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Is there a good reason for the actionRPG elements in DAI?


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#76
MrTijger

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DaringMoosejaw wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

cJohnOne wrote...

Well it's my bed time see you later,all.

You don't think they will get some skyrim fans?


I think we'd get some Skyrim fans because for some people, Skyrim was possibly their first RPG type of experience and they probably enjoyed it and they'll probably pay attention to other games that are similar.  Not because of any inclusion/omission of action RPG elements.


I think you'll get Skyrim fans because Skyrim is an excellent game that a broad swath of people bought and most folks are capable of buying RPGs with different mechanics and liking them both anyway. I loved Skyrim, but that doesn't mean I want all of my games to BE Skyrim. I'd rather just own both!


Even crazier, I own Skyrim, DA:O, DA 2 AND The Witcher 1 and 2! And I enjoy all of them! That should be enough to cause some people's heads to explode in itself Posted Image

#77
Dunvi

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Domecoming wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

So basically your question is: Will there be autoattack?

It wasn't specifically addressed at PAX that I heard, though it may be discernible through carefully watching the demo video. Or not.


More or less, yeah.

I enjoyed combat in both DA games (DAII significantly less, but because of encounter design more than anything else).
I do also enjoy, and am pretty good at ME3 MP and other action games, but the current combat design philosophy for DA games, while not perfect, works for me the way it is.

I can't possibly say that switching for action combat will be a 100% DEAL BREAKER for me yet, it's just that I would strongly prefer the foundations of it to stay the way they were in DA:O and DAII (automatic regular attacks with manually activated talents and spells).


I asked after one of the panels.

Auto attack was not fully implemented in the build they used for the demo, but they were implementing it at the time. It will absolutely exist. (If you recall, shorts, they discussed whatshisface going in and working his ass off to get a bunch of combat features in before the demo? that was basically the next one he was going for).

Also, because I see people talking about it, the dodges (including the teleport) are all activated abilities like the Rogue's in DA2. Supposed to have more precision, though, so you don't end up flying into a wall or something.

Modifié par Dunvi, 04 septembre 2013 - 10:07 .


#78
upsettingshorts

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Thanks for that followup. Yeah, the demo was a vertical slice they worked basically 8 weeks straight to complete, including some features (including tactical camera) that literally did not exist 9 weeks ago.

#79
Raging_Pulse

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Very glad to hear it, thanks!

#80
Wulfram

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The real question for me isn't the roll, but whether you can simply move out of the way of the enemy attacks, like you could in DA2.

That sort of thing is OK for the occasional special attack, but not for every attack. That just turns boss fights into dodge fests.

#81
Herr Uhl

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Wulfram wrote...

The real question for me isn't the roll, but whether you can simply move out of the way of the enemy attacks, like you could in DA2.

That sort of thing is OK for the occasional special attack, but not for every attack. That just turns boss fights into dodge fests.


On that note, are the regular attacks AOE like in DA2?

#82
metatheurgist

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Just as a bit preemptive measure (which is silly as I'm going to bed after this... don't make me come back to tears), I am pretty much in the camp of "RPGs have a rather looseish definition that many of us feel share larger scale elements, but some of the finer details can be disputed forever."

As such, I'd prefer we not go too far into defining what is or is not an RPG (or action RPG), as I find the precision of the definition is somewhat pliable and quite personal.

See...I want RPGs to have a solid definition. That way companies can't claim to be making an RPG when they aren't. When I buy shoes I want shoes not some loose interpretation of shoes. I am, however, willing to concede that the RPG definition boat has long since sailed away into the sea of marketing on the riptide of maximum demographic penetration and profitability. Posted Image

#83
Herr Uhl

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metatheurgist wrote...

When I buy shoes I want shoes not some loose interpretation of shoes.


Shoes are incredibly diverse. The only real unifier is that they go on your feet.

#84
Vapaa

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metatheurgist wrote...

See...I want RPGs to have a solid definition.


Then what definition are you proposing ?

#85
Kaiser Arian XVII

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

The definition of an rpg falls under the no true scotsman fallacy.


Absolutely this.

I mean you could attempt to make a serious thought exercise about it.  But even then discussion goes down such a  reductionist path that it fails to be a useful term in a genre categorizing sense.  Like "uses character stats to determine rate of success" would include Dragon Age, Skyrim, and... Madden.


