141 réponses à ce sujet

[lv12medic]

You can play a character that follows the Qun only if DA:I has an Action setting that picks all your conversation options for you...

Sorry, just felt the unnecessary need to join in on the ME3 references.

Modifié par lv12medic, 05 septembre 2013 - 01:47 .

[Plaintiff]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

I suspect that Bioware hasn't even fleshed out the Qun well enough among themselves to be clear on what following it actually entails.

There's a thread by Mary Kirby where she fleshes it out a lot. I can try to dig it up if you want. (I'd just link directly, but the bookmark's on my previous laptop.)

It'd be interesting to see, but I wouldn't want to put anyone else to the trouble of finding it.

[kinderschlager]

 being a sarcastic quanari? reward enough, i'll take it as is, thank you bioware, i foreesee some very amusing party banter aroun my PC now

[jones0901]

it would be interesting, and ive not read this whole thread, but I thought the Qun was rigidly hierarchical and demanded absolute obedience- it would stand to reason that if you followed the qun, you would necessarily submit to the Qun and have no agency. Im sure there are ways around that though.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

jones0901 wrote...

it would be interesting, and ive not read this whole thread, but I thought the Qun was rigidly hierarchical and demanded absolute obedience- it would stand to reason that if you followed the qun, you would necessarily submit to the Qun and have no agency. Im sure there are ways around that though.

Probably, but they're a lot of work. And they'd have to come up with a pretty credible reason for Vivienne to follow you if she was needed. And they'd need to program a lot of new reactions to you in in order for it to feel even remotely right.

[MDCT506]

lv12medic wrote...

You can play a character that follows the Qun only if DA:I has an Action setting that picks all your conversation options for you...

Sorry, just felt the unnecessary need to join in on the ME3 references.

I agree, from what we've seen, the Qun doesn't seem to be big on flexibile decision making and personal intiative.  I would go a step farther and say that you wouldn't even be able to make decisions about where to go and what to do.  A village of innocent people is being burned and your keep is under siege.  The Qun likely gives you precisely one choice and I'll bet it doesn't include rescuing a bunch of filthy heathen Thedosians. 

In other words, it would become an on-rails third person hack'n slash with tactical and RPG elements.  That actually sounds kinda fun to me, but it's not what I want to find in a game where every other character type I might take can do so much more. 

Modifié par MDCT506, 05 septembre 2013 - 03:38 .

[ImperatorMortis]

Edit: nvm was posted

Modifié par ImperatorMortis, 05 septembre 2013 - 02:54 .

[duckley]

Does this mean I will need to muzzle my Mage companion?

[DarthSliver]

I think Qunari and the Qun need to learn to accept Mages, its my understanding they lost the first invasion because of Mages. Could that actually be why they dont like Mages?

Id be more ok with the Qun alot more if they allowed mages and free will. Qun just needs a little more reformation going and they would be ok to support and not just respect individuals in the Qun.

[The Qun & the Damned]

I'd rather not. Both Chantries are bad enough.

[Cigne]

sandalisthemaker wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

I hope OP picks mages so he can chain himself up and never be allowed to do anything.

Perfect way for Bioware to troll Qunari lovers:

Allow for the option to be a follower of the Qun as a background, the only catch is that you must be a mage.
Anyone foolish enough to pick that option will, after lovingly spending 20 minutes to an hour meticulously crafting their character's face, be treated to nothing more than a 10 second long cutscene of their character shackled and in misery, controlled by a rod with their mouth sewn shut, and blind behind a face mask.  After that, a Critical Mission Failure ala Mass Effect flashes on screen before having you try again to pick a more sensible option.

Better yet, expand the waters you're trolling:
Have the mage escape the control rod, and you have the return of the silent protagonist. Or a fem/dwarf with a silent sister background...

Okay, I'll shut up now.

[omnitremere]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

They wouldn't have to redo anything or change anything storywise.

I think you're understating this point....

Again I'm not asking for the gameworld to react ot my choice of following the Qun. And I'm not asking for other people's ability to roleplay qunari the same ways as elves and dwarves to be taken away. What I'm asking for is the ADDITION of us having the ability IF WE CHOOSE to do so to follow the Qun. That is strictly about adding in dialogue. No cutscenes, no story changes, no additional actions. Strictly dialogue and VO work. Which is definitely work and money in and of itself. But it's not on the scale of what you're talking about.

