I rarely play spellcasters and even rarer get them to epic levels. Now I need some general outlook on their power compared to melee classes because I need to decide if I should give them some boost in my module or leave them as they are.
So... how do spellcasters at epic levels compare to melee classes? Are they capable of dealing as much damage? And is it just me or do many high-level monsters have magic immunity which further weakens spellcasters?
There are not nearly as many epic feats for spellcasters as there are for melee classes, that's the main reason I'm asking this. Only 6 epic spells and, what's more, taking feats' space? That's not how it works in paper D&D. That seems to be a huge disadvantage for mages to me, but what are your thoughts?
How do epic spellcasters compare to epic melee characters?
Débuté par
Grani
, sept. 04 2013 06:10
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#2
Posté 04 septembre 2013 - 07:19
Shadooow
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Yes the epic progression for casters isnt that much beneficial. Still higher caster level is often needed to penetrate SR which is by default 32maximum but a builder can modify 2da or use scripting to raise this value and force casters to take more levels in their class. Contrary to the DnD casters however gains great ability as a epic bonus feat which might give them enough reason to continue in their class on epic levels, epic spells are feats contrary to the DnD however there are missing other caster feats from SRD so it is actually balanced, expect the fact that only EMA and warding are useable on epic levels, but you can always modify other epic spells and improve them. For example, my unofficial patch gives extra feature for a hellball - when targetting self caster is not affected by damage nor knockdown which makes it actually quite a good choice especially for druid casters.
#3
Posté 04 septembre 2013 - 07:26
The Amethyst Dragon
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The feat route for epic spells does look like a big disadvantage to me, too. Sure, they can't be interrupted during casting like regular spells, but they're very limited use (1/day activations, even for a 40th level pure caster) and don't provided the option of scaling up with caster level or upgrading.
Epic melee classes, in my opinion, make out much better with more levels. Lots of combat-boosting feats, lots more feats (epic fighters, anyway), and no use limitations for those feats like Dev. Critical.
There are things that can be done to help epic casters. For my PW, I upped the uses/day of several of the epic spell feats, then later added a custom epic spellcasting system.
You could also alter the scripts to scale up damage based on caster level, or make upgraded versions that replace the starting ones (just like barbarian rage feats replace earlier granted ones), or you could just make it so the epic spell feats are granted automatically at certain class levels so that spellcasters don't have to sacrifice their limited number of epic feats on something they should be able to do anyway.
Epic melee classes, in my opinion, make out much better with more levels. Lots of combat-boosting feats, lots more feats (epic fighters, anyway), and no use limitations for those feats like Dev. Critical.
There are things that can be done to help epic casters. For my PW, I upped the uses/day of several of the epic spell feats, then later added a custom epic spellcasting system.
You could also alter the scripts to scale up damage based on caster level, or make upgraded versions that replace the starting ones (just like barbarian rage feats replace earlier granted ones), or you could just make it so the epic spell feats are granted automatically at certain class levels so that spellcasters don't have to sacrifice their limited number of epic feats on something they should be able to do anyway.
#4
Posté 04 septembre 2013 - 07:30
Grani
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Indeed, I think I will improve the epic spells by making their power somewhat scale with level (though I think about doing it in "jumps" instead of strengthening the spell at every level).
So, Hellball and Greater Ruin will have increasing damage, EMA increasing AC from dodge, summoning spells will have more powerful summons and Epic warding... hm. I think it's mostly good as it is, perhaps I'll just prolong it.
Good to know I'm not the only one under the impression that epic spellcasters are at a disadvantage, though.
So, Hellball and Greater Ruin will have increasing damage, EMA increasing AC from dodge, summoning spells will have more powerful summons and Epic warding... hm. I think it's mostly good as it is, perhaps I'll just prolong it.
Good to know I'm not the only one under the impression that epic spellcasters are at a disadvantage, though.
#5
Posté 04 septembre 2013 - 08:18
Grani
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PS: Found this, I think I'll use it!
http://nwvault.ign.c....detail&id=2896
Now, THAT'S what I'd call a Hellball!
http://nwvault.ign.c....detail&id=2896
Now, THAT'S what I'd call a Hellball!
