202 réponses à ce sujet

[sinosleep]

Wow. This thread has just filled to the brim with ignorance.

[anon_04111]

sinosleep wrote...

Wow. This thread has just filled to the brim with ignorance.

The internet makes everyone stupid.

[DeathCultArm]

LucidStrike wrote...

Mr. Gerbz wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

I just can't see rap as a true music form. It's like comparing porn to an acutal motion picture. You "spit" some line, pay a producer to make a beat...and...that's it. The process of a band making an album is a complete process. The producer doesn't just send you beats, it's a process. You have to depend on band members to make an equal contribution. The lyircs aren't as shallow and....I just can't respect it...but....that's just me.

No it's not just you. It's a lot of people, including me. Having been in bands myself (playing electric guitar 6 years), and still being active in the scene. We had some rappers come watch us practice, and they were very surprised at everything we needed (several guitars, drums, etc). All they needed was an amateurish beat-making program.

Music is sound that illicits an emotional response, in the most general sense. Rapping is as much a form of music as singing is, only less dependent on melody.

Your argument about rappers without instruments siunds vaguely like an analog-based producer criticizing a digital producer or a luddite pissed off about the advent of computers (not the BEST analogies, but meh). For some people, it's more about the finished product, the music itself, than the proces of making it. It also can take talent to compose a good song, even digitally, as the computer is itself an instrument. ALSO, what do you make of rock vocalists who don't play instruments? Same critique of them?

I've heard shallow rock lyrics, as well as deep ones. I've heard shallow rap lyrics, as well as deep ones. It happens. What's with the double standards?

It's more than about the fact that you play an instrument. I also play, as do a lot of people I know, and we're not defensive about it as you are.

Singing is stilling singing, not just rhying words, it takes actual talent. I've heard Lupe Fiasco, and Common, and crap like that, and it's boring. I can think of grindcore band with deeper lyrics. Rappers only show aggression and whatnot through lyrics, not the actual music. They can't make anything heavy without throwing in a few hundread obscentities. It's just the same 20 second beat over and over. And it you don't pertian to a certian demographic you can't understand rap. Rock transcends culutre, and region. Music evoke emotion, rap evokes....violence.

[Marlina]

LucidStrike wrote...

Don't be too "careful".

Some white people think it's good to be "color blind", but being color blind means pretending racism doesn't exist. Don't be color blind. Just kep in mind the different perspectives their are and how they come into play.

Also, walkin' on egg shells around people can be offensive. That sounds weird, but, actually, walkin' on egg shells makes people feel like you feel that being around them makes you uncomfortable or anxious. It also makes it seems like you're thoughts are so racist that you have to put a lot of extra effort into keep it inside.

Another thing about that. SOMETIMES (SOMEtimes), it's better to say things aloud that MAY be offensive, if you aren't sure. Sometimes, keeping such things to yourself can be a kind of defense mechanism and consequently protects youre prejudices from being critiqued and addressed.

This all applies to any privilege, from male privilege to heterosexual privilege.

By brush off, I mean writting off that person's concerns as absurd. You have to consider it from that person's perspective.

Also, oppression doesn't just take the form of Neo-****'s and lynch mobs. Don't think that the only time racism is an issue is when someone is in immediate physical danger. There are entire socio-political systems  for oppression, and they can be very subtle at times, especially to those who aren't targeted by them.

It all takes a lifetime.

...right, but what would you have me do in that situation then? And although (like I said) he probably had his reasons, it still wasn't my fault. How I was I supposed to know that he'd take offense? I did attempt to apologize, but he brushed me off. :<
I'm sure he's just a poor guy, and I'm just too blind to see what REALLY going on, but can you really blame me? :\\ At the very least, I think he should have considered MY position, instead of immediately pigeonholing me as a racist.

Wouldn't you consider it pretty absurd if, say, some random white dude came up to you and yelled "OH GOD, IT'S THE KKK!" while pointing at you? I don't think it's entirely unjustified for me to call it absurd. Or at least, it FELT absurd, knowing that I'm not really racist at all.

[sinosleep]

DeathCultArm wrote...

Singing is stilling singing, not just rhying words, it takes actual talent. I've heard Lupe Fiasco, and Common, and crap like that, and it's boring. I can think of grindcore band with deeper lyrics. Rappers only show aggression and whatnot through lyrics, not the actual music. They can't make anything heavy without throwing in a few hundread obscentities. It's just the same 20 second beat over and over. And it you don't pertian to a certian demographic you can't understand rap. Rock transcends culutre, and region. Music evoke emotion, rap evokes....violence.