Can you create a hypothetical example for how this would work.... You're saying that you want a game where you can speak as though you support the Qun, but not have it alter people's reactions or have any sort of difference in the actual campaign.

What I have imagined in my head, based on your criteria, is a game experience that doesn't really make any sense.

Okay let's do an example based on the judgement concept art with the female Qunari.  Mages are brought befeore a dwarf to be sentenced.  The executioner asks what is to be done with them.  The dwarf says he wants them executed because mages are dangerous and shouldn't be allowed to freely walk among other people.  Some people in your keep/party agree and some people don't.  

Mages are brought before a Qunari to be setenced.  The executioner asks what is to be done with them.  The Qunari says the Qun demands that they be executed.  Some people in your keep/party agree with your decision and some don't.  

See what I'm saying is the only thing people need to react to is the decision itself.  I'm not asking devs to create a game where people react specifically because you follow the Qun. Just like they may not react to you worshipping the stone.  And I don't understand why people feel like this doesn't work.  Because both games and I assume DAI definitely allow for you to follow the maker and run around slaughtering mages because you believe they're meant to serve man.  And DAO allowed for you to at least keep some sense of history and culture when playing a Dwarf or Elf.  So why is it ridiculous to say you should be allowed to at least on some level try to follow the Qun as a Qunari?

Thanks for dropping in Allan.  

[omnitremere]

Malanek999 wrote...

I'm not so sure about this. The Qun is still something that is presented to be somewhat mysterious and difficult to understand...at least I find it so. Having the option to play as if you follow it, means that the player would have to be given enough information to understand it. I don't think that is a good direction to take. We are still learning about it and the philosophy in the game.

And regardless, if you are going to be taking control of a sizable portion of Thedas, wouldn't the massive presence of the Qun be a huge change in story direction? To me it sounds like importing for future games would be as divergent as Synthesis would be in Mass Effect.

What's the point of allowing us to play Qunari if you don't flesh out the Qun? That's basically their whole culture.  The Tal-Vashoth have no culture of their own.  So a Qunari without the Qun is thusfar an empty shell.  Maybe they change that before DAI but I doubt they give the Tal-Vashoth an entire backstory and culture in the hour or so before you start playing as one.

I'm not asking to be able to spread the Qun.  Playing as a member of the dalish didn't cause their culture to spread among other elves.  Playing as a dwarf in DAO didn't cause more people to worship the stone.  This is about my character and my character alone whose position of power in the world might drop significantly once the veil tears are closed.  I don't see how this affects importing.  

[omnitremere]

MDCT506 wrote...

lv12medic wrote...

You can play a character that follows the Qun only if DA:I has an Action setting that picks all your conversation options for you...

Sorry, just felt the unnecessary need to join in on the ME3 references.

I agree, from what we've seen, the Qun doesn't seem to be big on flexibile decision making and personal intiative.  I would go a step farther and say that you wouldn't even be able to make decisions about where to go and what to do.  A village of innocent people is being burned and your keep is under siege.  The Qun likely gives you precisely one choice and I'll bet it doesn't include rescuing a bunch of filthy heathen Thedosians. 

In other words, it would become an on-rails third person hack'n slash with tactical and RPG elements.  That actually sounds kinda fun to me, but it's not what I want to find in a game where every other character type I might take can do so much more. 

People keep saying that you wouldn't be able to make decisions but I don't see where the logic comes from.  In DA2 the Arishok made a decision on his own to convert the entire city to the Qun.  In the beginning he made it clear that, that was NOT his role and he didn't feel the right to do so.  But over time he made a judgement call and on his own decided to make that his role because of his situation.  That says there is some level of flexibility at least among the leadership to make their own decisions about how to follow the Qun.

And as far as mercy the only reason the Qunari army pulled back from the first war was because the Rivaini people were being slaughtered.  All of them hadn't been converted yet.  Which tells me there is a capacity for mercy even for Bas within the Qun.  But of course about that I could be wrong.

[esper]

I012345 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

They wouldn't have to redo anything or change anything storywise.

