141 réponses à ce sujet

[Dycho]

I wanna apologize for my first post as it was rushed and lacked many of what I wished to express.

First is like I said, they announced that a "Origin" is going to be one not of the Qun. However, they should give you the option to do what you want...and that's to become apart of the Qun later. Like the ending of Origins where you got one more chance to state what your gonna do with your life like stay with your LI, or go adventuring...or perhaps return to Val Halla (been awhile so forgive me) to become Qunari. This can probably be done by all sorts of players weather they followed the qun or not. Now you can get 2 types of ending txts where if you weren't truly of the Qun but choose to end into it (which all no matter the class or gender) you will end up finally receiving our well known Stens treatment for those who were honorable but faltered from the path of the Qun. Which aka means you will be Brainwashed and become a conducted member of society. Now for you and others willing to Role-play to specific guidelines you will receive a ending where you are accepted without said mental washing.

A origin cannot work, Tallis is not apart of the race but of the people of Quanari and we do not know if they receive the same harsh guidelines as the others do. Sten was very one dimensional no matter how you used him. He changed yes, even the Arishock back in 2 was out of the norm to the Qun in which case if he returns if alive he might have also received the harsh guidelines that would require some retraining of the mind. But for Qunari to be a playable race for the many who wish to have freedom to do many things weather it be follow the Qun or not (you know as much as me many will not). So it makes sense that a Origin is out of the question, but by no means should a game or company like bioware have much trouble putting markers and an ending where you can become a true Qunari.

You should realize, some are taking offense that you are calling everything else "Boring" if it isn't the way you wanted. You are NOT the voice of many, however you are not alone and I hope that is seen by a dev. When making or giving your side, you should/need to leave out such attacks on things in order to obtain more beneficial support. I had to step back and look at it all and see what you were TRYING to do, not what all you were saying. I can go on specifics but I will hope since I acknowledge your want and hope for such a way that you will also indulge my statement and accept that you could have had a better Opening Text.

[Little Princess Peach]

what about a pc Qunari, that is has no opinion on the religion at the start, but then the pc can either choose to paths later on in game as he/she gradually evolves as person, who questions the Qun or follows it willingly.

[Chashan]

Han Shot First wrote...

Id like for those who prefer the Oxman PC to be a follower of the Qun, to explain how Bioware could get around the fact that the Qunari leash their mages and sew their lips shut and would not allow women to be warriors. Since the Qunari player character can be female or a mage, how do the writers get around those restrictions while not totally discarding established lore? How does the player retain agency when a character's options would be limited by slavish devotion to a religious doctrine and hierarchy?

A Tal Vashoth is so much better in that it doesn't run into any lore restrictions.

Can dwarves be mages? No.

Could elves be Dalish Keepers/Firsts instead of Circle apprentices in DA:O? Again, not the case.

I don't see the problem with Qunari mage-background being restricted to a Tal-Vashoth one, if BW wish to go that way.

Other than that, BW partly said their goodbyes to that type of depiction once already anyway, though some may hate to admit that: Tallis.

[omnitremere]

Chashan wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Id like for those who prefer the Oxman PC to be a follower of the Qun, to explain how Bioware could get around the fact that the Qunari leash their mages and sew their lips shut and would not allow women to be warriors. Since the Qunari player character can be female or a mage, how do the writers get around those restrictions while not totally discarding established lore? How does the player retain agency when a character's options would be limited by slavish devotion to a religious doctrine and hierarchy?

A Tal Vashoth is so much better in that it doesn't run into any lore restrictions.

Can dwarves be mages? No.

Could elves be Dalish Keepers/Firsts instead of Circle apprentices in DA:O? Again, not the case.

I don't see the problem with Qunari mage-background being restricted to a Tal-Vashoth one, if BW wish to go that way.

Other than that, BW partly said their goodbyes to that type of depiction once already anyway, though some may hate to admit that: Tallis.

Exactly.  it kills me that people are totally okay with dwarves not being mages but think it's wrong to have a character follow the Qun because it would limit your choices.  

And yes Tallis proves that a woman who follows the Qun can commit acts of violence.  Will the Qun demand that? No.  Will you be given a role that specifically requires violence(hunt Tal-Vashoth and Saarebas)? Probably not.  But the Qun doesn't demand that women not fight.  

[esper]

I012345 wrote...

esper wrote...

I012345 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

They wouldn't have to redo anything or change anything storywise.

I think you're understating this point....

Again I'm not asking for the gameworld to react ot my choice of following the Qun. And I'm not asking for other people's ability to roleplay qunari the same ways as elves and dwarves to be taken away. What I'm asking for is the ADDITION of us having the ability IF WE CHOOSE to do so to follow the Qun. That is strictly about adding in dialogue. No cutscenes, no story changes, no additional actions. Strictly dialogue and VO work. Which is definitely work and money in and of itself. But it's not on the scale of what you're talking about.

