208 réponses à ce sujet

[Taleroth]

One of the funnier aspects of Mass Effect's implementation of the dialogue wheel, or at least their stance system, was how it would result in multiple instances of the same response. Because it required them to give the illusion of a choice even when there was none to be had.

They seemed to be trying to resolve this with autodialogue, or maybe it was just a happy accident. But it seemed the wrong way to go.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Ziggeh wrote...
As I said in the post you replied to, that it has a value is not open to debate. It does something a list does not. Whether you consider that good or bad isn't relevant.
[/quote]

But it is open to debate. And wether or not it's a negative value is relevant.


Peronsally I'd probably go with a half-circle menu in the corner of the screen with full lines.

Easy for the analog stick, has room for mood/intent icons and you can fit a lot more text, so no paraphrases.


[quote]
And I personally value the intent much more than the actual words.
[/qutoe]

And I personally value having fine control over my character and not watching a movie.

[CheshireCat1701]

Paraphrasing is used for the simple reason that DA games now have a voiced protagonist (thank you, maker!) and to read a line and then hearing the same line spoken is redundant and very quickly becomes annoying.
As long as there is a voiced protagonist, there will be paraphrasing.
I actually think the Bioware writers did a very good job with the paraphrasing in DA2. I've heard the argument before, and I recently played the game with that in mind. With a few glaring exceptions, I found that the paraphrasing conveyed exactly what it was meant to.

[Ziggeh]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

An argument many would view as purely semantics, but it does result in an overall different experience for the end user.

I think it's an important distinction. The heart icon was an out of character, authorial decision: "And now there will be romance" rather than it occurring as the result of attempts or natural dialogue.

I'm sort of on the fence, as I tend to approach it from a partly "author" perspective, but it felt somewhat heavy handed.

[Ziggeh]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

But it is open to debate. And wether or not it's a negative value is relevant.

To whether or not something additional is additional? You might have to outline that one for me. I was discussing utility. What were you discussing?

Modifié par Ziggeh, 05 septembre 2013 - 01:34 .

[Maiden Crowe]

d4eaming wrote...

When my character finds out about Alistair being a half-blooded prince, I picked the option "so you're a royal bastard?" expecting it to be insulting- Alistair sort of giggled and smiled "haha yeah, yeah, I guess you could say that!" and says something about using that line later.

Let me give you some advice bastard. Never forget what you are, the rest of the world will not. Wear it like armour and it can never be used to hurt you.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

At this point, I think they just have it out of plain tradition and nothing more now.

[Avaflame]

I get the feeling that explaining any positive experiences I get from the wheel will just be handwaved and told that I'm wrong, but regardless, here goes.

The biggest thing I, personally, get from the wheel is knowing which choices are investigate options and which advance the conversation. As a nut, I like hearing as much dialogue as I can, and in Origins I was always reloading a conversation to see if I could have said more. Sometimes I could have, sometimes I couldn't, but I didn't KNOW. To me, that makes the wheel preferable.

With the paraphrasing, I do not know where the assumption it has to do with space comes from. It's all about the voiced protagonist. You wouldn't always be able to fit what Hawke/The Inquisitor is going to say regardless of what format it is going to be presented to you. Also the developers wanted to avoid (and while people say it wouldn't matter to them, I believe it would be an issue) people reading something and then listening to the same thing, potentially resorting to skipping dialogue. With saying something different from what I intended, yes, this was an issue for me. But no more so than Origins. While I always knew what I was saying in Origins, I didn't know how I was saying it, and that often caused problems for me. Words are ambiguous, with meaning often taken from surrounding tone and body language, not semantics.

As to making it easier for console users, possibly, but in that area it's actually more difficult for me to use. Scrolling down the list in Origins was not a chore by any means, while with the wheel I had to constantly make sure (and sometimes failed) my finger didn't spasm slightly or slip just as I go to select what to say, resulting in a different choice being made.