#6
Posté 04 septembre 2013 - 08:19
Shadooow
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Epic warding is a problem. Its super powerful at any level. And if you made a DnD-like epic spellcasting system, and allow this spell to be cast more than once per day you might run into serious balance issues - thats the main reason I still kept the original feat-based system yet.Grani wrote...
Epic warding... hm. I think it's mostly good as it is, perhaps I'll just prolong it.
Also in DnD the number or epic spells is based on knowledge (arcana/divine/nature) skill and unless you make these new three skills you might find out its too easy to attain them especially for dual divine/arcane casters like cleric/wizard etc.
#7
Posté 04 septembre 2013 - 09:19
Grani
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Well, I'm not going to use any other system of epic spellcasting than Bioware's, so I just decided to make a simple change that could attract players to training an epic spellcaster.
Epic warding is powerful, indeed, but I'll just make it last a bit longer.
Epic warding is powerful, indeed, but I'll just make it last a bit longer.
#8
Posté 05 septembre 2013 - 12:42
MagicalMaster
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A *lot* of this depends on your equipment power and resting restrictions.
Casters can gain 15 more of their primary stat which is at least a modifier increase of 7 - which is quite a few extra spells. Let's say we have a sorc who started with 18 Cha and has 12 cha from gear.
At level 20, he has 35 Cha for a modifier of 12. This means he has the following spells:
1: 9
2: 9
3: 9
4: 9
5: 8
6: 8
7: 8
8: 8
9: 7
Total of 36 + 32 + 7 = 75 spells
At level 40, he has 50 Cha which is a modifier of 20 with...
1: 11
2: 11
3: 11
4: 11
5: 10
6: 10
7: 10
8: 10
9: 9
44 + 40 + 9 = 93 spells per day. So he gain 18 spells.
That said, saving throws increase faster than his DCs (epic levels alone give 10 saving throws and DC cannot increase by more than 10 (8 ability modifier bonus plus Epic Spell Focus) and that doesn't include better gear or spellcraft or feats).
All of this doesn't mean that mages (or casters in general) are weak yet - in a completely mundane setting, they'll still completely trounce a fighter. On the flip side, if everyone is running around with immunity to everything, 50 resistance to everything, improved evasion, and +20 longswords of doom, mages will be horrendously weak.
It really, really comes down to gear whether casters need love in the epic levels - because generally speaking, they're crazy overpowered at level 20 (though also gear dependent). One easier way to do this is to give lots of extra spell slots and/or make some of the higher level spells scale more.
Oh, and another benefit of level 40 is those round per level spells (like damage shields and haste) last a lot longer.
P.S. If you want a stronger Hellball (and other epic spells), drop me a line - I made some custom versions for a project that are far stronger (without being overpowered IMHO) and don't suffer from the stupidity of Hellball (hey look, I had up Energy Buffer and took 0 damage from Hellball).
Edit:
P.P.S. Epic Warding already absorbs 50 more HP per caster level. So a level 20 caster absorbs 1000 damage and a level 40 caster absorbs 2000 damage. It's extremely powerful by default. Could also modify it to increase both amount reduced per hit and total absorbed based on level (starting it off weaker because of those level 15 Pale Masters).
P.P.P.S. EMA is tricky - in many cases, mages have such low AC anyway that people don't bother pumping up their AC - leaving EMA for builds that are more spellswords (often PM builds or at least auto still spell ones). Simply increasing the dodge AC doesn't automatically make it actually useful.
Casters can gain 15 more of their primary stat which is at least a modifier increase of 7 - which is quite a few extra spells. Let's say we have a sorc who started with 18 Cha and has 12 cha from gear.
At level 20, he has 35 Cha for a modifier of 12. This means he has the following spells:
1: 9
2: 9
3: 9
4: 9
5: 8
6: 8
7: 8
8: 8
9: 7
Total of 36 + 32 + 7 = 75 spells
At level 40, he has 50 Cha which is a modifier of 20 with...
1: 11
2: 11
3: 11
4: 11
5: 10
6: 10
7: 10
8: 10
9: 9
44 + 40 + 9 = 93 spells per day. So he gain 18 spells.
That said, saving throws increase faster than his DCs (epic levels alone give 10 saving throws and DC cannot increase by more than 10 (8 ability modifier bonus plus Epic Spell Focus) and that doesn't include better gear or spellcraft or feats).
