Wulfram wrote...
Stats don't make the game tactical, rather it's the lack of reliance on player skills other than tactics that do that.
To take the Chess analogy, imagine if you could only take enemy pieces if you beat your opponent in an arm wrestle. That would stop being a very tactical game, unless you had two very well matched arm wrestlers.
Fast Jimmy wrote...
EJ107 wrote...
Fast Jimmy wrote...
If I can give an order to attack an opponent, then the player's skill of being able to slice at the enemy like in a Wii game is an action-game mechanic. If, instead, my chance to hit is based off the character's stats and skills, that is a tactical-game mechanic. Controlling a party should be about managing your characters and their skills, not directly assuming control to allow player skill to determine the outcome. That's true if you have one character that you control in a party like ME or a game that only has one character throughout, like The Witcher or Dark Souls.
I still don't see how dice rolling to determine hit chances is tactical in and of itself. Positioning your characters right and creating impassable areas using the wall of frost are tactical, as is healing a low health ally or moving your characters out of harms way, be it by right clicking them to move or using an activated skill to make them dodge (which is what I think this roll ability is). Managing your resources, like antivan fire, health potions or non-regenerating hit points is tactical.
But I don't see how a guaranteed hit chance if you right click the enemy or use an attack ability is any more tactical than a randomised chance to hit the enemy based on character stats. Just because something is randomised based on stats doesn't make it particuarly tactical. In fact I'd argue that randomness is in direct contrast to tactics. Dodging with an activated ability is something I would consider more tactical than dodging based on a dexterity stat chance, which you have no direct control over.
Stats =/= tactics is what I'm trying to get at here. Chess is essentially a tactical game after all, and does not have stats or hit points.
Does making it so that if I slice my mouse across the screen in just the right fashion, my cursor follows and I am able to make a hit anymore tactical? Is timing it so that I if I swing my sword at the exact 1.26 seconds after the enemy goes through their scripted "alert move," identifying that they are going to be open to attack, more tactical?
Tactics are having a set of strategum and concepts that are used to overcome obstacles. An example could be tactics being used to have my tank to draw enemy attention while my ranged fighters pick off targets. A game grounded in party-based mechanics and tactics should reward this. If, however, my ability to aim an arrow is now player based, I can snipe an enemy from entirely across the screen with 100% accuracy... is that tactical? If my tank becomes worthless because I don't time my blocks correctly due to slow player reaction... is that tactical?
I'd say it isn't. I'd say it hinges the success of the individual action over the concept of the overall tactics employed. The skill of my character's ability to aim a bow should determine if they hit their target or not. The skill of me, as a player, to know how to use my characters in coordination to the best effect against certain types of enemies, should be the measure of skill in a tactical game.
Modifié par EJ107, 04 septembre 2013 - 05:32 .
Modifié par JWvonGoethe, 04 septembre 2013 - 05:31 .
Wulfram wrote...
Stats don't make the game tactical, rather it's the lack of reliance on player skills other than tactics that do that.
To take the Chess analogy, imagine if you could only take enemy pieces if you beat your opponent in an arm wrestle. That would stop being a very tactical game, unless you had two very well matched arm wrestlers.
You certainly can have a tactical game with no randomness. But it certainly seems like characters should have some way to avoid getting hit, even if you're engaged at close range, and without putting it down to the players reflexes rolling a dice is a sensible way of representing that.
Twisted Path wrote...
Not that party based
click-and-command games where ever even Bioware's bread and butter. The
Mass Effect games were certainly a form of action-RPG and I think Jade
Empire was too (I could be wrong, I hardly remember any of Jade
Empire.)
Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 septembre 2013 - 05:47 .
Allan Schumacher wrote...
Rawgrim wrote...
So if the tactical camera is back, there should be an auto attack toggle no? It kind of defeats the purpose if the player has to use "twitch combat" anyway?
It was hastily done and still needs work, but the tactical camera mode supported the "selected character" continuing to attack without further input, when the "engage" mode was activated (i.e. when time is progressing while in Tac Cam mode)
wildkeny wrote...
Fast Jimmy wrote...
wildkeny wrote...
dduane o wrote...
trafalgar law: I sincerely hope they take the dodge roll feature out. It defeats the purpose of DEX, CON and armor. Unless there are some limitations, I can easily play as a warrior, pump everything into STR and solo the game with ease.
Dark Souls has DEX CON and armor. Dark Souls also has dodge roll feature.
Dark Souls is also a game where you control one character. Just like The Witcher. Or God of War.