Damn right. That's why Sonic the Hedgehog is better RPG than DA:O and even Madden!

#86
Maria Caliban

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cJohnOne wrote...

Why do you think they put them in?  May be to appeal to skyrim players?  Posted Image

Because they're fun.

Also, because BioWare has been making action RPGs for about a decade now.

#87
fchopin

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I want the ability to avoid getting hit, i don't like it when i am halve a mile away like in DAO and i still get hit.


Edit: I don't like fights where all the team gets hit from invisible magic (AI cheating) every few seconds so it makes them difficult.

Modifié par fchopin, 04 septembre 2013 - 01:20 .


#88
ted2643

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From the videos it looks like a great balance between action and tactical play on the fly

#89
Ieldra

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Kaiser of Hearts wrote...
What's an action rpg element?

An action RPG element is any element of a game marketed at least partly as a role-playing game where the success of an action, especially a combat action, depends on the hand/eye coordination and/or speed of the player rather than an ability or trait of the player *character*.

These days, almost all rpgs have some action elements, to my great disappointment. DAI will probably have less than DA2 (as if that's saying much) but still way too many for my tastes. At least the pause-at-any-time feature stays in, that makes up for a lot.

Having said that, I'm curious about whether the tactical view allows us to plan actions ahead and then let characters exercise them with no input from the player. That would be an interesting non-action rpg feature and make all the action-y stuff optional. The best of both worlds, really, and everyone would be able to play like they want.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 septembre 2013 - 01:30 .


#90
Ianamus

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I'd rather evade an attack because I actively dodged it than because I got lucky with some behind-the-scenes dice roll based on a dexterity stat.

It actually sounds more tactical, because it's not luck-based.

#91
Vilegrim

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Allan Schumacher wrote...

Just as a bit preemptive measure (which is silly as I'm going to bed after this... don't make me come back to tears), I am pretty much in the camp of "RPGs have a rather looseish definition that many of us feel share larger scale elements, but some of the finer details can be disputed forever."

As such, I'd prefer we not go too far into defining what is or is not an RPG (or action RPG), as I find the precision of the definition is somewhat pliable and quite personal.


But no response as to why, when it was stated that 'awesome button' was a thing of the past, it seems to be in full force, in fact to be turned up to 11, with warriors doing spells by waving a sword like a baseball bat, while the ground explodes and chains slam into random people...I mean seriously?  Is your combat system so fundemetally awful that everyone has to be a reskined mage?

Modifié par Vilegrim, 04 septembre 2013 - 01:41 .


#92
Ieldra

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EJ107 wrote...
I'd rather evade an attack because I actively dodged it than because I got lucky with some behind-the-scenes dice roll based on a dexterity stat.

It actually sounds more tactical, because it's not luck-based.

And what if you don't have the hand/eye coordination to time that roll effectively? I'd rather have a tactics screen where I can set the conditions under which I want my character to do the roll and then watch them do it without any timed input on my part. I'm also no at all averse to letting a behind-the-scenes roll determine if I actually manage to avoid an attack that way on a case-by-case basis.

One of the most important aspects of roleplaying is that your character can do things you can't, and that outcomes depend on your character's skills, not yours.  

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 septembre 2013 - 01:41 .


#93
Maria Caliban

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Ieldra2 wrote...

EJ107 wrote...
I'd rather evade an attack because I actively dodged it than because I got lucky with some behind-the-scenes dice roll based on a dexterity stat.

It actually sounds more tactical, because it's not luck-based.

And what if you don't have the hand/eye coordination to time that roll effectively?

Then give your character a shield and a high defense value.

Or have a warrior use a taunt skill.

Or have a mage use a freezing spell.

Or have a rogue use one of their small AOE stunning abilities.

All the classes have a CC ability. If characters you don't want to get hit are getting hit, it's because you're not managing the party. That's strange coming from someone who values classic party-based combat over 'action elements.'

#94
phunx

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Ieldra2 wrote...
And what if you don't have the hand/eye coordination to time that roll effectively? I'd rather have a tactics screen where I can set the conditions under which I want my character to do the roll and then watch them do it without any timed input on my part. I'm also no at all averse to letting a behind-the-scenes roll determine if I actually manage to avoid an attack that way on a case-by-case basis.