Can you create a hypothetical example for how this would work.... You're saying that you want a game where you can speak as though you support the Qun, but not have it alter people's reactions or have any sort of difference in the actual campaign.

What I have imagined in my head, based on your criteria, is a game experience that doesn't really make any sense.

Okay let's do an example based on the judgement concept art with the female Qunari.  Mages are brought befeore a dwarf to be sentenced.  The executioner asks what is to be done with them.  The dwarf says he wants them executed because mages are dangerous and shouldn't be allowed to freely walk among other people.  Some people in your keep/party agree and some people don't.  

Mages are brought before a Qunari to be setenced.  The executioner asks what is to be done with them.  The Qunari says the Qun demands that they be executed.  Some people in your keep/party agree with your decision and some don't.  

See what I'm saying is the only thing people need to react to is the decision itself.  I'm not asking devs to create a game where people react specifically because you follow the Qun. Just like they may not react to you worshipping the stone.  And I don't understand why people feel like this doesn't work.  Because both games and I assume DAI definitely allow for you to follow the maker and run around slaughtering mages because you believe they're meant to serve man.  And DAO allowed for you to at least keep some sense of history and culture when playing a Dwarf or Elf.  So why is it ridiculous to say you should be allowed to at least on some level try to follow the Qun as a Qunari?

Thanks for dropping in Allan.  

Expect since you are not their avarard (was that how it was spelled?) and does not have their control rod, you then have to kill everyone (including your team) because they might have spoken to them, and gotten them possessed by demon. If we has to go with what the Sarabass keeper said to Hawke if you transfer Ketojan over willingly.

Anyway we have not been promised a Qunari (religion) we have been promised Qunari (race), my guess is that we are likely Tal-Vashot or a child of a Tal-vashot pair. It is much more easier to give us the options to follow the Tal-Vashots code of behaviour (since that is basically violent mecernary) than a Qun-followers.

I'm sorry but it's the opposite.  The specific role of the Arvaarad is to leash mages and kill Tal-Vashoth.  Nobody else has that role.  So as long as I'm not an Arvaarad that's not a role I would be expected to fulfill.  Otherwise why doesn't the Arishok strike you down immediately upon meeting you? Or why don't the remaining Qunari kill you after you've killed the Arishok and it's obvious you have magic powers? Instead in Act 3 a member of the Qunari approaches you for help regardless of what class you are.  

I think it's obvious the devs will force us to be Tal-Vashoth but the question is, is that right.  And it seems that from a culture standpoint it obviously makes Qunari a weaker choice.  No matter what version of drawf, elf or human you pick there's a thousand years of history and culture that you bring with you.  In DAO you could tell party members about how you adjusted to being on the surface or how your people don't bury their dead but instead place them in the stone.  Or about how you had to adjust to racism in the alienage.  Or about your clan spending decades trying to reclaim their lost history.  What history and culture do the Qunari have that doesn't come from the Qun?

Because the Arishok doesn't know you have magic power? You might not have noticed, but the inhabitant of Kirkwall are sort of blind to that thing. By the time he notice it you are properly fighting him head on.

Well, A Tal-vashot have their own culture as well. The role of Tal-Vashot is also defined by the Qun. My guess is that you can say that you have to revel iun violence and sell your combat abilities because that is what Tal-vashot does. Those aspect is also workable with a protagonist, because as a Tal-Vashot you do not have to follow them (you can go Meeran's route), but as a Qunari you have to follow the rules.

[omnitremere]

Han Shot First wrote...

I012345 wrote...


I think it's obvious the devs will force us to be Tal-Vashoth but the question is, is that right.  And it seems that from a culture standpoint it obviously makes Qunari a weaker choice.  No matter what version of drawf, elf or human you pick there's a thousand years of history and culture that you bring with you.  In DAO you could tell party members about how you adjusted to being on the surface or how your people don't bury their dead but instead place them in the stone.  Or about how you had to adjust to racism in the alienage.  Or about your clan spending decades trying to reclaim their lost history.  What history and culture do the Qunari have that doesn't come from the Qun?

Being a Tal-Vashoth is in no way a weaker choice. When you first jumped into DA:O you did not know anything about the Grey Wardens, but that lore was gradually revealed as you played through the game. Obviously DA:I is going to delve more into the culture of the Tal-Vashoths, between a potential Qunari PC and the Iron Bull companion.

You mention that in DAO a Dwarf Warden could talk with party members about how they adjusted to the surface, or that an Elf Warden could discuss racism in the alienage or life in a Dalish camp. What factors would prevent a Tal Vashoth from doing the same? There could certainly be a rich backstory about class struggle (many of the Tal Vashoth come from the lowest rungs of Qunari society) and religious intolerance. Interactions with other Qunari characters could also be interesting, since a Tal Vashoth PC would be viewed as an apostate by any follower of the Qun.

