208 réponses à ce sujet

[Jamie9]

It's easier for an analogue stick, and for me at least, a lot more pleasing to the eye. There's a certain elegance to a dialogue wheel that a massive list of options doesn't have.

[Ieldra]

Sidney wrote...
The point being the problems with dialog not being germaine to your character isn't an issue of the wheel OR the wall o text. It is a function of someone else writing your dialog at all - spoken or not - and the limited number of choices for your to make. The problem is the dialog is never likely what you, the player, want your player character to say because you are not the one saying it.

Not of the wheel mechanic in itself, no - thus my clarification that I don't have a problem with that - but it's exacerbated greatly by the paraphrasing. If I know what I'm going to say exactly, and I find no option I immediately like, I can select the least objectionable option based on the actual content of the spoken line. I've always been able to avoid destroying my protagonist that way, always before the arrival of paraphrasing, that is. In games that use paraphrasing, this was the reason for quite a few reloads. Sometimes several times for a single dialogue scene. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 septembre 2013 - 12:29 .

[Ziggeh]

Maiden Crowe wrote...
How so?

Were in the the DA:O lists is the "good" option?

Were is it on the ME wheel?

It's conveying additional information spatially. How valuable you consider that to be may vary, but it's definitely additional utility.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Plaintiff wrote...

From this player's point of view, the wheel has inferior utility compared to a simple list to select from.

The list has far less utility than the wheel, and this has been objectively demonstrated, many times, by the developers.

HAHA.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 05 septembre 2013 - 12:37 .

[Ieldra]

@all:
I concede the point about being able to infer the tone (good examples there btw). So let's say the wheel mechanic itself has additional utility by making it possible to infer things from placement on the wheel and additional indicators like in DA2. However, I maintain that all that added utility - and more - is taken away by the paraphrasing.

Or in short:
The dialogue wheel as a mechanic for selecting dialogue options is good.
Paraphrasing is evil.

[Ziggeh]

Ieldra2 wrote...
 I've always been able to avoid destroying my protagonist that way, always before the arrival of paraphrasing, that is. In games that use paraphrasing, this was the reason for quite a few reloads. Sometimes several times for a single dialogue scene.  

It comes down, I believe to the manner in which you play. Lists and silence are problematic in the way I approach these games, while voices and paraphrasing work incredibly well. As niether of us can say that either approach is inherently flawed, their choice is simply one of preference. Though I am surprised they haven't given the option of full text, but I suspect that comes with it's own set of problems. Toggles for everyone and all that.

[Jamie9]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Paraphrasing is evil.

Some players don't mind their character doing something a little unexpected - it can actually be part of the fun for them. You're viewing it purely from your POV, that role-playing your character comes above all other factors. That's not say for the entirety of BioWare's audience.

I've said since ME2 that paraphrasing should be a toggle. Fortunately, they pretty much have that in DA:I. I will certainly have it on.

Modifié par Jamie9, 05 septembre 2013 - 12:39 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

d4eaming wrote...

When my character finds out about Alistair being a half-blooded prince, I picked the option "so you're a royal bastard?" expecting it to be insulting- Alistair sort of giggled and smiled "haha yeah, yeah, I guess you could say that!" and says something about using that line later.

So, dialogue wheel haters- poof, there, my character just did something out of his nature because there was absolutely no way, whatsoever, to infer it was a joke and not an insult. At least if the line had been purple, I'd have known in advance what to expect.

Also, I despise it when people say "well they just misunderstood you, people do that in real life all the time!" Everyone does? Every time I open my mouth, all of my acquaintances and friends misunderstand every last thing I say? ...no. That's stupid.

You are wrong on every account. Yes, peoepl do misunderstand you.. sometimes on purpose.
If we assume you wanted to insult him:

- Alistair may have missedread your intent
- He may have understood your intent, but being a bastard doesn't bother him, so what you thought would hurt him and cause an angry reaction, does not.
- He may have understood but deliberately spun it into a joke...for variosu reasons. To give you a finger, to confuse you, as a defense mechanism. Whatever.

You are equating the reaction of another person with your intent. While they generally are predictable and the same, they don't have to be.

