they are even in a young state very much capable of distinguishing combatants from non-combatants and people responsible from those not responsible. Nevertheless, they decide to do the exact same thing they decry on a much, much more grand scale than originally applied to them. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

@Massively It would involve a lot of searching, but I'm 100% certain, that we had the discussion about collective guilt before. You mentioned, that the Quarian race as an entirety is responsible for their own near destruction.

They are responsible for their own destruction. They aren't responsible for the exact actions of their military and government, but they are guilty by their philosophy and inaction to do anything to change either the military or the government. They put themselves into a position where they wouldn't matter and had no weight. They let the extremists and jackwagons lead them and represent them. It's their fault for tolerating idiots like Xen and Gerrel. Through their own inaction they are responsible for their own demise.

[rekn2]

theres not even an argument here, lame.