You're right we didn't know anything about grey wardens.  Because we spent damn near an hour learning about our own culture and our history.  You're not Revan waking up and having no idea who you are.  They went through great pains to make you feel like you're part of an entire race that has a rich history and background.  And then they move onto your role in the game.  Your example only helps my point.  You're a Qunari first and an Inquisitor second.

The dwarf example also doesn't make sense because Tal'Vashoth by definition have no culture.  Their whole reason for being is abandonment of the Qun.  They don't band together and form their own communities and groups.  They're not forming a rival culture or way of life.  So the thousands of years worth of history elves, dwarves and humans get to draw upon? Completely passed over if you're a Qunari.  How is that not the weaker choice? 

[omnitremere]

esper wrote...

I012345 wrote...

esper wrote...

I012345 wrote...

Allan Schumacher wrote...

They wouldn't have to redo anything or change anything storywise.

I think you're understating this point....

Again I'm not asking for the gameworld to react ot my choice of following the Qun. And I'm not asking for other people's ability to roleplay qunari the same ways as elves and dwarves to be taken away. What I'm asking for is the ADDITION of us having the ability IF WE CHOOSE to do so to follow the Qun. That is strictly about adding in dialogue. No cutscenes, no story changes, no additional actions. Strictly dialogue and VO work. Which is definitely work and money in and of itself. But it's not on the scale of what you're talking about.

Can you create a hypothetical example for how this would work.... You're saying that you want a game where you can speak as though you support the Qun, but not have it alter people's reactions or have any sort of difference in the actual campaign.

What I have imagined in my head, based on your criteria, is a game experience that doesn't really make any sense.

Okay let's do an example based on the judgement concept art with the female Qunari.  Mages are brought befeore a dwarf to be sentenced.  The executioner asks what is to be done with them.  The dwarf says he wants them executed because mages are dangerous and shouldn't be allowed to freely walk among other people.  Some people in your keep/party agree and some people don't.  

Mages are brought before a Qunari to be setenced.  The executioner asks what is to be done with them.  The Qunari says the Qun demands that they be executed.  Some people in your keep/party agree with your decision and some don't.  

See what I'm saying is the only thing people need to react to is the decision itself.  I'm not asking devs to create a game where people react specifically because you follow the Qun. Just like they may not react to you worshipping the stone.  And I don't understand why people feel like this doesn't work.  Because both games and I assume DAI definitely allow for you to follow the maker and run around slaughtering mages because you believe they're meant to serve man.  And DAO allowed for you to at least keep some sense of history and culture when playing a Dwarf or Elf.  So why is it ridiculous to say you should be allowed to at least on some level try to follow the Qun as a Qunari?

Thanks for dropping in Allan.  

Expect since you are not their avarard (was that how it was spelled?) and does not have their control rod, you then have to kill everyone (including your team) because they might have spoken to them, and gotten them possessed by demon. If we has to go with what the Sarabass keeper said to Hawke if you transfer Ketojan over willingly.

Anyway we have not been promised a Qunari (religion) we have been promised Qunari (race), my guess is that we are likely Tal-Vashot or a child of a Tal-vashot pair. It is much more easier to give us the options to follow the Tal-Vashots code of behaviour (since that is basically violent mecernary) than a Qun-followers.

I'm sorry but it's the opposite.  The specific role of the Arvaarad is to leash mages and kill Tal-Vashoth.  Nobody else has that role.  So as long as I'm not an Arvaarad that's not a role I would be expected to fulfill.  Otherwise why doesn't the Arishok strike you down immediately upon meeting you? Or why don't the remaining Qunari kill you after you've killed the Arishok and it's obvious you have magic powers? Instead in Act 3 a member of the Qunari approaches you for help regardless of what class you are.  

I think it's obvious the devs will force us to be Tal-Vashoth but the question is, is that right.  And it seems that from a culture standpoint it obviously makes Qunari a weaker choice.  No matter what version of drawf, elf or human you pick there's a thousand years of history and culture that you bring with you.  In DAO you could tell party members about how you adjusted to being on the surface or how your people don't bury their dead but instead place them in the stone.  Or about how you had to adjust to racism in the alienage.  Or about your clan spending decades trying to reclaim their lost history.  What history and culture do the Qunari have that doesn't come from the Qun?

Because the Arishok doesn't know you have magic power? You might not have noticed, but the inhabitant of Kirkwall are sort of blind to that thing. By the time he notice it you are properly fighting him head on.