[Ieldra]

@Avaflame:
No, I genuinely want to know about such things. As of now, I can see where the wheel mechanic adds utility in form of positioning indicating things like tone (diplomatic, neutral, agressive) or whether or not an option is going to end a conversation. Yes, I recall the latter having been a problem in DAO.

However, there is no way I can see the paraphrasing as a good thing. The problem you mention - reading something and then listening to it - it would have been a much lesser issue than hearing my protagonist say things I don't want. The paraphrases often don't indicate more than a dominating emotion, and that's simply not enough to make a meaningful choice.

[Ieldra]

d4eaming wrote...
When my character finds out about Alistair being a half-blooded prince, I picked the option "so you're a royal bastard?" expecting it to be insulting- Alistair sort of giggled and smiled "haha yeah, yeah, I guess you could say that!" and says something about using that line later.

The actual line was "So you're not just a bastard but a royal bastard". I think the joke is clear in that.

[Taleroth]

Ieldra2 wrote...

The problem you mention - reading something and then listening to it - it would have been a much lesser issue than hearing my protagonist say things I don't want.

It loses the emotional tone when you read it before they say it. Basically because you have no reason to not skip it since you've already read it. And the tone from the voice actor is something Bioware feels is very important

[Jamie9]

Ziggeh wrote...
Just a guess, as I personally don't see much of an issue, but I imagine the rational against is something like this:

Putting in a toggle would be asking people to choose between less information or a weaker cinematic experience, due to repetition. Because it's a game, people will choose information for the purposes of advantage, rather than experience. We could argue, as we might with any toggle, that provided it was our choice it doesn't matter if the experience is weaker, but that would be clearly counter to the design principles to which they work. 

edit: this is assuming you want them to include both - they have to write differently for a silent protagonist that would make it might make full text more confusing than the paraphrase.

I didn't mean a toggle for silent protagonist vs. voiced protagonist, just for the option to paraphrase or not. The result would be the same - the protagonist would say their lines.

You're absolutely correct in saying that including a toggle is not always a solution, however. Not only could it lean heavily one way, as you gave in your example, but the developer could simply have a vision and want it a certain way.

[jtav]

I think it's a playstyle difference. Most players don't plan a character beyond "I want to be a good guy" and having to both read and listen to the dialogue takes too long without appreciable benefit because they aren't playing nuanced characters.

[Ziggeh]

Jamie9 wrote...
I didn't mean a toggle for silent protagonist vs. voiced protagonist, just for the option to paraphrase or not. The result would be the same - the protagonist would say their lines.

I mean the same, the information being the choice from full delivery and the weaker experience being repetition. Like I say, just a guess as to why they'd ignore an option we might otherwise see as a perfect solution.

[Will-o'-wisp]

I've said since ME2 that paraphrasing should be a toggle. Fortunately, they pretty much have that in DA:I. I will certainly have it on.

I certainly hope that this is true. We've seen the additional info box for clarifying what decision you're gonna make but not for giving you the exact lines of dialogue you will say.

I don't mind the wheel, but I just hate the paraphrasing sometimes and it would be a great relief if they implement the possibility to get rid of it.

[CheshireCat1701]

Ieldra2 wrote...

However, there is no way I can see the paraphrasing as a good thing. The problem you mention - reading something and then listening to it - it would have been a much lesser issue than hearing my protagonist say things I don't want. 

I suppose it is a matter of perspective.  For me, seeing the list of possible dialogue options and disliking all of them is pretty much the same as having my character say something I don't want.

[MisterMonkeyBanana]

Hopefully (at least for me) judging from the dialogue wheel options from the demo with the wounded soldiers, the dialogue wheel (and dialogue in general) will be less about giving you diplomatic/troll/big meanie points and more about making interesting decisions, where the wheel does come in handy since it seems less like a questionnaire.

Modifié par MisterMonkeyBanana, 05 septembre 2013 - 03:38 .

[Fast Jimmy]

The biggest thing I, personally, get from the wheel is knowing which choices are investigate options and which advance the conversation. As a nut, I like hearing as much dialogue as I can, and in Origins I was always reloading a conversation to see if I could have said more. Sometimes I could have, sometimes I couldn't, but I didn't KNOW. To me, that makes the wheel preferable.

