333 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

Necanor,

Consider for a moment that there are no terms of surrender that involves survival. Surrender is tantamount to accepting extinction. Whether or not the Geth have the capacity to consider innocent civilians is immaterial at that point, because there's no way to target strictly the aggressors of the species as those sympathetic to the geth are increasingly outnumbered. Basically, it's either kill them back, or be wiped into oblivion. So there's nowhere to go, and no way to convince the instigators of the conflict to consider an agreement that does not involve dismantling the Geth. In the Geth's position, most of us would have probably wiped them out once and for all.

Ironically, it was the geth's infancy that drove them to spare their creators in the first place. Had this conflict simply started long after, the geth may have simply wiped them out and disregarded the idea.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 04 septembre 2013 - 01:05 .

[Sir DeLoria]

rekn2 wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor wrote...
Sure, your theory explains why the Geth did what they did, but it doesn't render them free of judgement.

Then how do you judge a bear that kills a family because one of the kids was stupid and wouldn't stop poking it with a stick? Is that an atrocity? 

I think it is. On the part of the kid and the family. Obviously, the Geth/Quarian situation is a lot more complex, but I do hold all atrocities as being ultimately the fault of the Quarians.

if we take the holograms at face value the quarians instigated the fight, they started it. if the quarians hant had such disdain they couldve learned from the geth

It's true, the Quarian military shouldn't have recklessly tried to eliminate the Geth. However, the Quarian government was obliged by council law, to forcefully deactivate any possible AIs. Also, the Quarian fear of a Geth rebellion was very much justified. Rogue AIs are extremely dangerous, Hannibal is a good example.

[KaiserShep]

Unfortunately, abiding by the law is not always the most effective excuse. There are some good example of laws that existed in our own history that we would find abhorrent present day. Heck there are some laws still around in parts of the world that I spit on.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 04 septembre 2013 - 01:07 .

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

And you've expressed no logic or critical thinking beyond emotional anger that something bad happened to the Quarians as your counter. Therefor, your disagreements are irrelevant. Tell me why I should find fault with the Geth, and if it makes sense, I'll accept it. If it doesn't, I'll contest it and counter it (and likely do so successfully).

I've explained this a few times before. One of the very first independent Geth units asks the following "This unit has done nothing wrong, why is it punished?". The Geth hereby show, that they are even in a young state very much capable of distinguishing combatants from non-combatants and people responsible from those not responsible.

And this is one individual Geth unit that has achieved sapience with the collective number of Geth programs aboard a single particular platform being relatively high among the total population of Geth programs during that time period. When they are equally disseminated among platforms, they are, collectively, little more than animals.

Nevertheless, they decide to do the exact same thing they decry on a much, much more grand scale than originally applied to them. 

Aside from the rebuttal I just gave that applies to the first part of your statement, the "much, much more grand scale" is a farce that you've invented as a means to make the death of the Quarians seem worse than the death of the Geth (or anyone else) due to a double-standard that you're making for the Quarians. 

It's no more grand than it was for the Geth. And no better or worse, except that the Quarians conscientiously and willfully, with full mental facilities, opted to initiate genocide.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

rekn2 wrote...
theres not even an argument here, lame.

Really, there's not. 

His entire argument and philosophy stems from a desperate double standard for the Quarians that he holds for some reason. I see a rather rabid Tali fan.

"Oooohhh, Shepard-kun, save my people and I will make love to you! Aguuuuu!"

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 04 septembre 2013 - 01:08 .

[Sir DeLoria]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor wrote...

@Massively It would involve a lot of searching, but I'm 100% certain, that we had the discussion about collective guilt before. You mentioned, that the Quarian race as an entirety is responsible for their own near destruction.

They are responsible for their own destruction. They aren't responsible for the exact actions of their military and government, but they are guilty by their philosophy and inaction to do anything to change either the military or the government. They put themselves into a position where they wouldn't matter and had no weight. They let the extremists and jackwagons lead them and represent them. It's their fault for tolerating idiots like Xen and Gerrel. Through their own inaction they are responsible for their own demise.

Humans have shown to do the exact same thing. The amount of insane and ruthless world leaders throughout history is huge. But we're speculating here, we don't know anythingg about the pre-war Quarian government.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor wrote...

@Massively It would involve a lot of searching, but I'm 100% certain, that we had the discussion about collective guilt before. You mentioned, that the Quarian race as an entirety is responsible for their own near destruction.

They are responsible for their own destruction. They aren't responsible for the exact actions of their military and government, but they are guilty by their philosophy and inaction to do anything to change either the military or the government. They put themselves into a position where they wouldn't matter and had no weight. They let the extremists and jackwagons lead them and represent them. It's their fault for tolerating idiots like Xen and Gerrel. Through their own inaction they are responsible for their own demise.

Humans have shown to do the exact same thing. The amount of insane and ruthless world leaders throughout history is huge. But we're speculating here, we don't know anythingg about the pre-war Quarian government.