I think you're understating this point....

Again I'm not asking for the gameworld to react ot my choice of following the Qun. And I'm not asking for other people's ability to roleplay qunari the same ways as elves and dwarves to be taken away. What I'm asking for is the ADDITION of us having the ability IF WE CHOOSE to do so to follow the Qun. That is strictly about adding in dialogue. No cutscenes, no story changes, no additional actions. Strictly dialogue and VO work. Which is definitely work and money in and of itself. But it's not on the scale of what you're talking about.

Can you create a hypothetical example for how this would work.... You're saying that you want a game where you can speak as though you support the Qun, but not have it alter people's reactions or have any sort of difference in the actual campaign.

What I have imagined in my head, based on your criteria, is a game experience that doesn't really make any sense.

Okay let's do an example based on the judgement concept art with the female Qunari.  Mages are brought befeore a dwarf to be sentenced.  The executioner asks what is to be done with them.  The dwarf says he wants them executed because mages are dangerous and shouldn't be allowed to freely walk among other people.  Some people in your keep/party agree and some people don't.  

Mages are brought before a Qunari to be setenced.  The executioner asks what is to be done with them.  The Qunari says the Qun demands that they be executed.  Some people in your keep/party agree with your decision and some don't.  

See what I'm saying is the only thing people need to react to is the decision itself.  I'm not asking devs to create a game where people react specifically because you follow the Qun. Just like they may not react to you worshipping the stone.  And I don't understand why people feel like this doesn't work.  Because both games and I assume DAI definitely allow for you to follow the maker and run around slaughtering mages because you believe they're meant to serve man.  And DAO allowed for you to at least keep some sense of history and culture when playing a Dwarf or Elf.  So why is it ridiculous to say you should be allowed to at least on some level try to follow the Qun as a Qunari?

Thanks for dropping in Allan.  

Expect since you are not their avarard (was that how it was spelled?) and does not have their control rod, you then have to kill everyone (including your team) because they might have spoken to them, and gotten them possessed by demon. If we has to go with what the Sarabass keeper said to Hawke if you transfer Ketojan over willingly.

Anyway we have not been promised a Qunari (religion) we have been promised Qunari (race), my guess is that we are likely Tal-Vashot or a child of a Tal-vashot pair. It is much more easier to give us the options to follow the Tal-Vashots code of behaviour (since that is basically violent mecernary) than a Qun-followers.

[Estelindis]

I don't think that it makes a lot of sense for a strict follower of the Qun to be carrying out the work of the Inquisition. On the other hand, if, as we understand, the Inquisitor is the only survivor of some kind of magical disaster and can end up leading the Inquisition even if they are personally opposed to the Chantry, simply because of their sole survivor status, maybe it's not completely impossible.

I tend to think that the OP would be more satisfied by another (albeit later in the future) game in which Bioware would create a story explicitly focused on a protagonist truly devoted to the Qun.

[Navasha]

I012345 wrote...

What's the point of allowing us to play Qunari if you don't flesh out the Qun? That's basically their whole culture.  The Tal-Vashoth have no culture of their own.  So a Qunari without the Qun is thusfar an empty shell.  Maybe they change that before DAI but I doubt they give the Tal-Vashoth an entire backstory and culture in the hour or so before you start playing as one.

I'm not asking to be able to spread the Qun.  Playing as a member of the dalish didn't cause their culture to spread among other elves.  Playing as a dwarf in DAO didn't cause more people to worship the stone.  This is about my character and my character alone whose position of power in the world might drop significantly once the veil tears are closed.  I don't see how this affects importing.  

That is kind of the point though.   A Tal-Vashoth is now an individual, a person with their own desires and the freedom to choose their own direction.   They aren't an empty shell, they are finally free to have their OWN life and fill it how they want.   

It is the Qun followers who really are the empty shells, the robotic fanatical adherence to the Qun.    For a "true" believer of the Qun there is no self.   They are just the extension of the Qun.   

For it to be done right, the game would have to be altered dramatically.   You can't just go around vocalizing that you are for the Qun and your decisions are in adherence to the Qun and not have people respond much differently.  

