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Another reason potential reason to not include multiplayer in DA:I?


128 réponses à ce sujet

#101
devSin

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AlanC9 wrote...

Different gameplay without MP? I imagine so. If anything this is an argument in favor of MP; ME3 had the best gameplay of the series.

No, it's about responding to inaccuracies with further inaccuracy.

I don't think saying "additional resources" is any better than whatever it's being said in response to—the situation as I understand it is nowhere near that simple, and generalizing in one direction is much the same as generalizing in the other.

Which is why my response quoted Allan (and questioned him, so he could correct any mistaken impressions I may have) and not somebody who is arguing one way or the other about multiplayer being a good thing or a bad thing. That's not an argument I have much interest in.

Modifié par devSin, 06 septembre 2013 - 06:25 .


#102
Plaintiff

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LinksOcarina wrote...

Jaulen wrote...

Cylanthegreat wrote...

I want multiplayer in Inquisition. ME3's multiplayer component was made by Bioware's Montreal division, and I assume they or another studio would be handling the Dragon Age multiplayer while Edmonton handled single player, so it's not like having multiplayer is going to take away from the main campaign. Additionally, I've wanted to play with friends since the Origins days, where we all sat around in a party playing Origins.



I call BS.

How did you sit around playing with friends in Origins?


MST3K it? Take turns? 

Do you guys seriously sit in basements by yourself all the time? 

Yes. I've evolved into a completely sedentary life form. Similar to a seasponge or starfish.

#103
dduane o

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If the multiplayer of this game turns out to be just king of the hill, round, horde mode due to the Keep mechanic then it might get old, if fashioned like Mass Effect style horde type. If the multiplayer is an exploration through out the maps and having quests then it might have worthwhile potential.

For now though, even though EA wants every game under its supervision wants a multiplayer, this game could prove to EA that DA:I don't need multiplayer because of its story and content, and this is how this game is suppose to be played, no multiplayer and solely just a single palyer adventure.

If there is no way around to persuade EA that DA:I doesn't need multiplayer, then make the multiplayer a DLC, which can be release a year later like Awakening to Orgins. An adventure through out the maps that continues how far the inquisition reach, the aftermath of the fade tear being close, the new orders of organization growing again in which BioWare created characters are seen to be shaping the world. The organizations can still be fighting with each other and trying to control Thedas by taking territories,

The players would create characters, adventure throughout the land, join faction and probably try to take over thedas by taking keeps, destroying other organization strongholds but fashioned that the player have a choice whether they just want to finish quests that are being given.

Probably can be fashion like SWTOR style of mission completion. No followers, except players

#104
Taura-Tierno

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The topic MP in DA is easy for me:

If the MP is good, fantastic! I might play it.

If the MP is not good, I won't play it, and I won't care.

As long as it's not required for the single player campaign (which I doubt), and as long as its development is not taken from the single-player campaign (which I cannot imagine) ... I simply don't care either way. If they did manage it in a good way, I guess that might be fun. But it would hardly hurt the single player campaign.

#105
Allan Schumacher

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But is it really true? Would we have ended up with no N7 missions, or would the people doing multiplayer have spent their time making something other than horde-mode arenas that could be populated with the barest of story for reuse in the single-player campaign?

Not to mention the probable technical mandates that came from incorporating multiplayer into the engine. Or that unfortunate war assets system. Or the multitude of horribly balanced weapons. Or the cookie-cutter enemy faction composition. Etc.


Unfortunately it's hard to say one way or another.

There's no guarantees that the people would have still been working on Mass Effect. Many people were explicitly hired on, and they may simply have just not been hired on.

Yes, there's likely some spill over (though it works both ways... people working on multiplayer can still help out the single player experience as well) in terms of decisions being made to accommodate both, but the fact is that a feature like MP, especially since it has its own revenue strategy that supplements the main game, can justify additional expenditure.

I mean, remember when there were the bigger EA layoffs, and there were some tweets from BioWare staffers and other articles about how BioWare was experiencing some layoffs as well? The reason for that is because of the extension. Many contract staffers were just let go, as well as some full time permanent employees? Why? Because while we have a time extension, and we did get additional funding, the funding model didn't call for the specific manpower capacity (which was ramping up due to the game's release date being less than a year away) to be maintained for an additional year. As a result, while I think the news and decision is fantastic for the project, it meant some people lost their jobs as a result.


And even if we just accept that all those people would have been fired
or reassigned if there was no multiplayer component, it doesn't seem
credible to suggest that priorities would have remained the same for the
project (given a lot of the design—weapons, powers, enemies, etc.—seem
to indicate heavy coordination and cooperation between the two teams).


This is simply a logical construct, which may or may not be true, unfortunately.  Although at least you're willing to acknowledge that the people working on multiplayer would still be contributing to the SP game, which undermines the perspective that Multiplayer exclusively sucks resources out of the game.

