255 réponses à ce sujet

[Andraste_Reborn]

Oxmen might be a bit sexist, but it does describe the race and not just one gender. As an example Humanity was sometimes called the Race of Man, and humans Men.

Sure, but there's no reason to perpetuate outdated sexist concepts, like the idea that men are the default type of human.

[mikeymoonshine]

Am1_vf wrote...

mikeymoonshine wrote...
(...)

They are Qunari :/ and you are just messing with me now.

Only for the rest of thedas. If you called a oxman tal-vashot Quinari someone would probably feel offended, be it the Qunari, the Tal-Vashot or both.

Yes just like if you called someone jewish who doesn't want to be conisdered jewish but is jewish. 

If you don't wanna call them Qunari then call them Tal-vashoth because that is what they are but they are also qunari (technically) just like I am technically brithish weather I believe in human definitions for areas of land or not!

[Chala]

Am1_vf wrote...

mikeymoonshine wrote...
(...)

They are Qunari :/ and you are just messing with me now.

Only for the rest of thedas. If you called a oxman tal-vashot Quinari someone would probably feel offended, be it the Qunari, the Tal-Vashot or both.

Edit:

El_Chala_Legalizado wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

mikeymoonshine wrote...

AstusOz wrote...

Hawke: More Qunari!
Tallis: Tal-Vashoth!
Hawke: You know what I mean!
Context. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

Tallis is Qunari though she would view them as Tal-Vashoth and no longer Qunari and that is how a Tal-Vashoth would view himself or herself but Tal-Vashoth are still Qunari. 

Qunari is a name for the race of horned people but Qunari also describes the religion and anyone involved in Qunari culture. 

There is no reason to have a name for the Qunari Race because to all who are not Qunari the horned people are Qunari. 

nothing goes unnamed so there is no need for Kossith.

You're right! We shoud call everyone Thedosians and end with all this confusion. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie][smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

But the horned oxmen are not from Thedas [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/alien.png[/smilie]

... touché. You got me there.

We should call them "The Greys" after all, they are aliens... and grey

[ShiroDNX]

Han: Qunari would call them Vashoth if they abandoned, or likely Bas if born outside the Qun. Since they call all others born outside the Qun as just bas/basra.

Tal-Vashoth call themselves Tal-Vashoth as they find it less insulting than Vashoth... At least, from what I've read, anyway.

[General TSAR]

Andrastee wrote...

Sure, but there's no reason to perpetuate outdated sexist concepts, like the idea that men are the default type of human.

Oxmen has a better ring to it.

[The Elder King]

As far as I remember the Tal-Vashoth are those who directly oppose the Qun after they left it, while the Vashoth are those that left the Qun but don't go against it.

[Am1vf]

Andrastee wrote...

Oxmen might be a bit sexist, but it does describe the race and not just one gender. As an example Humanity was sometimes called the Race of Man, and humans Men.

Sure, but there's no reason to perpetuate outdated sexist concepts, like the idea that men are the default type of human.

Indeed. Females are the default type of human, just look at some lizards who can reproduce asexually (is this too off topic?). Edit: or mono-genderly or whatever...

mikeymoonshine wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

mikeymoonshine wrote...
(...)

They are Qunari :/ and you are just messing with me now.

Only for the rest of thedas. If you called a oxman tal-vashot Quinari someone would probably feel offended, be it the Qunari, the Tal-Vashot or both.

Yes just like if you called someone jewish who doesn't want to be conisdered jewish but is jewish. 

If you don't wanna call them Qunari then call them Tal-vashoth because that is what they are but they are also qunari (technically) just like I am technically brithish weather I believe in human definitions for areas of land or not!

But they can't be Tal-Vashot if they were never part of the Qun. They would be Bas like any other race.

Modifié par Am1_vf, 04 septembre 2013 - 05:15 .

[Wissenschaft]

Jaison1986 wrote...

I'm no master of lore, but I'm pretty sure it's the actual name of the Qunari race. The truth is that Qunari is the term used for any individual that follows the Qun, being Kossith, elf or human. But the name of the the founders of the Qun, these big grey horned guys, is Kossith.

 

Kossith isn't the name of the race of grey horned giants anymore than Qunari. Both Kossith and Qunari refer to a culture and the grey horned giants simply use their culture's name as their own identiny. This is similar to how Jewish is technically a religion but is use to name a group of people. 

A few people on the bioware forums have insisted on using Kossith to distinguish grey horned giants from followers of the Qun even though Kossith is not the name of the race. The race of gaints simply don't use a sepereate name for their race vs their culture/religion.

Its the same as someone of Jewish decent being refered to as a Jew or of jewish decent even if they don't practice Judaism. This apparently annoys some people who continue to misuse Kossith even though the writers themselves pointed out that its the wrong use of the word and that its never going to be used in game.

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 04 septembre 2013 - 05:16 .

[ShiroDNX]

HHH: Yeah, got that impression at first, too. Can't recall where, but another codex gave the impression that it was also created by the Tal-Vashoth for themselves. Rebelling so much in spite that they named themselves different from what Qunari named them.