I have to agree that it is somehow weird to see dodge and row in DA. It would be acceptable if it is just some automatical animation according to your DEX then I shall be fine (like if you have 30 DEX, you got 30% chance to dodge and row the incoming attack)
EJ107 wrote...
Wulfram wrote...
Stats don't make the game tactical, rather it's the lack of reliance on player skills other than tactics that do that.
To take the Chess analogy, imagine if you could only take enemy pieces if you beat your opponent in an arm wrestle. That would stop being a very tactical game, unless you had two very well matched arm wrestlers.
You certainly can have a tactical game with no randomness. But it certainly seems like characters should have some way to avoid getting hit, even if you're engaged at close range, and without putting it down to the players reflexes rolling a dice is a sensible way of representing that.
It's not really a matter of reflexes though. Not when the game has a pause function.
Fast Jimmy wrote...
EJ107 wrote...
It's not really a matter of reflexes though. Not when the game has a pause function.
That's silly. The old NES version of Mario had a pause button, which left the screen exactly how it was during gameplay (no different pause screen). That didn't make it any less of an action-platformer game.
Modifié par EJ107, 04 septembre 2013 - 06:19 .
Kaiser of Hearts wrote...
What's an action rpg element?
Wulfram wrote...
Stats don't make the game tactical, rather it's the lack of reliance on player skills other than tactics that do that.
To
take the Chess analogy, imagine if you could only take enemy pieces if
you beat your opponent in an arm wrestle. That would stop being a very
tactical game, unless you had two very well matched arm wrestlers.
EJ107 wrote...
What I'm saying is that when you can pause combat and issue commands you don't have to be quick with your reflexes. All you have to do is push the spacebar, or whatever key/button pauses combat when you see any sign of danger and can issue dodge/attack/whatever commands at your leisure. It's not like true "twitch" based combat where you have a limited timeframe to issue the commands.
Modifié par MDCT506, 04 septembre 2013 - 06:29 .
MDCT506 wrote...
On the other hand, if you see a sign of danger near to your character, you could simply roll away from the source. How is it any more or less "twitch" to hit the key for roll/dodge than it is to hit pause in time to avoid getting stomped by a dragon once you know it's about to happen? You either hit the button in time or you don't.
Modifié par EJ107, 04 septembre 2013 - 06:34 .
Allan Schumacher wrote...
Rawgrim wrote...
So if the tactical camera is back, there should be an auto attack toggle no? It kind of defeats the purpose if the player has to use "twitch combat" anyway?
It was hastily done and still needs work, but the tactical camera mode supported the "selected character" continuing to attack without further input, when the "engage" mode was activated (i.e. when time is progressing while in Tac Cam mode)
force192 wrote...
Allan Schumacher wrote...
Rawgrim wrote...
So if the tactical camera is back, there should be an auto attack toggle no? It kind of defeats the purpose if the player has to use "twitch combat" anyway?
It was hastily done and still needs work, but the tactical camera mode supported the "selected character" continuing to attack without further input, when the "engage" mode was activated (i.e. when time is progressing while in Tac Cam mode)
So
does that mean that when we are in Over The Shoulder camera all the basic
attacks are manual (I/e needed to press the attack button everytime you want to
do basic attacks, like the console version of DA2 ) Where as if we are in the Tactical
Camera all the basic attacks will be auto attacks (I/e just select a target and
your character will keep attacking, Like DA:O) If that is the case
will this be for all platforms are just the consol versions? (like it was with
DA2)
Modifié par Wulfram, 04 septembre 2013 - 07:20 .
Darth Brotarian wrote...
wildkeny wrote...
Fast Jimmy wrote...
wildkeny wrote...
dduane o wrote...
trafalgar law: I sincerely hope they take the dodge roll feature out. It defeats the purpose of DEX, CON and armor. Unless there are some limitations, I can easily play as a warrior, pump everything into STR and solo the game with ease.
Dark Souls has DEX CON and armor. Dark Souls also has dodge roll feature.
Dark Souls is also a game where you control one character. Just like The Witcher. Or God of War.
I have to agree that it is somehow weird to see dodge and row in DA. It would be acceptable if it is just some automatical animation according to your DEX then I shall be fine (like if you have 30 DEX, you got 30% chance to dodge and row the incoming attack)
So basically a dodge roll can happen automatically and interupt you using another ability. Like, you'll be waiting for a chance to use a stunning attack, select it, and all of a sudden because the roll turned out fine with the RNG, your character does a backroll and your attack ends up cancelling and going back into cooldown?
Modifié par aphelion4, 04 septembre 2013 - 11:26 .
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