All of this doesn't mean that mages (or casters in general) are weak yet - in a completely mundane setting, they'll still completely trounce a fighter. On the flip side, if everyone is running around with immunity to everything, 50 resistance to everything, improved evasion, and +20 longswords of doom, mages will be horrendously weak.
It really, really comes down to gear whether casters need love in the epic levels - because generally speaking, they're crazy overpowered at level 20 (though also gear dependent). One easier way to do this is to give lots of extra spell slots and/or make some of the higher level spells scale more.
Oh, and another benefit of level 40 is those round per level spells (like damage shields and haste) last a lot longer.
P.S. If you want a stronger Hellball (and other epic spells), drop me a line - I made some custom versions for a project that are far stronger (without being overpowered IMHO) and don't suffer from the stupidity of Hellball (hey look, I had up Energy Buffer and took 0 damage from Hellball).
Edit:
P.P.S. Epic Warding already absorbs 50 more HP per caster level. So a level 20 caster absorbs 1000 damage and a level 40 caster absorbs 2000 damage. It's extremely powerful by default. Could also modify it to increase both amount reduced per hit and total absorbed based on level (starting it off weaker because of those level 15 Pale Masters).
P.P.P.S. EMA is tricky - in many cases, mages have such low AC anyway that people don't bother pumping up their AC - leaving EMA for builds that are more spellswords (often PM builds or at least auto still spell ones). Simply increasing the dodge AC doesn't automatically make it actually useful.
Modifié par MagicalMaster, 05 septembre 2013 - 12:47 .
#9
Posté 05 septembre 2013 - 01:00
HipMaestro
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Evaluating vanilla v1.69 circumstances here...
Though spellcasters do not have a vast choice of feats in epic levels, they still gain imposing DC & extra spells/day with all the Great Ability feats, wizards probably the most with all the bonus feat levels. Epic Warding is a versatile spell. Besides it's ability to deflect significant damage while getting pummeled spellcasting it will provide the ability for any of the polymorph forms using creature weapons to pierce up to enemy +20 DR, w/epic spells available while shifted (Tensor's included).
A level 40 wizard can erect damage shields that do in the neighborhood of 125-150 damage per hit against all flankers while they are casting their damage spells. So the epic levels just continue to bolster all graduated spells.
On the flip side, an epic great smiter can cause over 400 smite damage and 5x that much on crits as a WM scyther. IMO besides a one-hit kill smite, the DevCrit route has the greatest potential for kills per round (not damage amount specifically, however) in epic levels with a dual-kama wielding monk WM somewhere near the top of the list.
So, feat-wise, spellcasting is somewhat anemic but the epic levels themselves contribute to very long durations and indispellability. Lotsa demilichs and raks will give casters a headache.
But epic spellcasters appear to be the easiest overall category of classes to nerf as you have already pointed out. Just give all the creatures high SR and saves (or immunities, if you prefer) and casters are cut off at the ankles, which is often the case in high-magic environments.
Then there are those AAs and DevCrit archers to stir into the mix vs. epic spellcasters...
Though spellcasters do not have a vast choice of feats in epic levels, they still gain imposing DC & extra spells/day with all the Great Ability feats, wizards probably the most with all the bonus feat levels. Epic Warding is a versatile spell. Besides it's ability to deflect significant damage while getting pummeled spellcasting it will provide the ability for any of the polymorph forms using creature weapons to pierce up to enemy +20 DR, w/epic spells available while shifted (Tensor's included).
A level 40 wizard can erect damage shields that do in the neighborhood of 125-150 damage per hit against all flankers while they are casting their damage spells. So the epic levels just continue to bolster all graduated spells.
On the flip side, an epic great smiter can cause over 400 smite damage and 5x that much on crits as a WM scyther. IMO besides a one-hit kill smite, the DevCrit route has the greatest potential for kills per round (not damage amount specifically, however) in epic levels with a dual-kama wielding monk WM somewhere near the top of the list.
So, feat-wise, spellcasting is somewhat anemic but the epic levels themselves contribute to very long durations and indispellability. Lotsa demilichs and raks will give casters a headache.
But epic spellcasters appear to be the easiest overall category of classes to nerf as you have already pointed out. Just give all the creatures high SR and saves (or immunities, if you prefer) and casters are cut off at the ankles, which is often the case in high-magic environments.