[Am1vf]

ShiroDNX wrote...

HHH: Yeah, got that impression at first, too. Can't recall where, but another codex gave the impression that it was also created by the Tal-Vashoth for themselves. Rebelling so much in spite that they named themselves different from what Qunari named them.

I admire the one in the Wounded Coast for rejecting even the role of Tal-Vashot.

[Wissenschaft]

ShiroDNX wrote...

HHH: Yeah, got that impression at first, too. Can't recall where, but another codex gave the impression that it was also created by the Tal-Vashoth for themselves. Rebelling so much in spite that they named themselves different from what Qunari named them.

 

I believe Tal-vashoth means "True Grey ones" and implies violent attuitude that Vashoth does not. It could just be that Tal-vashoth or usually warrior and hence naturally more violent than others but said violence is a big reason the Qunari despise Tal-vashoth. 

Think of it like aciencet greek culture who viewed outsiders as unenlighted barbarians. No doubt the worst barbarians would be the violent and destructive cultures and the greeks would look down on them then most. 

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 04 septembre 2013 - 05:21 .

[ShiroDNX]

Am1: He's such a non-conformist that he won't conform with the non-conformists.

Yeah, I found him interesting, as well.

[Wissenschaft]

ShiroDNX wrote...

Am1: He's such a non-conformist that he won't conform with the non-conformists.

Yeah, I found him interesting, as well.

 

I believe that was more about him rejecting the banditry of the Tal-vashoth on the wounded coast then trying to be a non-conformist. He did not except his role in the Qun but he would lower himself to banditry because thats also the role the Qun views of the Tal-vashoth.

So for him it was more a matter of pride.

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 04 septembre 2013 - 05:25 .

[Wissenschaft]

Am1_vf wrote...

It is a term that appears only in the codex. Is how the culture of the oxmen were called before the Qun existed. In the present only the Qunari scholars know the word and no one uses it.

I use it sometimes to refer to the race instead of the religious group, to avoid misunderstandings like when the devs said the Qunari will be playable and lated they had to specify they were refering ti the race and not the followers of the Qun.

Edit: the only thing that is known to have annoyed one of the devs was when some people were criticizing others for using the term Qunari refering to the race (which is not wrong). Pretty much like the ones criticizing those who use kossith now.

 

Actually, the dev was critizing the use of Kossith because it will never be used by characters in game and therefore simply adds to needless confusion on the forums such as this topic.

[Han Shot First]

Andrastee wrote...

Oxmen might be a bit sexist, but it does describe the race and not just one gender. As an example Humanity was sometimes called the Race of Man, and humans Men.

Sure, but there's no reason to perpetuate outdated sexist concepts, like the idea that men are the default type of human.

Besides Oxmen having a better ring to it than Oxpeople, the term Oxpeople isn't exactly more flattering. After all whether you are using Oxmen or Oxpeople, the Qunari are being compared to beasts. Its a term used by the humans of Thedas, rather than by the Qunari themselves.

I also disagree that the terminology used in the games should reflect modern sensibities regarding political correctness. After all the setting for for Dragon Age is quasi-medieval. As such, there should be some racism and sexism. They were realities in the medieval era. Even in the modern world racism and sexism still exists, and will likely continue to exist until the day our species goes extinct. Human NPCs in the games should have all of our virtues and all of our vices, and not be idealized versions of ourselves.

Dealing characters being racist or sexist in a game can be tricky, but the way to go about it is not to have every NPC be a paragon of tolerance. Rather, when confronted with it the player character should be given the option to challenge preconceived notions and ignorance.

Oxmen, in my opinion, should stay. I wouldn't imagine that the medieval humans of Thedas would have politically correct terms for a race of people whose civilization is clashing with theirs.

[Am1vf]

Wissenschaft wrote...

ShiroDNX wrote...

Am1: He's such a non-conformist that he won't conform with the non-conformists.

Yeah, I found him interesting, as well.

 

I believe that was more about him rejecting the banditry of the Tal-vashoth on the wounded coast then trying to be a non-conformist. He did not except his role in the Qun but he would lower himself to banditry because thats also the role the Qun views of the Tal-vashoth.

So for him it was more a matter of pride.

The Tal-Vashot where conformists in a way, they accepted what the Qun said they were instead of trying to find out what they wanted to be. That's why he left them, and that's why he's great. 

[Gill Kaiser]

Wulfram wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote...

Modern Qunari do not have a term for their race for the same reason that nobody in Thedas has a name for their planet. As far as they are concerned, the world consists of people and things-that-aren't-people. All other distinctions are unimportant.

Of course.  No Qunari would say anything like "the elves are a lithe pointy eared people who excell at poverty".  That would be silly.

Well, no, they wouldn't. Sten used that as an example of a type of generalised description the Qunari wouldn't say.

[sandalisthemaker]

Morocco Mole wrote...

What annoying people like to call qunari because they think it somehow makes them look more knowledgeable.

Nice try.