Yes, we have. What's your point? 

We haven't done anything as destructively idiotic as the Quarians fortunately. Quarian government policy doesn't really have a purpose here. The actions of their government outside this aren't really being looked at analyzed, mainly because they have nothing to do with the problem. It doesn't matter what their government was like - they screwed up royally with the Geth, and it nearly wiped out their race. 300 years later, they haven't learned their lesson. They're poised to wipe out their race again for good.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 04 septembre 2013 - 01:12 .

[KaiserShep]

"But again, truth be told, if you're looking for the guilty, you need only look into a mirror." ~V

[Sir DeLoria]

Of course I hold a double standart against the Geth. I don't see them as living beings, the Quarians obviously are.

[Sir DeLoria]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Yes, we have. What's your point? 

We haven't done anything as destructively idiotic as the Quarians fortunately.

If certain conflicts throughout human history had played out differently, I'm not sure that would be the case.

[Sir DeLoria]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

rekn2 wrote...
theres not even an argument here, lame.

Really, there's not. 

His entire argument and philosophy stems from a desperate double standard for the Quarians that he holds for some reason. I see a rather rabid Tali fan.

"Oooohhh, Shepard-kun, save my people and I will make love to you! Aguuuuu!"

Wait, is that last part supposed to be funny? Well, obviously you're not a comedian.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

Of course I hold a double standart against the Geth. I don't see them as living beings, the Quarians obviously are.

Than that's bias on your part. 

Firstly, you're claiming that the Geth aren't living beings, yet holding them to the standard of living beings. That doesn't follow, unless you acknowledge that they are living beings... In which case, I've already told you how they aren't guilty.

That said, it goes back to machines and technology as someone else mentioned.

If the Geth are simple machines, then it was the Quarians fault for sticking their hand in the blender. It was the Quarians fault for sticking the fork in the outlet. It was the Quarians fault for playing Russian Roulette. It was the Quarians fault for banging a hammer on the dynamite. It was the Quarians fault for running with scissors.

If you didn't fuck with the machine, you wouldn't have done wiped out your race.

Whether or not the Geth are alive or not is irrelevant. It's the Quarians fault. Entirely. And yes, you can bring that out more and broaden it to all organic races for being irrationally fearful of synthetics.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 04 septembre 2013 - 01:20 .

[KaiserShep]

Necanor wrote...

Of course I hold a double standart against the Geth. I don't see them as living beings, the Quarians obviously are.

Applying rules to different groups unfairly doesn't work. The geth are either considered guilty, or they're not living beings. You can't get both. At the same time, if they're not living beings, then fault lies entirely on the Quarians, since they're just machines reacting violently to violent influence.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 04 septembre 2013 - 01:17 .

[Sir DeLoria]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor wrote...
Of course I hold a double standart against the Geth. I don't see them as living beings, the Quarians obviously are.

Than that's bias on your part. 
Firstly, you're claiming that the Geth aren't living beings, yet holding them to the standard of living beings.

That said, it goes back to machines and technology as someone else mentioned.

If the Geth are simple machines, then it was the Quarians fault for sticking their hand in the blender. It was the Quarians fault for sticking the fork in the outlet. It was the Quarians fault for playing Russian Roulette. It was the Quarians fault for banging a hammer on the dynamite. It was the Quarians fault for running with scissors.

If you didn't fuck with the machine, you wouldn't have done wiped out your race.

To a slight extent I agree, the Geth should never have been created in the first place. The Quarians did a big mistake the day the first Geth was built. That also means however, that I have no quarrels with dissasembling the Geth once and for all. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

rekn2 wrote...
theres not even an argument here, lame.

Really, there's not. 

His entire argument and philosophy stems from a desperate double standard for the Quarians that he holds for some reason. I see a rather rabid Tali fan.

"Oooohhh, Shepard-kun, save my people and I will make love to you! Aguuuuu!"

Wait, is that last part supposed to be funny? Well, obviously you're not a comedian.

It's sardonic humor that I'm using to describe why I think you're so anti-Geth. 

You just want to beTali. And boink her.

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 04 septembre 2013 - 01:25 .

[Sir DeLoria]

KaiserShep wrote...

Necanor wrote...

Of course I hold a double standart against the Geth. I don't see them as living beings, the Quarians obviously are.

Applying rules to different groups unfairly doesn't work. The geth are either considered guilty, or they're not living beings. You can't get both. At the same time, if they're not living beings, then fault lies entirely on the Quarians, since they're just machines reacting violently to violent influence.

The border between the two is not that black and white. While the Geth are not organic, they do have the necessary capacity to make decisions and think in a matter, that is to some extent comparable to organics. On the other hand, they're sense of judgement is somewhat inferior to organics. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Necanor wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor wrote...
Of course I hold a double standart against the Geth. I don't see them as living beings, the Quarians obviously are.

Than that's bias on your part. 
Firstly, you're claiming that the Geth aren't living beings, yet holding them to the standard of living beings.