Well, A Tal-vashot have their own culture as well. The role of Tal-Vashot is also defined by the Qun. My guess is that you can say that you have to revel iun violence and sell your combat abilities because that is what Tal-vashot does. Those aspect is also workable with a protagonist, because as a Tal-Vashot you do not have to follow them (you can go Meeran's route), but as a Qunari you have to follow the rules.

Again the Arishok's followers don't attack you after you defeat the Arishok.  Despite having heard your voice and despite knowing unqestionably that you're a mage after using magic powers to defat the Arishok.  Then on top of that an ambassador for the Qunari asks for your help in Act 3.  

Tal-Vashoth don't have their own culture.  They don't band together, have kinship, nor do they have any definied way of life.  The only consistent thread between them is that they reject the Qun.  Some of them decide to sell their bodies but some of them don't.  They're not attempting to create an alternative to the Qun.  They just have decided not to accept it for themselves.  Or at least that's what's been communicated to us through the first two games and the other Dragon Age media.  Compare that to any other race in DA and it's obvious there's no culture there.  

[Han Shot First]

Chashan wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Id like for those who prefer the Oxman PC to be a follower of the Qun, to explain how Bioware could get around the fact that the Qunari leash their mages and sew their lips shut and would not allow women to be warriors. Since the Qunari player character can be female or a mage, how do the writers get around those restrictions while not totally discarding established lore? How does the player retain agency when a character's options would be limited by slavish devotion to a religious doctrine and hierarchy?

A Tal Vashoth is so much better in that it doesn't run into any lore restrictions.

Can dwarves be mages? No.

It is my understanding that mages are already confirmed for a Qunari PC. There is no getting around the fact that the Qunari don't trust mages at all and quite literally keep them on a short leash. I don't see how that would be doable unless the player character was a Tal Vashoth and not restricted by the Qun.

Chashan wrote...

Other than that, BW partly said their goodbyes to that type of depiction once already anyway, though some may hate to admit that: Tallis.

You still have similar restrictions. Female Ben-Hassrath are not warriors (more like rogues), and the Ben-Hassrath prefer agents from other races (like Tallis) to act as spies in foreign lands.

I012345 wrote...

You're right we didn't know anything about grey wardens.  Because we spent damn near an hour learning about our own culture and our history.  You're not Revan waking up and having no idea who you are.  They went through great pains to make you feel like you're part of an entire race that has a rich history and background.  And then they move onto your role in the game.  Your example only helps my point.  You're a Qunari first and an Inquisitor second.

The dwarf example also doesn't make sense because Tal'Vashoth by definition have no culture.  Their whole reason for being is abandonment of the Qun.  They don't band together and form their own communities and groups.  They're not forming a rival culture or way of life.  So the thousands of years worth of history elves, dwarves and humans get to draw upon? Completely passed over if you're a Qunari.  How is that not the weaker choice? 

A Tal Vashoth might come from one of the lower rungs of the Qunari caste system, and have a backstory of fleeing from both that a rigid class sytem and religious intolerance. How is that not tied to Qunari culture? Your argument that a Tal Vashoth would have a less rich backstory than a follower of the Qun doesn't make much sense.

Also If anything it opens up avenues to expand the lore on a portion of Qunari society that hasn't yet been explored in depth. To compare it to the Dwarves, it would be like expanding the lore on the casteless if they had only brief mention in previous games.

You may prefer a follower of the Qun or find it more interesting than a Tal Vashoth, and nothing is wrong with that. It is a personal preference, and we all have them. But the argument that one is a 'weaker' choice than the other and has a potentially less rich backstory, just isn't true.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 05 septembre 2013 - 05:30 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Giving you a qunari pc is not the demand of the game, and you should all be grateful!

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 05 septembre 2013 - 05:31 .

[omnitremere]

Dycho wrote...

I wanna apologize for my first post as it was rushed and lacked many of what I wished to express.

First is like I said, they announced that a "Origin" is going to be one not of the Qun. However, they should give you the option to do what you want...and that's to become apart of the Qun later. Like the ending of Origins where you got one more chance to state what your gonna do with your life like stay with your LI, or go adventuring...or perhaps return to Val Halla (been awhile so forgive me) to become Qunari. This can probably be done by all sorts of players weather they followed the qun or not. Now you can get 2 types of ending txts where if you weren't truly of the Qun but choose to end into it (which all no matter the class or gender) you will end up finally receiving our well known Stens treatment for those who were honorable but faltered from the path of the Qun. Which aka means you will be Brainwashed and become a conducted member of society. Now for you and others willing to Role-play to specific guidelines you will receive a ending where you are accepted without said mental washing.