[Ieldra]

wright1978 wrote...
I assume the wheel replaced list because of its advantages in terms of dialogue flow. The same reason auto-dialogue replaced the wheel in ME3 sadly. I agree that wheel is imperfect and results in roleplayers like myself having to save regularly and reload when i come across voiced contents that don't match in major regards. In the recent Gameinformer discussions i listened to they seemed to talk about the wheel not being the final evolution of dialogue and that new innovations being cosnidered for future.

I wonder what that could be. I have a hard time envisioning the benefits of any system that keeps the idea of not being able to see what you're going to say. There's too much information potentially contained in a simple sentence. You'd need more indicators, and with every indicator things get more confusing, eating up all the simplicity of the system which makes it so appealing to some.    

[Maiden Crowe]

Ziggeh wrote...

Maiden Crowe wrote...
How so?

Were in the the DA:O lists is the "good" option?

Were is it on the ME wheel?

It's conveying additional information spatially. How valuable you consider that to be may vary, but it's definitely additional utility.

I suppose I see your point though it is not like this couldn't be done on a list however it would look a lot sillier

Still just to be a pain I present the following argument.

1. Best
2. Very Good
3. Good
4. Bad
5. Very Bad
6. Worst

[Ieldra]

Jamie9 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Paraphrasing is evil.

Some players don't mind their character doing something a little unexpected - it can actually be part of the fun for them. You're viewing it purely from your POV, that role-playing your character comes above all other factors. That's not say for the entirety of BioWare's audience.

I've said since ME2 that paraphrasing should be a toggle. Fortunately, they pretty much have that in DA:I. I will certainly have it on.

Doing something unexpected? No problem as such. Not necessarily, anyway. However, I very much doubt you wouldn't mind if your character said something that went against their core values as you envisioned them, just because there is no way to differentiate between "appreciative non-moralistic" and "appreciative moralistic" by placement on the wheel and the paraphrase failed to indicate what it would be.

Edit:
Yes, in DAI this will hopefully cease to be a problem. I'm discussing it because I don't see any benefits in paraphrasing that aren't greatly outweighed by its disadvantages.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 septembre 2013 - 12:51 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Ziggeh wrote...
Were in the the DA:O lists is the "good" option?

Were is it on the ME wheel?

It's conveying additional information spatially. How valuable you consider that to be may vary, but it's definitely additional utility.

Zero value. Color-coding "good" and "evil" options and having them positioned at specific places is dumbyfing the RPG experience and treating gamers like children. Like I need the game to tell me what is a "good" option.

[Ziggeh]

Maiden Crowe wrote...

I suppose I see your point though it is not like this couldn't be done on a list however it would look a lot sillier

Yep, it could, but it wouldn't be as immediate, and would get more convoluted by additional responses.

[Aaleel]

So basically from reading this topic it seems to come down to not knowing the tone of what is going to said or not knowing what is going to be said because the paraphrase ultimately doesn't match what come out of the protagonist mouth.

I've experienced more of the latter than the former personally but I think the wheel is going to forever be tied to the voiced protagonist.

[Jamie9]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Doing something unexpected? No problem as such. Not necessarily, anyway. However, I very much doubt you wouldn't mind if your character said something that went against the core values of your character as you envisioned them, just because there is no way to differentiate between "appreciative non-moralistic" and "appreciative moralistic" by placement on the wheel and the paraphrase failed to indicate what it would be.

You're correct. That would annoy the heck out of me, and I'd most likely reload, even if nobody reacted to the comment.

But that's the POV of a hardcore role-player, which I'm willing to bet we're part of a minority in terms of the audience. The ease of use of the wheel and it's aesthetic values are obviously big enough boons that BioWare went with that option in the ME series and DA2 onwards.

My opinion is the same as yours, but you asked for why people thought BioWare went for the wheel - that's why I think they did.

[Ziggeh]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Zero value. Color-coding "good" and "evil" options and having them positioned at specific places is dumbyfing the RPG experience and treating gamers like children. Like I need the game to tell me what is a "good" option.

As I said in the post you replied to, that it has a value is not open to debate. It does something a list does not. Whether you consider that good or bad isn't relevant.

"Dubyfing the RPG experience" is meaningless rhetoric and the wheel is making use of a basic understanding of human interaction and thought. They're not "telling you" they are indicating. 

[esper]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

d4eaming wrote...