I don't even know why I bothering to waste my time but here it goes if it's so easy go download

FL Studio along with Hypersonic and Misaralov Philharmonics

I'll be waiting for a beat that's listenable and 3 verses worth of lyrics.

Modifié par sinosleep, 19 janvier 2010 - 09:35 .

[LucidStrike]

DeathCultArm wrote...

I've heard Lupe Fiasco, and Common, and crap like that, and it's boring. Rappers only show aggression and whatnot through lyrics, not the actual music. They can't make anything heavy without throwing in a few hundread obscentities. It's just the same 20 second beat over and over. And it you don't pertian to a certian demographic you can't understand rap. Rock transcends culutre, and region. Music evoke emotion, rap evokes....violence.

Yeah, because Lupe Fiasco and Common are, without a doubt, the best rap has to offer. <_<

What demographic. I'm genuinely curious. What demographic, Death?

Why won't you just admit that the only 'rational' points of contention are with the a genre's form form and not the content?  Music is expression, and it can express anything the musician wants to express of the listener wants to percieve. Not all rap is about being violent and hedonist, just like not all black people are lookin' to rob you at gun point.

Meh. I'm done debating this with you, if you're gonna keep on this road. I'm not interested in any exercise of futility.

[TheDove]

Marlina wrote...

LucidStrike wrote...

Don't be too "careful".

Some white people think it's good to be "color blind", but being color blind means pretending racism doesn't exist. Don't be color blind. Just kep in mind the different perspectives their are and how they come into play.

Also, walkin' on egg shells around people can be offensive. That sounds weird, but, actually, walkin' on egg shells makes people feel like you feel that being around them makes you uncomfortable or anxious. It also makes it seems like you're thoughts are so racist that you have to put a lot of extra effort into keep it inside.

Another thing about that. SOMETIMES (SOMEtimes), it's better to say things aloud that MAY be offensive, if you aren't sure. Sometimes, keeping such things to yourself can be a kind of defense mechanism and consequently protects youre prejudices from being critiqued and addressed.

This all applies to any privilege, from male privilege to heterosexual privilege.

By brush off, I mean writting off that person's concerns as absurd. You have to consider it from that person's perspective.

Also, oppression doesn't just take the form of Neo-****'s and lynch mobs. Don't think that the only time racism is an issue is when someone is in immediate physical danger. There are entire socio-political systems  for oppression, and they can be very subtle at times, especially to those who aren't targeted by them.

It all takes a lifetime.

...right, but what would you have me do in that situation then? And although (like I said) he probably had his reasons, it still wasn't my fault. How I was I supposed to know that he'd take offense? I did attempt to apologize, but he brushed me off. :<
I'm sure he's just a poor guy, and I'm just too blind to see what REALLY going on, but can you really blame me? :\\\\ At the very least, I think he should have considered MY position, instead of immediately pigeonholing me as a racist.

Wouldn't you consider it pretty absurd if, say, some random white dude came up to you and yelled "OH GOD, IT'S THE KKK!" while pointing at you? I don't think it's entirely unjustified for me to call it absurd. Or at least, it FELT absurd, knowing that I'm not really racist at all.

omg, Marlina I didnt even recognize you! Its me, Dove, from the old forums? Remember? We had that thing where we talked in BOLD? Good times, right?

[DeathCultArm]

Why care what some random guy did?

[RoninOmega]

Marlina wrote...

LucidStrike wrote...

Don't be too "careful".

Some white people think it's good to be "color blind", but being color blind means pretending racism doesn't exist. Don't be color blind. Just kep in mind the different perspectives their are and how they come into play.

Also, walkin' on egg shells around people can be offensive. That sounds weird, but, actually, walkin' on egg shells makes people feel like you feel that being around them makes you uncomfortable or anxious. It also makes it seems like you're thoughts are so racist that you have to put a lot of extra effort into keep it inside.

Another thing about that. SOMETIMES (SOMEtimes), it's better to say things aloud that MAY be offensive, if you aren't sure. Sometimes, keeping such things to yourself can be a kind of defense mechanism and consequently protects youre prejudices from being critiqued and addressed.

This all applies to any privilege, from male privilege to heterosexual privilege.

By brush off, I mean writting off that person's concerns as absurd. You have to consider it from that person's perspective.

Also, oppression doesn't just take the form of Neo-****'s and lynch mobs. Don't think that the only time racism is an issue is when someone is in immediate physical danger. There are entire socio-political systems  for oppression, and they can be very subtle at times, especially to those who aren't targeted by them.