A origin cannot work, Tallis is not apart of the race but of the people of Quanari and we do not know if they receive the same harsh guidelines as the others do. Sten was very one dimensional no matter how you used him. He changed yes, even the Arishock back in 2 was out of the norm to the Qun in which case if he returns if alive he might have also received the harsh guidelines that would require some retraining of the mind. But for Qunari to be a playable race for the many who wish to have freedom to do many things weather it be follow the Qun or not (you know as much as me many will not). So it makes sense that a Origin is out of the question, but by no means should a game or company like bioware have much trouble putting markers and an ending where you can become a true Qunari.

You should realize, some are taking offense that you are calling everything else "Boring" if it isn't the way you wanted. You are NOT the voice of many, however you are not alone and I hope that is seen by a dev. When making or giving your side, you should/need to leave out such attacks on things in order to obtain more beneficial support. I had to step back and look at it all and see what you were TRYING to do, not what all you were saying. I can go on specifics but I will hope since I acknowledge your want and hope for such a way that you will also indulge my statement and accept that you could have had a better Opening Text.

I don't understand why someone would take offense to that but if someone did I apologize.  In my experience people make very strong statements regarding their desires all the time on BSN but people don't take it personally.  My opening post certainly wasn't meant as a personal attack against anyone else.  I think Elves in DA are awesome but I don't take it personally if somebody else here says Elves suck.  But again I see your point and in the future I'll try to refrain from judgement calls on other peoples playstyles.  Thank you for the warning.

[Wissenschaft]

I012345 wrote...

Tal-Vashoth don't have their own culture.  They don't band together, have kinship, nor do they have any definied way of life.  The only consistent thread between them is that they reject the Qun.  Some of them decide to sell their bodies but some of them don't.  They're not attempting to create an alternative to the Qun.  They just have decided not to accept it for themselves.  Or at least that's what's been communicated to us through the first two games and the other Dragon Age media.  Compare that to any other race in DA and it's obvious there's no culture there.  

 

Prehaps you missed the whole point of  Maraas in DA 2, who decired the Tal-vashoth as following the role the Qun attributes to them, that of the Bandit.  Maraas point was if they had really left the Qun they could choose their own purpose, instead the Tal-vashoth simply do whats expected of them and are Bandits. This is expected of them becasue the Qun is bigoted against those who would choose to leave the Qun. In other words, its assumed only some vile and without honor would choose to leave the Qun (choosing to leave their role but instead of through death they choose to continue to live without honor/purpose).

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 05 septembre 2013 - 05:59 .

[omnitremere]

Han Shot First wrote...

Chashan wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Id like for those who prefer the Oxman PC to be a follower of the Qun, to explain how Bioware could get around the fact that the Qunari leash their mages and sew their lips shut and would not allow women to be warriors. Since the Qunari player character can be female or a mage, how do the writers get around those restrictions while not totally discarding established lore? How does the player retain agency when a character's options would be limited by slavish devotion to a religious doctrine and hierarchy?

A Tal Vashoth is so much better in that it doesn't run into any lore restrictions.

Can dwarves be mages? No.

It is my understanding that mages are already confirmed for a Qunari PC. There is no getting around the fact that the Qunari don't trust mages at all and quite literally keep them on a short leash. I don't see how that would be doable unless the player character was a Tal Vashoth and not restricted by the Qun.

Chashan wrote...

Other than that, BW partly said their goodbyes to that type of depiction once already anyway, though some may hate to admit that: Tallis.

You still have similar restrictions. Female Ben-Hassrath are not warriors (more like rogues), and the Ben-Hassrath prefer agents from other races (like Tallis) to act as spies in foreign lands.

I012345 wrote...

You're right we didn't know anything about grey wardens.  Because we spent damn near an hour learning about our own culture and our history.  You're not Revan waking up and having no idea who you are.  They went through great pains to make you feel like you're part of an entire race that has a rich history and background.  And then they move onto your role in the game.  Your example only helps my point.  You're a Qunari first and an Inquisitor second.

The dwarf example also doesn't make sense because Tal'Vashoth by definition have no culture.  Their whole reason for being is abandonment of the Qun.  They don't band together and form their own communities and groups.  They're not forming a rival culture or way of life.  So the thousands of years worth of history elves, dwarves and humans get to draw upon? Completely passed over if you're a Qunari.  How is that not the weaker choice? 

A Tal Vashoth might come from one of the lower rungs of the Qunari caste system, and have a backstory of fleeing from both that a rigid class sytem and religious intolerance. How is that not tied to Qunari culture? Your argument that a Tal Vashoth would have a less rich backstory than a follower of the Qun doesn't make much sense.

Also If anything it opens up avenues to expand the lore on a portion of Qunari society that hasn't yet been explored in depth. To compare it to the Dwarves, it would be like expanding the lore on the casteless if they had only brief mention in previous games.