I think it would be interesting though for them to add a line of dialog like that for the Qunari, so that people could see the reprecussions.    Everytime you mention the Qun as a factor in your decision, everyone of your Companions drop 20 points of approval.   Mentioning the Qun during negotiations with other factions always grants an immediate failure.    and of course, as your reputation as an actual Qunari spread across the land, the inquisition quickly becomes feared and hated by everyone you meet.   Your troops and agents desert you at every opportunity.    When you arrive at a new city, you find the gates shut and their guards and armies attack you on sight.    Being an actual Qunari follower who vocalizes themselves as such would find no one to left willing to follow their lead and soon find themselves an outlaw in a land banded against them.  

As such the main quest would likely be unachievable at this point, but you could play as long as you could survive the endless hordes of all the factions continuously attack you.

If you want to roleplay a Qunari follower, you should do it as a 'silent' infiltrator.   Make your decisions based on what you believe the Qun would want, but honestly, mentioning the Qun in dialog to others would be a recipe for disaster.

[omnitremere]

esper wrote...

I012345 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

They wouldn't have to redo anything or change anything storywise.

I think you're understating this point....

Again I'm not asking for the gameworld to react ot my choice of following the Qun. And I'm not asking for other people's ability to roleplay qunari the same ways as elves and dwarves to be taken away. What I'm asking for is the ADDITION of us having the ability IF WE CHOOSE to do so to follow the Qun. That is strictly about adding in dialogue. No cutscenes, no story changes, no additional actions. Strictly dialogue and VO work. Which is definitely work and money in and of itself. But it's not on the scale of what you're talking about.

Can you create a hypothetical example for how this would work.... You're saying that you want a game where you can speak as though you support the Qun, but not have it alter people's reactions or have any sort of difference in the actual campaign.

What I have imagined in my head, based on your criteria, is a game experience that doesn't really make any sense.

Okay let's do an example based on the judgement concept art with the female Qunari.  Mages are brought befeore a dwarf to be sentenced.  The executioner asks what is to be done with them.  The dwarf says he wants them executed because mages are dangerous and shouldn't be allowed to freely walk among other people.  Some people in your keep/party agree and some people don't.  

Mages are brought before a Qunari to be setenced.  The executioner asks what is to be done with them.  The Qunari says the Qun demands that they be executed.  Some people in your keep/party agree with your decision and some don't.  

See what I'm saying is the only thing people need to react to is the decision itself.  I'm not asking devs to create a game where people react specifically because you follow the Qun. Just like they may not react to you worshipping the stone.  And I don't understand why people feel like this doesn't work.  Because both games and I assume DAI definitely allow for you to follow the maker and run around slaughtering mages because you believe they're meant to serve man.  And DAO allowed for you to at least keep some sense of history and culture when playing a Dwarf or Elf.  So why is it ridiculous to say you should be allowed to at least on some level try to follow the Qun as a Qunari?

Thanks for dropping in Allan.  

Expect since you are not their avarard (was that how it was spelled?) and does not have their control rod, you then have to kill everyone (including your team) because they might have spoken to them, and gotten them possessed by demon. If we has to go with what the Sarabass keeper said to Hawke if you transfer Ketojan over willingly.

Anyway we have not been promised a Qunari (religion) we have been promised Qunari (race), my guess is that we are likely Tal-Vashot or a child of a Tal-vashot pair. It is much more easier to give us the options to follow the Tal-Vashots code of behaviour (since that is basically violent mecernary) than a Qun-followers.

I'm sorry but it's the opposite.  The specific role of the Arvaarad is to leash mages and kill Tal-Vashoth.  Nobody else has that role.  So as long as I'm not an Arvaarad that's not a role I would be expected to fulfill.  Otherwise why doesn't the Arishok strike you down immediately upon meeting you? Or why don't the remaining Qunari kill you after you've killed the Arishok and it's obvious you have magic powers? Instead in Act 3 a member of the Qunari approaches you for help regardless of what class you are.  

I think it's obvious the devs will force us to be Tal-Vashoth but the question is, is that right.  And it seems that from a culture standpoint it obviously makes Qunari a weaker choice.  No matter what version of drawf, elf or human you pick there's a thousand years of history and culture that you bring with you.  In DAO you could tell party members about how you adjusted to being on the surface or how your people don't bury their dead but instead place them in the stone.  Or about how you had to adjust to racism in the alienage.  Or about your clan spending decades trying to reclaim their lost history.  What history and culture do the Qunari have that doesn't come from the Qun?