Then there are those AAs and DevCrit archers to stir into the mix vs. epic spellcasters...
#10
Posté 05 septembre 2013 - 01:08
MagicalMaster
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HipMaestro wrote...
Though spellcasters do not have a vast choice of feats in epic levels, they still gain imposing DC & extra spells/day with all the Great Ability feats, wizards probably the most with all the bonus feat levels.
Wizards, sorcerers, and clerics all get a bonus feat every 3 levels in epic.
HipMaestro wrote...
A level 40 wizard can erect damage shields that do in the neighborhood of 125-150 damage per hit against all flankers while they are casting their damage spells. So the epic levels just continue to bolster all graduated spells.
IIRC, 81-86 damage for acid sheath and 41-46 damage for elemental shield (plus a few more points from Death Armor potentially). It is more than a bit ridiculous. Since they can also be effectively maintained indefinitely unless dispelled.
HipMaestro wrote...
On the flip side, an epic great smiter can cause over 400 smite damage and 5x that much on crits as a WM scyther.
It is limited to 3 shots a day, though.
HipMaestro wrote...
IMO besides a one-hit kill smite, the DevCrit route has the greatest potential for kills per round (not damage amount specifically, however) in epic levels with a dual-kama wielding monk WM somewhere near the top of the list.
Kukris or Scimitar/Rapier is far, far more Dev Crits (10-20 range versus 16-20).
#11
Posté 05 septembre 2013 - 02:44
HipMaestro
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Should have stated "total feats" for wizard, which allow that class to focus solely on Great INT and/or Epic Spells in epic levels once the spell focus and metamagic has been covered in pre-epic.MagicalMaster wrote...
HipMaestro wrote...
Though spellcasters do not have a vast choice of feats in epic levels, they still gain imposing DC & extra spells/day with all the Great Ability feats, wizards probably the most with all the bonus feat levels.
Wizards, sorcerers, and clerics all get a bonus feat every 3 levels in epic.
It depends somewhat on the opponent. The range itself needs to adjusted for APR. I did state "somewhere near the top of the list" not "at the top of the list".Kukris or Scimitar/Rapier is far, far more Dev Crits (10-20 range versus 16-20).IMO besides a one-hit kill smite, the DevCrit route has the greatest potential for kills per round (not damage amount specifically, however) in epic levels with a dual-kama wielding monk WM somewhere near the top of the list.
Kukrimaster is a close 2nd IMO. But a flurried, hasted monk kamamaster will hit those 16-20 at 10 APR hasted AND with the monk -3 AB mainhand progression while the kukrimaster 10-20 7 APR hasted -5 AB progression (main and off). The higher the AC of the opponent, the more effective the increased APR becomes since eventually you will only hit on 20's (you gotta hit before you can crit) and APR rules in those cases. So all those rolls at less than 20 mean nothing (i.e. 10-19). It depends on what you are trying to DevCrit... a pile of easy-to-hit kobolds or a high-AC boss.
Scimi/rapier in offhand reduces the progression even further to -9 AB each attack. Less hits against the same AC.
I seem to remember this same discussion on the legacy boards but it could be just deja vu.
Modifié par HipMaestro, 05 septembre 2013 - 02:54 .
#12
Posté 05 septembre 2013 - 04:33
MagicalMaster
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HipMaestro wrote...
Should have stated "total feats" for wizard, which allow that class to focus solely on Great INT and/or Epic Spells in epic levels once the spell focus and metamagic has been covered in pre-epic.
When do sorcerers or clerics take normal feats instead of Epic Feats?
HipMaestro wrote...
It depends somewhat on the opponent. The range itself needs to adjusted for APR. I did state "somewhere near the top of the list" not "at the top of the list".
...
Scimi/rapier in offhand reduces the progression even further to -9 AB each attack.
Monk has (best case): x/x-3/x-6/x-9/x-12/x-15/x/x-5/x+2/x-3
Non-monk has: x-2/x-7/x-12/x-17/x-2/x-7/x
Not sure why you're saying -9 AB each attack - the scimitar or rapier is only a -2 penalty compared to Kama or Kukri. I'm also guessing we're talking a build something like Fighter 12/WM 25/Monk 3? If you want, pick an AB and an AC and we'll see what the difference is between the builds.