You may prefer a follower of the Qun or find it more interesting than a Tal Vashoth, and nothing is wrong with that. It is a personal preference, and we all have them. But the argument that one is a 'weaker' choice than the other and has a potentially less rich backstory, just isn't true.

I have to disagree with you.  In the backstory you present from the very beginning player choice is taken away.  In DAO you weren't forced into a particular perspective or way of life except by being born into it.  In your example you're basically okay with Bioware saying that YOU chose to reject the Qun whether the player actually made that choice or not.  How is that a character you're in control of? I can't see them ever putting you in the shoes of someone who made such a huge decision with no input from the player.  Because of that it seems to me they can't have a backstory where the PC turned away from the Qun.  Or at least that can't be the only backstory.

Also maybe I'm misunderstanding the information coming out but I thought that the Qunari you choose will have a backstory that's independent of the Qun.  Even the example you present is interesting because it's about the Qun and it's effect on the life of this person.  Take the Qun out of that story and there's really nothing keeping it from being a story about a human.  

Also I think you're missing my main point.  This isn't really about whether Tal'Vashoth is a weaker choice than a follower of the Qun.  This is about whether or not Qunari is a weaker choice compared to the other races if you're locked in to being a Tal'Vashoth.  In DAO is being a dwarf weakened if you must be castless as supposed to having both options? Is being an elf weakened by being forced into an alienage as supposed to also having the option of being Dalish? Yes on both counts in my opinion.  So why doesn't it make sense that Qunari are weaker for being forced into being Tal'Vashoth as supposed to the option of also being followers of the Qun?

[Wissenschaft]

Some people are assuming that when you play Qunari in DA: I, your character would have had a chance to reject the Qun. What if you were born outside of the Qunari lands and have never been in a land that followed the Qun? You could be the child of a mercenary company of Qunari. In which case you have no more knowlege of the Qun then any one else in Thedas.

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 05 septembre 2013 - 06:14 .

[omnitremere]

Wissenschaft wrote...

I012345 wrote...

Tal-Vashoth don't have their own culture.  They don't band together, have kinship, nor do they have any definied way of life.  The only consistent thread between them is that they reject the Qun.  Some of them decide to sell their bodies but some of them don't.  They're not attempting to create an alternative to the Qun.  They just have decided not to accept it for themselves.  Or at least that's what's been communicated to us through the first two games and the other Dragon Age media.  Compare that to any other race in DA and it's obvious there's no culture there.  

 

Prehaps you missed the whole point of  Maraas in DA 2, who decired the Tal-vashoth as following the role the Qun attributes to them, that of the Bandit.  Maraas point was if they had really left the Qun they could choose their own purpose, instead the Tal-vashoth simply do whats expected of them and are Bandits. This is expected of them becasue the Qun is bigoted against those who would choose to leave the Qun. In other words, its assumed only some vile and without honor would choose to leave the Qun (choosing to leave their role but instead of through death they choose to continue to live without honor/purpose).

I don't understand how this is an argument against me.  My argument was that the Tal'Vashoth have no culture and aren't creating an alternative to the Qun.  Your argument is also that they have no culture and are basically continuing to follow the Qun in their own honorless fashion.  Am I missing something? Where's the beef?

[Wissenschaft]

I012345 wrote...

Wissenschaft wrote...

I012345 wrote...

Tal-Vashoth don't have their own culture.  They don't band together, have kinship, nor do they have any definied way of life.  The only consistent thread between them is that they reject the Qun.  Some of them decide to sell their bodies but some of them don't.  They're not attempting to create an alternative to the Qun.  They just have decided not to accept it for themselves.  Or at least that's what's been communicated to us through the first two games and the other Dragon Age media.  Compare that to any other race in DA and it's obvious there's no culture there.  

 

Prehaps you missed the whole point of  Maraas in DA 2, who decired the Tal-vashoth as following the role the Qun attributes to them, that of the Bandit.  Maraas point was if they had really left the Qun they could choose their own purpose, instead the Tal-vashoth simply do whats expected of them and are Bandits. This is expected of them becasue the Qun is bigoted against those who would choose to leave the Qun. In other words, its assumed only some vile and without honor would choose to leave the Qun (choosing to leave their role but instead of through death they choose to continue to live without honor/purpose).

I don't understand how this is an argument against me.  My argument was that the Tal'Vashoth have no culture and aren't creating an alternative to the Qun.  Your argument is also that they have no culture and are basically continuing to follow the Qun in their own honorless fashion.  Am I missing something? Where's the beef?

 

They do have a culture, or role to be more precise. That of being a bandit. So in other words, they have not actually left the Qun culture at all. Which makes them fools.


And I didn't mean come off as having a Beef with you. I'm just making a correction.  

Modifié par Wissenschaft, 05 septembre 2013 - 06:18 .