Why doesn't it seem credible to suggest that the priorities for things like weapons, powers, and so forth, remain the same?  I actually don't know the answer to that question, but is it believed to be true simply because it supports your concerns?  Is it possible that the priorities of the single player game were what led to the multiplayer experience?  That is, that the multiplayer team looked at what the single player game had, and worked with those constraints?  Or is that just not even remotely possible?

Modifié par Allan Schumacher, 06 septembre 2013 - 08:35 .


#106
Sylvius the Mad

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Maria Caliban wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Do you guys seriously sit in basements by yourself all the time?

I suspect a large number of PC users do just that.

We like it down here.

#107
Xewaka

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Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...
Do you guys seriously sit in basements by yourself all the time?

I suspect a large number of PC users do just that.

We like it down here.

We have blankets. It's cozy.

#108
Fredvdp

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Maria Caliban wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

MST3K it? Take turns? 

Do you guys seriously sit in basements by yourself all the time? 

I suspect a large number of PC users do just that.

It's called a command center.

#109
devSin

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

This is simply a logical construct, which may or may not be true, unfortunately.  Although at least you're willing to acknowledge that the people working on multiplayer would still be contributing to the SP game, which undermines the perspective that Multiplayer exclusively sucks resources out of the game.

Dilutes resources, perhaps?

I think it's beside the issue in many ways, unless it's true that multiplayer is its own walled garden to which nothing comes and from which nothing ever gets taken—saying they get their own funds is tantamount to saying they suck resources out of the game (both can be true, so neither is really saying anything worthwhile).

It seems to be a meta argument that has little actual value; it's not really addressing the concerns people seem to have when the scope shifts to include multiplayer gameplay (even if they're not able to express it in a way other than saying it "sucks resources out of the game"), unless you truly mean to say that not a single thing in the rest of the project changes to accommodate the new focus.

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Why doesn't it seem credible to suggest that the priorities for things like weapons, powers, and so forth, remain the same?  I actually don't know the answer to that question, but is it believed to be true simply because it supports your concerns?  Is it possible that the priorities of the single player game were what led to the multiplayer experience?  That is, that the multiplayer team looked at what the single player game had, and worked with those constraints?  Or is that just not even remotely possible?

I just don't see how it's possible these things wouldn't have been influenced by multiplayer requirements. It doesn't seem "remotely possible", as you say, that single-player would have been done in a vacuum, given things like the number of weapons, the mod system, and the evenly balanced enemy factions.

Would there have been combat rolls without multiplayer? Sure, it's possible. But would everything have been the same (suggesting that every decision made would be the same and that the people working on multiplayer could contribute nothing more to single-player if it was the only focus)? That's what I don't believe is credible.

"Supporting my concerns" in this case is the inherent uselessness of saying something like multiplayer having a separate budget (I'm not attempting to argue for or against multiplayer; I have no interest in multiplayer, but as long as it isn't something like Galaxy at War contaminating the single-player game, I don't much care about it) in response to a concern about how the inclusion of multiplayer will affect the game overall.

Modifié par devSin, 06 septembre 2013 - 05:42 .


#110
Ozzy

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I actually enjoyed the MP in ME3 to my surprise. It was good fun. Although I can't envision how DA would implement, I'm still interested to see what happens.

Wasn't the original intention for Dragon Age to have multiplayer anyway? I remember reading something about it including the best of all Bioware franchises in a piece from years ago (Banter from Baldur's Gate, Multiplayer from NWN etc).

#111
snackrat

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I still play ME3 MP though, even though a lot of my team have moved on.

Okay, no I haven't played it entirely for the last pfff whenever, because I took a break after they stopped patching/updating and only picked it up again a week ago. But I enjoy it regardless.
ME3 had great gameplay but the story was not very well-recieved (well... not that ending). MP has that gameplay without "bawwww relays blew up bawwww".

#112
DrDeeft

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I am not a fan of MP in general, but I must confess I really enjoyed MP in the Mass Effect 3 game, and I am still playing that stuff.

However, the setup for MP in DAI is pretty much leading to the same situation as it was for MP in MA3.

Shepard ran the N7 team, and it was N7 operatives who went to locations opened by shepard to continue the fight with the bad guys.

The Inquisitor is an established power, fighting for control over regions with keeps etc, and has agents that carry out his will.

The equation looks familiar to me.

#113
LinksOcarina

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Xewaka wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...
Do you guys seriously sit in basements by yourself all the time?

I suspect a large number of PC users do just that.

We like it down here.

We have blankets. It's cozy.


I like being cozy too. Sometimes you can do that with another person you know. 

#114
Maria Caliban

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AstusOz wrote...

Wasn't the original intention for Dragon Age to have multiplayer anyway? I remember reading something about it including the best of all Bioware franchises in a piece from years ago (Banter from Baldur's Gate, Multiplayer from NWN etc).