That said, it goes back to machines and technology as someone else mentioned.

If the Geth are simple machines, then it was the Quarians fault for sticking their hand in the blender. It was the Quarians fault for sticking the fork in the outlet. It was the Quarians fault for playing Russian Roulette. It was the Quarians fault for banging a hammer on the dynamite. It was the Quarians fault for running with scissors.

If you didn't fuck with the machine, you wouldn't have done wiped out your race.

To a slight extent I agree, the Geth should never have been created in the first place. The Quarians did a big mistake the day the first Geth was built. That also means however, that I have no quarrels with dissasembling the Geth once and for all. 

There's a step in the right direction. You're acknowledging that the Quarians are 100% fundamentally at fault for their entire predicament.

But why would you make machines that are sentient and possibly sapient that acknowledge themselves as no threat and vigorously call for them to be disassembled?

What's the point of disassembling them? They're carrying out their function, and they aren't hurting anybody (at least not the ones that weren't built for hurting anyone. And the ones that were built for that function are under full control of the military).

Modifié par MassivelyEffective0730, 04 septembre 2013 - 01:27 .

[o Ventus]

Necanor wrote...

Of course I hold a double standart against the Geth. I don't see them as living beings, the Quarians obviously are.

You are fully aware that this renders everything you say on the topic completely irrelevant, right?

[Mcfly616]

iakus wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I don't want to jump in on this. Can we get back on topic?

So, yeah, the death of all synthetic life is just an arbitrary tragedy tacked on to Destroy to make it less palatable.  

Think this is the kind of debate they wanted to instill?  "How badly does X ending suck"?

or it simply makes sense because the Geth make up like 99% of all synthetic life in our galaxy.....oh, and they all have Reaper Code.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Mcfly616 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I don't want to jump in on this. Can we get back on topic?

So, yeah, the death of all synthetic life is just an arbitrary tragedy tacked on to Destroy to make it less palatable.  

Think this is the kind of debate they wanted to instill?  "How badly does X ending suck"?

or it simply makes sense because the Geth make up like 99% of all synthetic life in our galaxy.....oh, and they all have Reaper Code.

Wouldn't it make more sense for the Reaper Code to be deleted though? In which case, your only real casualty is EDI? 

[o Ventus]

Mcfly616 wrote...

or it simply makes sense because the Geth make up like 99% of all synthetic life in our galaxy.....oh, and they all have Reaper Code.

I don't see what Reaper coding has to do with it. Presumably, every other VI in existence is wiped out as well (unless there's an arbitrary, unexplained hard distinction between simple technology and "synthetic life"), but literally none of those have Reaper programming.

[Sir DeLoria]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

There's a step in the right direction. You're acknowledging that the Quarians are 100% fundamentally at fault for their entire predicament.

But why would you make machines that are sentient and possibly sapient that acknowledge themselves as no threat and vigorously call for them to be disassembled?

What's the point of disassembling them? They're carrying out their function, and they aren't hurting anybody (at least not the ones that weren't built for hurting anyone. And the ones that were built for that function are under full control of the military).

AIs are dangerous, very dangerous. The Quarian were right in their fear, that the Geth would one day rebell, evn if no action was taken. Just look at what happened to the Alliance on Luna.

[Sir DeLoria]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Necanor wrote...

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

rekn2 wrote...
theres not even an argument here, lame.

Really, there's not. 

His entire argument and philosophy stems from a desperate double standard for the Quarians that he holds for some reason. I see a rather rabid Tali fan.

"Oooohhh, Shepard-kun, save my people and I will make love to you! Aguuuuu!"

Wait, is that last part supposed to be funny? Well, obviously you're not a comedian.

It's sardonic humor that I'm using to describe why I think you're so anti-Geth. 
You just want to beTali. And boink her.

It's not that simple really.

[Mcfly616]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

I don't want to jump in on this. Can we get back on topic?

So, yeah, the death of all synthetic life is just an arbitrary tragedy tacked on to Destroy to make it less palatable.  

Think this is the kind of debate they wanted to instill?  "How badly does X ending suck"?

or it simply makes sense because the Geth make up like 99% of all synthetic life in our galaxy.....oh, and they all have Reaper Code.

Wouldn't it make more sense for the Reaper Code to be deleted though? In which case, your only real casualty is EDI? 

the Crucible is crude. It doesn't delete. It purges.

[o Ventus]

Necanor wrote...

AIs are dangerous, very dangerous. The Quarian were right in their fear, that the Geth would one day rebell, evn if no action was taken. Just look at what happened to the Alliance on Luna.

It's logically impossible for the quarians to have been right, because they prevented something that was never guaranteed to happen in the first place. By all accounts, the geth were 'happy' with their existence. That would be like destroying Apple because Siri gave me a bad answer to a question.

I also like the fallacy you incur by comparing the incident with the geth/quarians to the Luna VI. Those things are so vastly unrelated, it isn't even funny.