[omnitremere]

Wissenschaft wrote...

Some people are assuming that when you play Qunari in DA: I, your character would have had a chance to reject the Qun. What if you were born outside of the Qunari lands and have never been in a land that followed the Qun? You could be the child of a mercenary company of Qunari. In which case you have no more knowlege of the Qun then any one else in Thedas.

That to me makes much more sense as a background if they're not going to be a follower of the Qun.  And that's basically my problem because a human slides into that backstory just as easily.  With the Elves and Dwarves you can't put a human into their same situations.  It doesn't work because the culture is too rich and differentiated.  

[Wissenschaft]

Well, to be honest, we've no clue at this point what the back story for each race shall be. This is just baseless speculation. There are certainly ways they could make each races' background interesting so I'm not concerned.

[omnitremere]

Wissenschaft wrote...

I012345 wrote...

Wissenschaft wrote...

I012345 wrote...

Tal-Vashoth don't have their own culture.  They don't band together, have kinship, nor do they have any definied way of life.  The only consistent thread between them is that they reject the Qun.  Some of them decide to sell their bodies but some of them don't.  They're not attempting to create an alternative to the Qun.  They just have decided not to accept it for themselves.  Or at least that's what's been communicated to us through the first two games and the other Dragon Age media.  Compare that to any other race in DA and it's obvious there's no culture there.  

 

Prehaps you missed the whole point of  Maraas in DA 2, who decired the Tal-vashoth as following the role the Qun attributes to them, that of the Bandit.  Maraas point was if they had really left the Qun they could choose their own purpose, instead the Tal-vashoth simply do whats expected of them and are Bandits. This is expected of them becasue the Qun is bigoted against those who would choose to leave the Qun. In other words, its assumed only some vile and without honor would choose to leave the Qun (choosing to leave their role but instead of through death they choose to continue to live without honor/purpose).

I don't understand how this is an argument against me.  My argument was that the Tal'Vashoth have no culture and aren't creating an alternative to the Qun.  Your argument is also that they have no culture and are basically continuing to follow the Qun in their own honorless fashion.  Am I missing something? Where's the beef?

 

They do have a culture, or role to be more precise. That of being a bandit. So in other words, they have not actually left the Qun culture at all. Which makes them fools.


And I didn't mean come off as having a Beef with you. I'm just making a correction.  

Sorry that's not really what I meant.  Poor use of the phrase.  I was basically saying where is the disagreement between us.  I still don't understand how you're arguing against my point.  My point is the Tal'Vashoth don't have a culture.  Your point is that they're basically half-ass following the Qun and still adopting that culture.  Which doesn't negate my point that the Tal'Vashoth have no culture of their own.  Castless dwarves have carved out a way of life separate from the nobles.  Elves in the alienage have carved out an existence completely different from Dalish Elves.  The Tal'Vashoth don't compare.  At least not up to this point.

[Urazz]

Wissenschaft wrote...

I012345 wrote...

Tal-Vashoth don't have their own culture.  They don't band together, have kinship, nor do they have any definied way of life.  The only consistent thread between them is that they reject the Qun.  Some of them decide to sell their bodies but some of them don't.  They're not attempting to create an alternative to the Qun.  They just have decided not to accept it for themselves.  Or at least that's what's been communicated to us through the first two games and the other Dragon Age media.  Compare that to any other race in DA and it's obvious there's no culture there.  

 

Prehaps you missed the whole point of  Maraas in DA 2, who decired the Tal-vashoth as following the role the Qun attributes to them, that of the Bandit.  Maraas point was if they had really left the Qun they could choose their own purpose, instead the Tal-vashoth simply do whats expected of them and are Bandits. This is expected of them becasue the Qun is bigoted against those who would choose to leave the Qun. In other words, its assumed only some vile and without honor would choose to leave the Qun (choosing to leave their role but instead of through death they choose to continue to live without honor/purpose).

Wrong, he never said that the Tal-Vashoth had a role of a bandit or anything like that.  I just watched the both scenes he had in DA2 and he never did any of that.  I also checked the wiki section for Tal-Vashoth and it says you are wrong as well.

Maraas said that the ones he was with still clung to the honor they had under the Qun and won't sell their swords as mercenaries.  It is because of this that they resort to murder and stealing from people.  He never said they were still following the Qun in a half-assed fashion or not.

Wissenschaft wrote...

Well, to be honest, we've no clue at this point what the back story for each race shall be. This is just baseless speculation. There are certainly ways they could make each races' background interesting so I'm not concerned.

Unless they want to hire different voice actors for each race to show that they are from different regions, then the background is most likely going to be City Elf, Surface Dwarf, Tal-Vashoth (or Tal-Vashoth parents), and human all from the same town or something like that.