Yes. The original Dragon Age was going to have a single-player and multi-player campaign.

#115
devSin

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Yeah, they said they were going to have a version of the single-player campaign that was actually tailored for multiple players (in the past, the support had either just been incidental or outright discouraged).

I wonder why they ultimately decided to drop multiplayer entirely.

Modifié par devSin, 06 septembre 2013 - 09:41 .


#116
Wulfram

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The only things I'd really see as influence from MP, aside from the war assets being borked, was the weapon upgrade system. Which was profoundly pointless in single player, but key to MP advancement - and monetisation.

Though even that could just be a bad feature stuck in to make things look more RPGey rather than actually being down to MP.

Modifié par Wulfram, 06 septembre 2013 - 09:36 .


#117
devSin

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I don't think it was any coincidence that all three enemy factions had equivalent balance (with the same number of units and unit roles).

#118
Wulfram

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devSin wrote...

I don't think it was any coincidence that all three enemy factions had equivalent balance (with the same number of units and unit roles).


Doesn't seem very different from ME2

#119
.shea.

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If there's mp and it's similar to BG/NWN I might give it a whirl, it's been awhile since I played those with friends. Hopefully it isn't another horde mode clone, again (that is, if it actually exists).

#120
Pheonix57

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Personally, I would love Multiplayer in DA:I. I mean, honestly, after I beat ME3 I never touched the storyline again. And... we all know why.

But the MP was freaking awesome!

#121
Maria Caliban

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devSin wrote...

I don't think it was any coincidence that all three enemy factions had equivalent balance (with the same number of units and unit roles).


I'm not sure what you mean. The Geth had nothing like phantoms or engineer+turret. Neither the Geth or Cerberus had anything like a Brute.

I mean, they all had mook -> specialized units -> boss but the various roles and behaviors were quite different.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 06 septembre 2013 - 09:52 .


#122
devSin

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It means just that. The factions were all equivalently balanced (balance as in composition, not gameplay attributes). You had your mooks, your specialists/casters, and your elite (and no more).

ME2, in contrast, had weaker enemy design but had more variance (you got things like the rachni-ripoffs or varren or mechs or doofus krogan). ME3 has factions that seem tailor made for horde mode, first and foremost.

Modifié par devSin, 06 septembre 2013 - 10:02 .


#123
Iakus

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devSin wrote...

It means just that. The factions were all equivalently balanced (balance as in composition, not gameplay attributes). You had your mooks, your specialists/casters, and your elite (and no more).

ME2, in contrast, had weaker enemy design but had more variance (you got things like the rachni-ripoffs or varren or mechs or doofus krogan). ME3 has factions that seem tailor made for horde mode, first and foremost.


Not exactly a good thing.  I prefer variety over balance in most cases.

#124
AlanC9

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devSin wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Different gameplay without MP? I imagine so. If anything this is an argument in favor of MP; ME3 had the best gameplay of the series.

No, it's about responding to inaccuracies with further inaccuracy.

I don't think saying "additional resources" is any better than whatever it's being said in response to—the situation as I understand it is nowhere near that simple, and generalizing in one direction is much the same as generalizing in the other.

Which is why my response quoted Allan (and questioned him, so he could correct any mistaken impressions I may have) and not somebody who is arguing one way or the other about multiplayer being a good thing or a bad thing. That's not an argument I have much interest in.


So there was... no actual argument? Just a hypothetical possibility that it's not inconceivable that a version of DAI without MP might somehow have more resources devoted to the SP component? I guess I really didn't follow what you were up to there.

Modifié par AlanC9, 06 septembre 2013 - 11:03 .


#125
AlanC9

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devSin wrote...
It seems to be a meta argument that has little actual value; it's not really addressing the concerns people seem to have when the scope shifts to include multiplayer gameplay (even if they're not able to express it in a way other than saying it "sucks resources out of the game"), unless you truly mean to say that not a single thing in the rest of the project changes to accommodate the new focus.


OK, this seems a bit clearer. You're saying that there's a rhetoric mismatch between what people are concerned about and what they say they're concerned about? Yeah, I can see that. It happens all the fracking time on the ME3 board, usually WRT the ending.

But then the question is why MP is assumed to be a problem. I don't see a link between MP and worse gameplay, or even any coherent way MP-influenced gameplay would be different except that you want better class balance or people won't play some classes.

Would there have been combat rolls without multiplayer? Sure, it's possible. But would everything have been the same (suggesting that every decision made would be the same and that the people working on multiplayer could contribute nothing more to single-player if it was the only focus)? That's what I don't believe is credible.


This is even less knowable than the resource question. Maybe the same, maybe different, maybe worse, maybe better. From what I can see DA:O could have used some MP thought, since the class balance was outright lousy.