It all takes a lifetime.

...right, but what would you have me do in that situation then? And although (like I said) he probably had his reasons, it still wasn't my fault. How I was I supposed to know that he'd take offense? I did attempt to apologize, but he brushed me off. :<
I'm sure he's just a poor guy, and I'm just too blind to see what REALLY going on, but can you really blame me? :\\\\\\\\ At the very least, I think he should have considered MY position, instead of immediately pigeonholing me as a racist.

Wouldn't you consider it pretty absurd if, say, some random white dude came up to you and yelled "OH GOD, IT'S THE KKK!" while pointing at you? I don't think it's entirely unjustified for me to call it absurd. Or at least, it FELT absurd, knowing that I'm not really racist at all.

You know what?  If I had a dime for how much the terms "kkk" and "white supremacist" has been used in a bioware forum...

seriously, lol, is that a trend or something?  I once walked in a thread that got hi-jacked just because of someone's bad comparion of the kkk and cerberus...  walked back out...

Modifié par RoninOmega, 19 janvier 2010 - 09:38 .

[sinosleep]

LucidStrike wrote...Yeah, because Lupe Fiasco and Common are, without a doubt, the best rap has to offer. <_<

What demographic. I'm genuinely curious. What demographic, Death?

Why won't you just admit that the only 'rational' points of contention are with the a genre's form form and not the content?  Music is expression, and it can express anything the musician wants to express of the listener wants to percieve. Not all rap is about being violent and hedonist, just like not all black people are lookin' to rob you at gun point.

Meh. I'm done debating this with you, if you're gonna keep on this road. I'm not interested in any exercise of futility.

Forget that clown, he obviously has never listened to Lupe Fiasco and merely threw the name out there as a pathetic attempt at credibility. If he knew anything about him he would know that if there's on rapper out there who doesn't rap about violence it'd be him.

I mean, I can form really ignorant arguments as well

The average rap song actually requires enough lyrics to fill a sheet of paper, the average rock song is three or four sentences in between the same chorus repeated adnauseum. As such, you must be more intillgent to make rap music than rock music.

IGNORANCE FOR ALL!

Modifié par sinosleep, 19 janvier 2010 - 09:39 .

[DeathCultArm]

LucidStrike wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

I've heard Lupe Fiasco, and Common, and crap like that, and it's boring. Rappers only show aggression and whatnot through lyrics, not the actual music. They can't make anything heavy without throwing in a few hundread obscentities. It's just the same 20 second beat over and over. And it you don't pertian to a certian demographic you can't understand rap. Rock transcends culutre, and region. Music evoke emotion, rap evokes....violence.

Yeah, because Lupe Fiasco and Common are, without a doubt, the best rap has to offer. <_<

What demographic. I'm genuinely curious. What demographic, Death?

Why won't you just admit that the only 'rational' points of contention are with the a genre's form form and not the content?  Music is expression, and it can express anything the musician wants to express of the listener wants to percieve. Not all rap is about being violent and hedonist, just like not all black people are lookin' to rob you at gun point.

Meh. I'm done debating this with you, if you're gonna keep on this road. I'm not interested in any exercise of futility.

I didn't pretend to be an expert on rap. I don't know the" bes"t it has to offer. And rap usually applies to a lazy demogrpahic of people who like cool, beats and are awainting the next hip dance. And don't even care what lyrics are. If you listen to metal, chances are you know what the words are.

And every rap song, I ever heard...was always defensive or too...straight forward in lyircs. Nothing ever implied, it too blunt.

[TheDove]

DeathCultArm wrote...

LucidStrike wrote...

DeathCultArm wrote...

I've heard Lupe Fiasco, and Common, and crap like that, and it's boring. Rappers only show aggression and whatnot through lyrics, not the actual music. They can't make anything heavy without throwing in a few hundread obscentities. It's just the same 20 second beat over and over. And it you don't pertian to a certian demographic you can't understand rap. Rock transcends culutre, and region. Music evoke emotion, rap evokes....violence.

Yeah, because Lupe Fiasco and Common are, without a doubt, the best rap has to offer. <_<

What demographic. I'm genuinely curious. What demographic, Death?

Why won't you just admit that the only 'rational' points of contention are with the a genre's form form and not the content?  Music is expression, and it can express anything the musician wants to express of the listener wants to percieve. Not all rap is about being violent and hedonist, just like not all black people are lookin' to rob you at gun point.

Meh. I'm done debating this with you, if you're gonna keep on this road. I'm not interested in any exercise of futility.