Modifié par Urazz, 05 septembre 2013 - 07:05 .

[MDCT506]

I012345 wrote...

People keep saying that you wouldn't be able to make decisions but I don't see where the logic comes from.  In DA2 the Arishok made a decision on his own to convert the entire city to the Qun.  In the beginning he made it clear that, that was NOT his role and he didn't feel the right to do so.  But over time he made a judgement call and on his own decided to make that his role because of his situation.  That says there is some level of flexibility at least among the leadership to make their own decisions about how to follow the Qun.

And as far as mercy the only reason the Qunari army pulled back from the first war was because the Rivaini people were being slaughtered.  All of them hadn't been converted yet.  Which tells me there is a capacity for mercy even for Bas within the Qun.  But of course about that I could be wrong.

Very true, he did eventually make a choice outside of his normal role, so it is possible.  That choice also took him three years to make and involved numerous third parties poking the proverbial hornet's nest until the Arishok finally blew his stack. 

IRRC, the Rivaini people being massacred occured after the war ended when the people who converted to the Qun refused to renounce it.  Of course you could say that not sacking Kirkwall for three years counts as mercy of a sort. 

[Chashan]

Han Shot First wrote...

It is my understanding that mages are already confirmed for a Qunari PC. There is no getting around the fact that the Qunari don't trust mages at all and quite literally keep them on a short leash. I don't see how that would be doable unless the player character was a Tal Vashoth and not restricted by the Qun.

Hence my saying that restricting magician-class to a Tal-Vashoth
background is one possible way to go. Also not a first that mages got a separate background of their own within a playable ethnicity, given DA:O's Circle mage background.

Han Shot First wrote...

You still have similar restrictions. Female Ben-Hassrath are not warriors (more like rogues), and the Ben-Hassrath prefer agents from other races (like Tallis) to act as spies in foreign lands.

Preference doesn't mean exclusion, and as I posited before: qunari taking the role of leadership of a Thedosian organization could be beneficial to the qun due to the fact an iconic oxman leads them and succeeds. A gamble, true, but worth it if it worked out.

I01 put it quite well, really: think of it as a choice not dissimilar to Dwarven Commoner and Noble. Was the Dwarven background any worse off for the choice provided(one I wish hyoomies had, lack of a commoner and being left with mage, the class I found less than exciting in DA:O, never made me warm up to the idea of playing them), not to mention Dalish and Alienage background for elves?

Modifié par Chashan, 05 septembre 2013 - 08:19 .

[Allan Schumacher]

Mages are brought before a Qunari to be setenced. The executioner asks what is to be done with them. The Qunari says the Qun demands that they be executed. Some people in your keep/party agree with your decision and some don't.

I can understand this example. Lets try something of a bit bigger scope:

How would you deal with the Landsmeet as a Qunari character?

[LolaLei]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

Mages are brought before a Qunari to be setenced. The executioner asks what is to be done with them. The Qunari says the Qun demands that they be executed. Some people in your keep/party agree with your decision and some don't.

I can understand this example. Lets try something of a bit bigger scope:

How would you deal with the Landsmeet as a Qunari character?

... Kill ALL the things? 

[The Hierophant]

Allan Schumacher wrote...

How would you deal with the Landsmeet as a Qunari character?

They would answer everything with one liners, challenge Loghain, behead (not bed) or honor bound him to convert to the Qun, and demand cake afterwards?

Mind you, Alistair and co had to give the Qunari Warden the run around as they'd march straight towards Denerim without gathering the allied forces, and raise hell.

[In Exile]

Allan Schumacher wrote...
I can understand this example. Lets try something of a bit bigger scope:

How would you deal with the Landsmeet as a Qunari character?

Mechanically, the burden to actually persuade the landsmeet has to be greater. A more perfect playthrough to get the same result. 

Cinematically, you'd need to have a more significant negative reaction to the qunari Warden. 

I'd set the scene up to have a procession for the Warden, and to have the room split in terms of supports. Jeers might be effectively, as well. Going from human => dwarf => elf => qunari,  I'd have a bigger gallery for Loghain.

You could also add a religious element. For the human and city elf, the Grand Cleric could stand aside, or plead for unity. For the dwarf and quanri - especially the qunari - the grand cleric could beseech the Landsmeet to ignore the heretic. The jeers could range from "knife-ear" to "heretic" as you're walking past toward Loghain. 

Ser Cautherin, if she meets you outside the Landsmeet, could have more nobles and more supporters on her side. 

Instead of mentioning Orlais, Loghain should accuse the Warden of selling out Ferelden to the qunari. He sould play on their fear of converstion. 

When you mention Slavery, Loghain should call you out for hypocrisy, saying thay our own people are an entire nation of - effectively - slavers. 

That's just off the top of my head.