OP, it is actually what the tall grey-skinned race with horns used to be called.  They no longer call themselves this because they have adopted the philosophy of the Qun, and no longer want their people to ever think of a time when they did not follow the Qun.  
The other races of Thedas so equate the grey horned people with their religion and philosophy that they tend to call kossith Qunari regardless of whether or not they actually follow the Qun. 

People on the forums use the term kossith when they specifically mean the grey horned race because Qunari actually describes anyone of any race that follows the Qun.  

[Wissenschaft]

Am1_vf wrote...

Wissenschaft wrote...

ShiroDNX wrote...

Am1: He's such a non-conformist that he won't conform with the non-conformists.

Yeah, I found him interesting, as well.

 

I believe that was more about him rejecting the banditry of the Tal-vashoth on the wounded coast then trying to be a non-conformist. He did not except his role in the Qun but he would lower himself to banditry because thats also the role the Qun views of the Tal-vashoth.

So for him it was more a matter of pride.

The Tal-Vashot where conformists in a way, they accepted what the Qun said they were instead of trying to find out what they wanted to be. That's why he left them, and that's why he's great. 

 

Thats a good way of putting it. The Tal-vashhoth were simply being bandits because thats what Qunari assumed any warrior not of the Qun anymore would be. So he was smart enough to release he could choose what role he wanted for himself.

[Am1vf]

Wissenschaft wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

It is a term that appears only in the codex. Is how the culture of the oxmen were called before the Qun existed. In the present only the Qunari scholars know the word and no one uses it.

I use it sometimes to refer to the race instead of the religious group, to avoid misunderstandings like when the devs said the Qunari will be playable and lated they had to specify they were refering ti the race and not the followers of the Qun.

Edit: the only thing that is known to have annoyed one of the devs was when some people were criticizing others for using the term Qunari refering to the race (which is not wrong). Pretty much like the ones criticizing those who use kossith now.

 

Actually, the dev was critizing the use of Kossith because it will never be used by characters in game and therefore simply adds to needless confusion on the forums such as this topic.

I thought that was about Gaider, there might be something else I don't know about.

My only issue with it has ever been when some fans school other fans on
the “proper” term (and, yes, this does happen) or when fans casually use
the word as if that should be meaningful to most— and then blame the
lore when it causes confusion.

[mikeymoonshine]

Am1_vf wrote...

Andrastee wrote...

Oxmen might be a bit sexist, but it does describe the race and not just one gender. As an example Humanity was sometimes called the Race of Man, and humans Men.

Sure, but there's no reason to perpetuate outdated sexist concepts, like the idea that men are the default type of human.

Indeed. Females are the default type of human, just look at some lizards who can reproduce asexually (is this too off topic?). Edit: or mono-genderly or whatever...

mikeymoonshine wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

mikeymoonshine wrote...
(...)

They are Qunari :/ and you are just messing with me now.

Only for the rest of thedas. If you called a oxman tal-vashot Quinari someone would probably feel offended, be it the Qunari, the Tal-Vashot or both.

Yes just like if you called someone jewish who doesn't want to be conisdered jewish but is jewish. 

If you don't wanna call them Qunari then call them Tal-vashoth because that is what they are but they are also qunari (technically) just like I am technically brithish weather I believe in human definitions for areas of land or not!

But they can't be Tal-Vashot if they were never part of the Qun. They would be Bas like any other race.

But they are still Qunari because all Horned people are Qunari! 

[Yuoaman]

I like using the term "kossith" when referring the grey-skinned race of the Dragon Age universe because until Bioware gives us an official species name it is our best option to include all members of the species, regardless of their religion or citizenship.

[Wissenschaft]

Am1_vf wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

No, it's what people use to call the horned species also known as Qunari specifically to refer to the species and not their philosophical alignment and to avoid misunderstandings because humans, elves, dwarfs, whatever can be Qunari too.

I'm pretty sure that every person who has played Dragon Age will get what you mean when you call them a qunari. Calling them kossith is needlessly pedantic and even annoys the writers. 

No we don't, if you say Qunari, without specifying it's the race and not the culture, I would think you are refereing to the followers of the Qun.

 

There is a such thing as context that distinguishes the meaning of a word. Such as when the Devs announced that Qunari was a playable race, there was no need to futher clarify they are taking about the horned giants because they are already talking about a seperate race. People are just being dense. 

Its similar to how people of jewish decent do not have a seperate name for their ethincity regardless of whether they still practice Judaism or not.

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 04 septembre 2013 - 05:39 .

[sandalisthemaker]

mikeymoonshine wrote...


But they are still Qunari because all Horned people are Qunari! 

Not true.
The Tal-Vashoth Kossith are not Qunari because they no longer follow the Qun.  They are free.

[Am1vf]

mikeymoonshine wrote...

Am1_vf wrote...

(...)

But they can't be Tal-Vashot if they were never part of the Qun. They would be Bas like any other race.

But they are still Qunari because all Horned people are Qunari! 

Sure, you can use that if you want (most of Thedas does), but some people want a term, even if it's inaccurate, to distiguish when they're refering to the race or the nation/culture/religion.

Modifié par Am1_vf, 04 septembre 2013 - 05:40 .