I didn't pretend to be an expert on rap. I don't know the" bes"t it has to offer. And rap usually applies to a lazy demogrpahic of people who like cool, beats and are awainting the next hip dance. And don't even care what lyrics are. If you listen to metal, chances are you know what the words are.

And every rap song, I ever heard...was always defensive or too...straight forward in lyircs. Nothing ever implied, it too blunt.

Wrong. 

[sinosleep]

Why don't you throw a few more stereotypes out there DeathCultArm, it really helps your argument.

[DeathCultArm]

It's easy to bash someone when they're in the minority, isn't it?

[sinosleep]

No it's easy to bash an ignorant person who doesn't know what the hell he's talking about and likes to sling stereotypes all over the place.

[DeathCultArm]

Evidence? I don't base arguements on ignorance. And saying the same thing over and over doesn't make it true. And stereotypes become them for a reason.

Modifié par DeathCultArm, 19 janvier 2010 - 09:48 .

[RoninOmega]

sinosleep wrote...

Why don't you throw a few more stereotypes out there DeathCultArm, it really helps your argument.

whoa, I prefer rnb or anything else over rap anytime, but stereotyping results in loss of credibillty.  Plus, it only weakens resolves and it doesn't get through to the person, instead, you'll have a negative effect.

In short stereotyping's only good for jokes, leave it at that.

Modifié par RoninOmega, 19 janvier 2010 - 09:49 .

[LucidStrike]

Marlina wrote...

...right, but what would you have me do in that situation then? And although (like I said) he probably had his reasons, it still wasn't my fault. How I was I supposed to know that he'd take offense? I did attempt to apologize, but he brushed me off. :<
I'm sure he's just a poor guy, and I'm just too blind to see what REALLY going on, but can you really blame me? :\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ At the very least, I think he should have considered MY position, instead of immediately pigeonholing me as a racist.

Wouldn't you consider it pretty absurd if, say, some random white dude came up to you and yelled "OH GOD, IT'S THE KKK!" while pointing at you? I don't think it's entirely unjustified for me to call it absurd. Or at least, it FELT absurd, knowing that I'm not really racist at all.

Marlina, remember that I'm not attacking you. Also, consider that that person's issue probably wasn't specifically with you. It's a global issue that's biigger than both of you. You have to look at the big picture. You seem to be viewing it as just an insular, isolated confrontation between you and some unreasonably irritable individual.

Not everyone is going to accept your apologies, no matter how genuine. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't apologize when appropriate. Even when you can't do it all, do what you can, as they say.

When I say brushing things off is not the thing to do, I'm also considering perspective. When someone makes a comment on something from a perspective that isn't yours, consider that that person may see things that you can't. That's how perspective works. If a female says something is sexist or a queer individual says something is queerphobic, I'm going to consider it seriously, even if, from MY perspective, I can't see any sexism or queerphobia. Even if there claims weren't 'rational', I wouldn't be dismissive and disrespectful about it, just as I wouldn't dismiss someone who claims to have been sexually harrassed or assaulted.

Be careful about supposing that you aren't racist at all. Again, perspective. As much as I try to dismantle patriarchy within myself and beyond, I don't get to declare that I'm not patriarchal at all. That's for females to judge.

If you want, I'd like to link a good resource for this and a lot of other stuff.

Modifié par LucidStrike, 19 janvier 2010 - 09:56 .

[sinosleep]

DeathCultArm wrote...

Evidence? I don't base arguements on ignorance. And saying the same thing over and over doesn't make it true. And stereotypes become them for a reason.

I've heard Lupe Fiasco, and Common, and crap like that, and it's
boring. Rappers only show aggression and whatnot through lyrics, not
the actual music. They can't make anything heavy without throwing in a
few hundread obscentities. It's just the same 20 second beat over and
over. And it you don't pertian to a certian demographic you can't
understand rap. Rock transcends culutre, and region. Music evoke
emotion, rap evokes....violence.

In the same paragraph in which you invoke 2 conscience rappers, you say music evokes emotion, rape evokes violence. Clearly, you have NEVER listened to Lupe Fiasco or Common as such, this post positively REEKS of ignorance.

Although essentially I could do the same to everything you've posted in the last 2 pages.

[DeathCultArm]

No..I said THEY were borng.I've heard the cool...and it wasn't anything special. Like I said rappers can't make heavy music. Only more vulger lyircs. The beat is never hard, or angry. From what i've heard the better rappers all use the same boring loopy, piano. beats.