When my character finds out about Alistair being a half-blooded prince, I picked the option "so you're a royal bastard?" expecting it to be insulting- Alistair sort of giggled and smiled "haha yeah, yeah, I guess you could say that!" and says something about using that line later.

So, dialogue wheel haters- poof, there, my character just did something out of his nature because there was absolutely no way, whatsoever, to infer it was a joke and not an insult. At least if the line had been purple, I'd have known in advance what to expect.

Also, I despise it when people say "well they just misunderstood you, people do that in real life all the time!" Everyone does? Every time I open my mouth, all of my acquaintances and friends misunderstand every last thing I say? ...no. That's stupid.

You are wrong on every account. Yes, peoepl do misunderstand you.. sometimes on purpose.
If we assume you wanted to insult him:

- Alistair may have missedread your intent
- He may have understood your intent, but being a bastard doesn't bother him, so what you thought would hurt him and cause an angry reaction, does not.
- He may have understood but deliberately spun it into a joke...for variosu reasons. To give you a finger, to confuse you, as a defense mechanism. Whatever.

You are equating the reaction of another person with your intent. While they generally are predictable and the same, they don't have to be.

Because in a video game it is so. If this was real life, d4eamings character would hear that Alistair did not get hurt (or at least pretend to not get hurt) and then would have the option to decide between either insult Alistair further or let it slide, depending on the level of jerk of the character.

We do not have that level of clarifications in a game, and depending on how much it happens for the person playing it can be impossible to play the character you want even with the list.

At least in da2 I always knew my character intent because of the Icons, so when the companions and other NPCs (such as Merrill) didn't get it, it was clear that they were misunderstanding (that is not clear in da:o, because you do not know if the misunderstanding lies with the player or with the NPC).

And I personally value the intent much more than the actual words.

[Neon Rising Winter]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Doing something unexpected? No problem as such. Not necessarily, anyway. However, I very much doubt you wouldn't mind if your character said something that went against the core values of your character as you envisioned them.

That's what I didn't run into with the paraphrasing issue. Things may have been said in a way I wasn't expecting, but usually that was an unexpected turn of phrase and it's quite nice to be surprised now and then. If a little depressing to discover your video game character is wittier than you are. The tone and general content though - okay, I can't guarantee there was never any mismatch, but when I think of the game it is not a problem that springs to mind.

[Ieldra]

Aaleel wrote...
So basically from reading this topic it seems to come down to not knowing the tone of what is going to said or not knowing what is going to be said because the paraphrase ultimately doesn't match what come out of the protagonist mouth.

I've experienced more of the latter than the former personally but I think the wheel is going to forever be tied to the voiced protagonist.

There's no reason why tone indicators like in DA2 couldn't be used with a list. And, as the system they've shown for DAI shows, there's no reason why the disadvantages of paraphrasing couldn't be circumvented when using the wheel.

I guess what we learn from this is that there is no simple dialogue system that works for everyone once you have a voiced protagonist. Some things are bound to be less simple for the simple reason that human interaction isn't simple.

[Ziggeh]

Jamie9 wrote...
I've said since ME2 that paraphrasing should be a toggle.

Just a guess, as I personally don't see much of an issue, but I imagine the rational against is something like this:

Putting in a toggle would be asking people to choose between less information or a weaker cinematic experience, due to repetition. Because it's a game, people will choose information for the purposes of advantage, rather than experience. We could argue, as we might with any toggle, that provided it was our choice it doesn't matter if the experience is weaker, but that would be clearly counter to the design principles to which they work. 

edit: this is assuming you want them to include both - they have to write differently for a silent protagonist that would make it might make full text more confusing than the paraphrase.

Modifié par Ziggeh, 05 septembre 2013 - 01:03 .

[esper]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...
So basically from reading this topic it seems to come down to not knowing the tone of what is going to said or not knowing what is going to be said because the paraphrase ultimately doesn't match what come out of the protagonist mouth.

I've experienced more of the latter than the former personally but I think the wheel is going to forever be tied to the voiced protagonist.

There's no reason why tone indicators like in DA2 couldn't be used with a list. And, as the system they've shown for DAI shows, there's no reason why the disadvantages of paraphrasing couldn't be circumvented when using the wheel.

I guess what we learn from this is that there is no simple dialogue system that works for everyone once you have a voiced protagonist. Some things are bound to be less simple for the simple reason that human interaction isn't simple.