Also, you can't crit on an auto 20 like you can hit - so if an attack roll needs a 20 to hit (by virtue of being auto hit) it can never crit.
#13
Posté 05 septembre 2013 - 10:25
Grani
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You've convinced me, I'll leave Epic Warding as it is after all!Also, your modifications of epic spells do sound interesting, MagicalMaster. I've implemented (a bit tweaked to my liking) Real Hellball and Real Greater Ruin by Farchilde and then modified the rest of the spells by myself, but I trust your sense of balance more. You've created these enemies for level 40 for me and they've been great! Thanks again.
Here are Farchilde's spells, by the way, if you'd want to take a look at them:
http://nwvault.ign.c....detail&id=2896
http://nwvault.ign.c...d=64590&id=2895
Here are Farchilde's spells, by the way, if you'd want to take a look at them:
http://nwvault.ign.c....detail&id=2896
http://nwvault.ign.c...d=64590&id=2895
#14
Posté 05 septembre 2013 - 05:50
MagicalMaster
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Just to give you an idea, my spells generally do the following and scale per level (I'd need to check the scripts for exact details and clean them up a bit, following figures are for a level 40 caster) - they also both do Positive Energy damage since that and Divine tend to be the least common resistances/immunities.
Greater Ruin
210 instant damage with a Fortitude Save for 1/2 damage (with the save DC set to 20 + Caster level I believe) plus an additional 44 damage per second for 18 seconds (1000ish damage total if you fail the save).
Hellball
210 instant damage in an AoE with a Reflex Save for 1/2 damage plus an additional 32 damage per 2 seconds for 18 seconds (500ish damage total if you fail the save).
Saving throw only affects the initial damage by default, iirc.
Neither will one shot you, but you should definitely feel it if you get hit by one (I personally feel that getting hit by one of these spells by a high level caster should make you feel like uttering words not allowed on this forum).
Greater Ruin
210 instant damage with a Fortitude Save for 1/2 damage (with the save DC set to 20 + Caster level I believe) plus an additional 44 damage per second for 18 seconds (1000ish damage total if you fail the save).
Hellball
210 instant damage in an AoE with a Reflex Save for 1/2 damage plus an additional 32 damage per 2 seconds for 18 seconds (500ish damage total if you fail the save).
Saving throw only affects the initial damage by default, iirc.
Neither will one shot you, but you should definitely feel it if you get hit by one (I personally feel that getting hit by one of these spells by a high level caster should make you feel like uttering words not allowed on this forum).
#15
Posté 05 septembre 2013 - 06:12
Grani
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Sounds good. I think I'll tweak them a little, but both spells seem good to me, especially the scaling part.
And a little offtopic: it is a bit ironic for a spell called HELLball to deal positive energy damage, isn't it?
And a little offtopic: it is a bit ironic for a spell called HELLball to deal positive energy damage, isn't it?
#16
Posté 05 septembre 2013 - 06:37
MagicalMaster
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I suppose that technically Hellball should deal Divine damage (if it's truly infernal energy from the Hells), but I figured that making both Greater Ruin and Hellball consistent with each other would be useful - especially since it means Divine resistance or immunity (for Hammer of the Gods/Flamestrike/etc) could be given without impacting either Epic Spell.
#17
Posté 05 septembre 2013 - 09:31
Shadooow
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Don't think and reason anything based on name or ILR physic, when there are open rules for this game (or actually the game NWN was based on): Hellball - http://www.d20srd.or...ls/hellball.htmMagicalMaster wrote...
I suppose that technically Hellball should deal Divine damage (if it's truly infernal energy from the Hells), but I figured that making both Greater Ruin and Hellball consistent with each other would be useful - especially since it means Divine resistance or immunity (for Hammer of the Gods/Flamestrike/etc) could be given without impacting either Epic Spell.
#18
Posté 05 septembre 2013 - 10:43
MagicalMaster
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ShaDoOoW wrote...