[MisterMonkeyBanana]

I doubt we can follow the Qun itself, but I wouldn't mind if the game allowed a Qunari PC to express a positive opinion towards the faith/way of life, even if they themselves are no longer followers.

[Chashan]

Plantiff wrote...

I suspect that Bioware hasn't even fleshed out the Qun well enough among
themselves to be clear on what following it actually entails.

Something all too likely true.

With that said, making adjustments to accomodate one or two instances where Qunari players - or, shock and horror, PCs of other ethnicity who humour the Qun - may lean toward means other than crucifying qunari adherents doesn't seem that big a deal to me that some make of it. It's not like the party not constantly sniffing at the PC's practice of blood magic was a deal-breaker in the past, was it.

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

There are women in the Qun who fight as Tallis proves.

Tallis is also a member of the Ben-Hassrath, the qunari's secret police. They are not part of the army.

And their purpose direct from the wiki is "protecting the faith and the innocents."  And "Ben-Hassrath primarily act as enforcers of religious law in the Qunari society who are responsible for policing the populace and "re-educating" both the Qunari who do not follow the established norms and new converts.  They also act as spies and assassins for the Qunari as well as perform other clandestine missions."

I'm seeing nothing here that forbids a Qunari Inquisitor.  Preventing the world from exploding seems a good way to protect the faith and Qunari interests.  

A very good point. If the Qun weren't flexible, it would already have been driven off from Thedas. We also have to keep in mind that most every scrap of text so-far provided is from a Chant-POV, thus inherently biased. The fact that an oxman/-woman is apparently put into that position alone is likely already a shock to the Chant public at large. Without knowing yet how BW wish to implement this, what's to say against that being a calculated stunt by the Qun? An oxman stopping the greatest threat in recent Thedosian history would indeed improve the Qun's reputation with the bas, possibly making them more inclined to conversion.

BW got an opportunity here to do away with the rather bipolar perception so far provided, without necessarily dismissing that attitude (we got the whole mage freedom vs magic regulation brawl, after all, right). I hope they take it.

Modifié par Chashan, 05 septembre 2013 - 03:55 .

[omnitremere]

Navasha wrote...

I012345 wrote...

What's the point of allowing us to play Qunari if you don't flesh out the Qun? That's basically their whole culture.  The Tal-Vashoth have no culture of their own.  So a Qunari without the Qun is thusfar an empty shell.  Maybe they change that before DAI but I doubt they give the Tal-Vashoth an entire backstory and culture in the hour or so before you start playing as one.

I'm not asking to be able to spread the Qun.  Playing as a member of the dalish didn't cause their culture to spread among other elves.  Playing as a dwarf in DAO didn't cause more people to worship the stone.  This is about my character and my character alone whose position of power in the world might drop significantly once the veil tears are closed.  I don't see how this affects importing.  

That is kind of the point though.   A Tal-Vashoth is now an individual, a person with their own desires and the freedom to choose their own direction.   They aren't an empty shell, they are finally free to have their OWN life and fill it how they want.   

It is the Qun followers who really are the empty shells, the robotic fanatical adherence to the Qun.    For a "true" believer of the Qun there is no self.   They are just the extension of the Qun.   

For it to be done right, the game would have to be altered dramatically.   You can't just go around vocalizing that you are for the Qun and your decisions are in adherence to the Qun and not have people respond much differently.  

I think it would be interesting though for them to add a line of dialog like that for the Qunari, so that people could see the reprecussions.    Everytime you mention the Qun as a factor in your decision, everyone of your Companions drop 20 points of approval.   Mentioning the Qun during negotiations with other factions always grants an immediate failure.    and of course, as your reputation as an actual Qunari spread across the land, the inquisition quickly becomes feared and hated by everyone you meet.   Your troops and agents desert you at every opportunity.    When you arrive at a new city, you find the gates shut and their guards and armies attack you on sight.    Being an actual Qunari follower who vocalizes themselves as such would find no one to left willing to follow their lead and soon find themselves an outlaw in a land banded against them.  