Actually there is no simple dialog system that works for anyone not matter if the protagonist are voiced or not. After all people still had problem with da:o's voiceless warden sometimes too.

Basically it is different people prefer different thing. At least bioware is trying to improve with the system the talked about in those articles. (Something about players being able to choose a hover over that will describe the effect of the choice).

[Ieldra]

Narrow Margin wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
Doing something unexpected? No problem as such. Not necessarily, anyway. However, I very much doubt you wouldn't mind if your character said something that went against the core values of your character as you envisioned them.

That's what I didn't run into with the paraphrasing issue. Things may have been said in a way I wasn't expecting, but usually that was an unexpected turn of phrase and it's quite nice to be surprised now and then. If a little depressing to discover your video game character is wittier than you are. The tone and general content though - okay, I can't guarantee there was never any mismatch, but when I think of the game it is not a problem that springs to mind.

Then you've been lucky, and admittedly DA2 was mostly friendly to me here, as opposed to ME3. The example I gave was a one-time occurrence in its extremity.

However, your response made me aware of an additional problem I haven't mentioned before in this thread: If you don't know what you're going to say and the paraphases are somewhat misleading, you might select an option while never knowing that a *different* option is exactly what you want to say. This is a little more subtle since it only affects you if you replay the scene, but it can be equally annoying. This happened to me in ME3 several times, and tone indicators wouldn't have made a difference.

[Fast Jimmy]

My only concern is that with the hover over (the same with the icons in DA2) is that it does have the risk of choosing outcomes, rather than choosing tone/intent.

For instance, the only way to trigger a full romance in DA2 was clicking the Heart icon, which is meant to indicate a tone of being lovey dovey. Yet in Morrigan's romance, she scorns the idea of being lovey dovey, calling it soft and weak. I would say if there is Morrigan-esque romance arc, the way to progress the romance would be needing to choose an option other than the Heart icon, because otherwise you run the risk of picking the exact outcome of the dialogue, rather than the tone.

Often, these will match up, true... but if NPCs can't react in ways we don't expect, nor if different tactics in dialogue than what may be the most obvious on the surface would need to be used, it becomes an issue of just clicking the icon/outcome, rather than understanding what your character is saying, regardless of the outcome. That way, you are roleplaying what the character is saying, not simply choosing the outcome you want as the player.

An argument many would view as purely semantics, but it does result in an overall different experience for the end user.

[just_me]

I'm fairly certain one of the major reasons for a wheel is that console players can choose options easier by moving the stick/D-Pad in the given direction.

But from a pure UI design perspective radial menus DO have advantages over list based menus:

Like all options are equidistant to a central point and thus less cursor movement is required (which is usually a desirable property. That argument has more weight if you bring up the menu with a click and it's centered around the current cursor position...) and options appear as more equal... options lower on a list tend to appear as less important even more so if you have to scroll down to see them.

A single option can take more real estate on the menu reducing the chance to accidentely click the wrong option.

One of the major drawbacks is that the available space for an option decreases with the number of options in the menu... which might become a mess.
I personally think this is an advantage for dialog presentation though... if you have that many options, it's time to categorize and put them in more manageable chunks. I find a scrollable list with 18 options and questions, dialogue advancing options and other stuff at once rather messy and NOT all that usable.

[Neon Rising Winter]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Then you've been lucky, and admittedly DA2 was mostly friendly to me here, as opposed to ME3. The example I gave was a one-time occurrence in its extremity.

However, your response made me aware of an additional problem I haven't mentioned before in this thread: If you don't know what you're going to say and the paraphases are somewhat misleading, you might select an option while never knowing that a *different* option is exactly what you want to say. This is a little more subtle since it only affects you if you replay the scene, but it can be equally annoying. This happened to me in ME3 several times, and tone indicators wouldn't have made a difference.

I am thinking DA2 here, and considering this in the context of the ease of use of dialogue in DAO vs DA2. The comparison is on my mind as I started going through a new game of DAO the other day and right now I'd like a dialogue wheel. In going back to the list option I'm finding it clumsier than I remember. Conversations end when I'm not done with choosing options, or they end and I'm not sure if I've missed something. Now it's only a low level annoyance, and I'm sure I can get used to it again, but it feels like a retrograde step from the dialogue wheel.