One of the most important aspects of roleplaying is that your character can do things you can't, and that outcomes depend on your character's skills, not yours.  


Pause and use the dodge ability in the pause menu? I am almost sure I will need to resort to that, since I'm not quick either.

#95
cJohnOne

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Well this topic started because of a conversation with Trafalger-law.  He expressed that he thought DAI looked like an action RPG and I thought it was an interesting topic.

I might have a terminology problem since only the rolling is actiony while the harpoon is a difficult to use so a gameplay problem for me.Posted ImagePosted Image

#96
Fast Jimmy

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metatheurgist wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Just as a bit preemptive measure (which is silly as I'm going to bed after this... don't make me come back to tears), I am pretty much in the camp of "RPGs have a rather looseish definition that many of us feel share larger scale elements, but some of the finer details can be disputed forever."

As such, I'd prefer we not go too far into defining what is or is not an RPG (or action RPG), as I find the precision of the definition is somewhat pliable and quite personal.

See...I want RPGs to have a solid definition. That way companies can't claim to be making an RPG when they aren't. When I buy shoes I want shoes not some loose interpretation of shoes. I am, however, willing to concede that the RPG definition boat has long since sailed away into the sea of marketing on the riptide of maximum demographic penetration and profitability. Posted Image


Do you consider sandals shoes? What about tennis shoes? High heels? Crocs?

If you are talking to a runner about shoes, they would look at you crazy if you started asking them how much they like a stilleto. Similarly, if you are talking to someone who works in a business/professional environment, asking them if they want a water-proof croc would likely have people scratching their heads.

A shoe isn't always a shoe. And a video game is infinitely more complex than a shoe. Anything with levels or stats was (and, in some circles, still is) considered an RPG. Someitmes a certain combat system works as people's definition. While other people may call a dialogue system of any sort the basis of an RPG. 

So, RPG, as a term, is hard to define. Which just means that people need to be more descriptive.



For instance, I feel that the Dragon Age series has been an RPG that rests on two core tenets - player character definition and control (meaning the player gets to create and define their own character, in terms of background, behavior, dialogue and combat class) and combat that allows full and equal control of party members (meaning I can control my companions and give them tasks just as fluidly and easily as I could the main character). I could easily call it a "Player Character Controlled RPG with Party-Based Combat."


To that end, having elements which are action based are not, inherently, bad. HOWEVER... action tends to include one thing - individual player control. To dodge enemy attacks, or perform QTE button mashing, or time your attacks to counter an enemy... all of this is done by controlling one character, not managing your party. If I can do something via taking direct control of a character (more action, single-character based) with a higher success rate than instead of giving a command to do the same action (more tactical, party based), then that is a system that favors the single-character based approach and hurts the party based one.

Since I view and enjoy DA as a series that places its combat focus on a party-based approach, where you can control all characters with equal levels of fidelity and a system where orders and tactics given to a character are on par in efficacy with taking direct control yourself, I would dislike if the series moved away from this style to instead use a style that designs the game to be controlled by one character the majority of the time in order to get the best results in combat instances. 

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 04 septembre 2013 - 03:18 .


#97
wildkeny

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dduane o wrote...

trafalgar law: I sincerely hope they take the dodge roll feature out. It defeats the purpose of DEX, CON and armor. Unless there are some limitations, I can easily play as a warrior, pump everything into STR and solo the game with ease.


Dark Souls has DEX CON and armor. Dark Souls also has dodge roll feature.

#98
Fast Jimmy

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wildkeny wrote...

dduane o wrote...

trafalgar law: I sincerely hope they take the dodge roll feature out. It defeats the purpose of DEX, CON and armor. Unless there are some limitations, I can easily play as a warrior, pump everything into STR and solo the game with ease.


Dark Souls has DEX CON and armor. Dark Souls also has dodge roll feature.


Dark Souls is also a game where you control one character. Just like The Witcher. Or God of War.

#99
Achire

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Bioware should just dump everything they have and copy the combat from Dragon's Dogma.

#100
Taleroth

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Bizarre question.

Skyrim doesn't have much in the way of dodge moves. But it does have manual aim. Those are rather distinct from how Dragon Age 3 is operating.