As such the main quest would likely be unachievable at this point, but you could play as long as you could survive the endless hordes of all the factions continuously attack you.

If you want to roleplay a Qunari follower, you should do it as a 'silent' infiltrator.   Make your decisions based on what you believe the Qun would want, but honestly, mentioning the Qun in dialog to others would be a recipe for disaster.

But this isn't about whether you're going to play a person who has freedom.  You're going to have choice no matter what.  This is about what characters will have a history and culture to draw upon in their conversations with other people.  And from that standpoint Tal-Vashoth are an empty shell completely devoid of culture.  In fact it seems their only purpose in life is to sell their bodies.  Which is a great backstory for a mindless brute.  For any other type of person though it's pretty lacking.

If the Qun was so universally reviled it wouldn't be such a threat.  Even after Quanri are forced from areas they conquered the religion lives on and people willingly hold on to it(Rivaini for instance).  That's not to mention the people in areas the Qunari haven't taken over who have decided to convert willingly(Seamus Dumar, elves in Act 2).  Demons are spreading across the land, blood mages are rising up and demanding power, the templars have split from the chantry and everyone is fearful that mages can no longer be controlled.  And then along comes a man/woman with a religion called the Qun that believes in completely irradicating or shackling mages no matter the situation.  And she/he has the authority and capacity for violence to make this happen.  You're trying to tell me that the hardline templars who are disillusioned with the chantry, possibly even questioning their faith, and desperately want help to bring the mages to heel would dismiss this? Not to mention the regular people who are just afraid and want to be under the umbrella of an organization that can protect them? Not to mention the multitiude of people across Thedas who believe their lives have been ruined by magic(Fenris).

[Han Shot First]

I012345 wrote...


I think it's obvious the devs will force us to be Tal-Vashoth but the question is, is that right.  And it seems that from a culture standpoint it obviously makes Qunari a weaker choice.  No matter what version of drawf, elf or human you pick there's a thousand years of history and culture that you bring with you.  In DAO you could tell party members about how you adjusted to being on the surface or how your people don't bury their dead but instead place them in the stone.  Or about how you had to adjust to racism in the alienage.  Or about your clan spending decades trying to reclaim their lost history.  What history and culture do the Qunari have that doesn't come from the Qun?

Being a Tal-Vashoth is in no way a weaker choice. When you first jumped into DA:O you did not know anything about the Grey Wardens, but that lore was gradually revealed as you played through the game. Obviously DA:I is going to delve more into the culture of the Tal-Vashoths, between a potential Qunari PC and the Iron Bull companion.

You mention that in DAO a Dwarf Warden could talk with party members about how they adjusted to the surface, or that an Elf Warden could discuss racism in the alienage or life in a Dalish camp. What factors would prevent a Tal Vashoth from doing the same? There could certainly be a rich backstory about class struggle (many of the Tal Vashoth come from the lowest rungs of Qunari society) and religious intolerance. Interactions with other Qunari characters could also be interesting, since a Tal Vashoth PC would be viewed as an apostate by any follower of the Qun.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 05 septembre 2013 - 04:06 .

[DarthLaxian]

so you want to be a zealot that brainwashed people, hurts them and drugs them?

sorry, the things people want to be today...hell, i myself have trouble with some of the bad decisions you can make in the games (like sacrificing the Alienage Elfs in DA:O and letting the magister perform a blood-magic-ritual for you, so that you spare him), while others seem to love those (i love that they are in the game, but IMHO one should strive to never do those) *shakes his head and sighs*

greetings LAX
ps: you can take this as a: No way - Never! (being Tal-Vashot is OK though, because those show the courage to actually refuse to stay like that and do those things in the name of a bad "religion" - risking death in the process!)

[Han Shot First]

Id like for those who prefer the Oxman PC to be a follower of the Qun, to explain how Bioware could get around the fact that the Qunari leash their mages and sew their lips shut and would not allow women to be warriors. Since the Qunari player character can be female or a mage, how do the writers get around those restrictions while not totally discarding established lore? How does the player retain agency when a character's options would be limited by slavish devotion to a religious doctrine and hierarchy?

A Tal Vashoth is so much better in that it doesn't run into any lore restrictions.