Modifié par DeathCultArm, 19 janvier 2010 - 09:57 .

[LucidStrike]

DeathCultArm wrote...

No..I said THEY were borng.I've heard the cool...and it wasn't anything special. Like I said rappers can't make heavy music. Only more vulger lyircs. The beat is never hard, or angry. From what i've heard the better rappers all use the same boring loopy, piano. beats.

*Clears throat* Ahem...Rage. Against. The. Machine.

Also, just because it bores you doesn't mean it's objectively bad. Your subjective values are your own. Don't dress them up as the "truth" of which all must partake, lest they be recognized for the violent heathens they are.

Modifié par LucidStrike, 19 janvier 2010 - 10:01 .

[RoninOmega]

DeathCultArm wrote...

No..I said THEY were borng. Like I said rappers can't make heavy music. Only more vulger lyircs. The beat is never hard, or angry. From what i've heard the better rappers all use the same boring loopy, piano. beats.

No offense, but the more mainstream rap actually is dependent on strong beatswhich is what everyones more attached to than the lyrics.  The lyrics are just there because people will just bounce them off if their offending as "oh it's just a song" thing.

Modifié par RoninOmega, 19 janvier 2010 - 09:59 .

[DeathCultArm]

No rapped evrey bring the entire package. I listend to eminem, liked the lyris and the beats, but he talked about having sex with his stepfather and random stupid things. Ilistened to early three six mafia, and they had prerty good beats, but then I listened to the actual lyrics and lost brains cells. The clipse used cleaver metaphors, but had poppy beats, and referenced cocaine in every other line.

And RATM is not rap...it hard rock.

Modifié par DeathCultArm, 19 janvier 2010 - 10:01 .

[sinosleep]

DeathCultArm wrote...

No..I said THEY were borng.I've heard the cool...and it wasn't anything special. Like I said rappers can't make heavy music. Only more vulger lyircs. The beat is never hard, or angry. From what i've heard the better rappers all use the same boring loopy, piano. beats.

Do you have reading comprehension issues? Whether they are boring or not is irrelevant. The point is you can't name to conscience rappers at the beggining of a paragraph (rappers that don't encourage violence, have uplifting/political/etc songs) and then make a blanket statement at the end that rap evokes violence.

Also you've made it ABDUNDANTLY clear that you jack nothing about beat making. Does beat making use loops? Yes. Are there tons of things you do other than loops? Yes, like altering beat patterns every verse, dropping sounds out, putting sounds in, all manner of things.

If you think it's so easy, and that it requires no talent than do what I told you. Download FL Studio, Miraslov Philharmonics, and Hypersonic and make me a servicible beat. Aterwards go ahead and write me lyrics to go with it.

[sinosleep]

I killed another man today
Shot him in the back cause he ran away
Then I blew up his hut with a hand grenade
Cut his wife throat as she put her hands to pray
Just five more dogs, then could get a soccer ball
That's what my commander says
How old? Well I'm like ten, eleven
Been fighting since I was like six or seven
Now I don't know much about where I'm from
But I know I strike fear everywhere I come
Government wants me dead so I wear my gun
I really want the rocket launcher but I'm still too young
This candy gives me courage to fear no one
To feel no pain and hear no tongue
So I hear no screams and shed no tear
If I'm in your dreams then your end is near

Little weapon, little weapon, little weapon
We're calling you, there's a war
But the guns are just too tall for you
We'll find you something small to use
Little weapon, little weapon, little weapon
We need now, pow

Now here comes the march of the boy brigade
A McCar parade of the toys he made
And in shimmer shades who looks half his age
About half the size of the flags they waved
And camouflage suits made to fit youths
Cause the ones off dead soldier fits a little loose
Find More lyrics at www.sweetslyrics.com
With AK-47 that they shooting into heaven
Like they trying to kill the Jetsons
Cute, smileless, heartless, violent
Childhood destroyed, avoided of all childish ways
Can't write their own names
Or read the words on their own graves
Think you gangsta popped a few rounds
These kids will come through and murder a whole town
And sit back and smoke and watch it burn down
The grave gets deeper the further we go down

Little weapon, little weapon, little weapon
We're calling you, there's a war
But the guns are just too tall for you
We'll find you something small to use
Little weapon, little weapon, little weapon
We need you now, pow


Yeah, Lupe Fiasco has no depth whatsoever, it's only a song about child soldiers. Those lyrics are all about dealing drugs, and getting rims, and the beat on that song is awful too!

Modifié par sinosleep, 19 janvier 2010 - 10:05 .