Don't think and reason anything based on name or ILR physic, when there are open rules for this game (or actually the game NWN was based on): Hellball - http://www.d20srd.or...ls/hellball.htm
You missed my point. I am *deliberately* changing it away from the Fire/Acid/Sonic/Electric damage. My whole goal is to NOT use those damage types. The average Hellball damage per element is 35 on a failed save. Energy Buffer will thus result in 0 damage from Hellball most of the time. A potion or wand of Protection from Elements will result in 5 damage per element, or 20 damage total. Some people even add in Cold damage to Hellball just so it includes every "element" but that suffers from the exact same problem.
Hardly some devastating epic spell with a level 3 spell can reduce its damage to 20 on a failed save. Not even factoring in damage immunity or resistance on gear.
#19
Posté 05 septembre 2013 - 10:55
Shadooow
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Yes i know about this problem, but the problem isn't in hellball but in the Bioware implementation of the elementar protection spells which doesn't match the PnP.MagicalMaster wrote...
ShaDoOoW wrote...
Don't think and reason anything based on name or ILR physic, when there are open rules for this game (or actually the game NWN was based on): Hellball - http://www.d20srd.or...ls/hellball.htm
You missed my point. I am *deliberately* changing it away from the Fire/Acid/Sonic/Electric damage. My whole goal is to NOT use those damage types. The average Hellball damage per element is 35 on a failed save. Energy Buffer will thus result in 0 damage from Hellball most of the time. A potion or wand of Protection from Elements will result in 5 damage per element, or 20 damage total. Some people even add in Cold damage to Hellball just so it includes every "element" but that suffers from the exact same problem.
Hardly some devastating epic spell with a level 3 spell can reduce its damage to 20 on a failed save. Not even factoring in damage immunity or resistance on gear.
Anyway, I only reacted because you used the magic formula that is abused by HCRP builders "it should do this because name suggest it / it should do this because in ILR it works this way" so I considered important to remind that these things aren't made up but given by the Dungeons and Dragons rules.
If you know about it, and you considered that the intented way doesn't suit your environment, then its none of my bussiness, just don't hide it under ficticious reasoning.
Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 05 septembre 2013 - 10:55 .
#20
Posté 05 septembre 2013 - 11:13
MagicalMaster
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ShaDoOoW wrote...
Anyway, I only reacted because you used the magic formula that is abused by HCRP builders "it should do this because name suggest it / it should do this because in ILR it works this way" so I considered important to remind that these things aren't made up but given by the Dungeons and Dragons rules.
If you know about it, and you considered that the intented way doesn't suit your environment, then its none of my bussiness, just don't hide it under ficticious reasoning.
I only brought it up because Grani said
"And a little offtopic: it is a bit ironic for a spell called HELLball to deal positive energy damage, isn't it? :D"
hence why I mentioned that you could argue that it should be divine instead of positive - but then I explained why I went with positive due to other game mechanics.
#21
Posté 06 septembre 2013 - 10:48
Grani
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MagicalMaster wrote...
I only brought it up because Grani said
"And a little offtopic: it is a bit ironic for a spell called HELLball to deal positive energy damage, isn't it? :D"
hence why I mentioned that you could argue that it should be divine instead of positive - but then I explained why I went with positive due to other game mechanics.
And what I said was just a joke, so there's no point in arguing over it, guys.
I didn't mean to say that Hellball couldn't deal positive damage or that it had to deal damage that is suggested by its name.Anyway, I'd be glad to see your scripts for Hellball and GR, MagicalMaster.
Modifié par Grani, 06 septembre 2013 - 10:48 .
#22
Posté 07 septembre 2013 - 05:24
MagicalMaster
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I've uploaded an erf with the scripts to the vault but it will need approval. I'll link to it when it's good to go.
I *think* I ironed out all the bugs (added a new feature or two) - but please let me know if you find an issue.
I *think* I ironed out all the bugs (added a new feature or two) - but please let me know if you find an issue.
#23
Posté 07 septembre 2013 - 06:12
MagicalMaster
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#25
Posté 14 septembre 2013 - 09:04
_Guile
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It's entirely subjective to the module you are playing in, if you are talking the Original Campaign, spell casters are more or less godly, if you started talking about online multiplayer modules or offline single player modules you downloaded, then it's highly subjective to the module design. Obviously when you leave the realm of +5 Weapons, +5 AC, and other powerful properties on items, then things tend to get a bit unbalanced. In low magic item worlds magic users can be very powerful, if spells have not been modified (which in many instances they are)...