To me, that could actually be viewed as a negative, as it flags exactly which options will move the conversation forward and which ones will keep things static. In DA:O, Inwould carefully review each option to see which ones would provide information and which ones prompt for further advancement of the conversation. Not knowing meant I had to consider the options much more carefully. And it sometimes resulted in choosing an option that moved the conversation forward unexpectedly... but to me, that felt like a real conversation. Things ebb and flow and move unexpectedly.

It may result in not getting all conversation topics every time, true. And the stated goal of Bioware isn't to make a realistic conversation simulator, but to have a dialogue system that gives the player control. But still... I find it removes a lot of the thought and consideration from choosing dialogue options when everything is somewhat artificially labeled as such.

While I always knew what I was saying in Origins, I didn't know how I was saying it, and that often caused problems for me. Words are ambiguous, with meaning often taken from surrounding tone and body language, not semantics.

And I agree here that sometimes the responses from NPCs indicated the PC took a tone that may have not been intended by the player (or, as the argument may go, that the PC gave the same tone as the player intended, but the NPC misinterpreted it). However, this is easily overcome with text. The examples given earlier with Vampire the Masquerade, where the color of the text indicates tone, or the old "I'm going to give you more than a fistful of coins <aggressive>" to indicate the tone, instead of leaving things 100% ambiguous.

But that being said, I would say that the time for this discussion has long since passed. It was maybe applicable this time last year, but at this point, all design features at this level are firmly locked in. It seems that Bioware has heard the complaints mentioned in these aruments last year (some of which have been duplicated here) given that there is the presence of the hover-over, as well as the promise of some clearer paraphrasing in DA:I. So we will be seeing how this presentation works and if it can be improved over what DA2 offered or not.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 05 septembre 2013 - 02:14 .

[The Elder King]

They said that there want to make three different wheel: tone wheel (DA2 wheel), that will not be about making decisions, the decision wheel (like the one in the demo), and the new emotion wheel, where you can express emotions in determinate dialogues, without being forced by the game to a certain emotion.

[Maria Caliban]

Ieldra2 wrote...

While selection on the wheel is indeed fast (well, no improvement for me but neither is it slower and I can see why it would work better with a controller), the paraphrasing system is good for impulsive players who neither think or care much about what they're going to say except in the broadest possible sense, but not so good for everyone else.

You are so full of yourself.

[Fast Jimmy]

jtav wrote...

I think it's a playstyle difference. Most players don't plan a character beyond "I want to be a good guy" and having to both read and listen to the dialogue takes too long without appreciable benefit because they aren't playing nuanced characters.

There is a lot of truth here. One could easily use the dialogue wheel to "Investigate, investigate, Investiagte, Paragon/Diplomatic option" and not put any thought whatsoever to what their character was saying. While it makes the interface easier to use, it also can make the choice in dialogue nearly mindless.

[abnocte]

d4eaming wrote...

When my character finds out about Alistair being a half-blooded prince, I picked the option "so you're a royal bastard?" expecting it to be insulting-Alistair sort of giggled and smiled "haha yeah, yeah, I guess you could say
that!" and says something about using that line later.

So, dialogue wheel haters- poof, there, my character just did something out of his nature because there was absolutely no way, whatsoever, to infer it was a joke and not an insult. At least if the line had been purple, I'd have known in advance what to expect.

Also, I despise it when people say "well they just misunderstood you, people do that in real life all the time!"

Everyone does? Every time I open my mouth, all of my acquaintances and friends misunderstand every last thing I say? ... no. That's stupid.

Not always is a misunderstanding, some people are just like that, you can tell mean things to them and they just brush them off. That doesn't change the fact that the person's intention was to harm them verbally.

About that particular sentence in DA:O I've used it with more than one warden, but the reasons for each one of them to choose that particular line were different. One of them really meant to insult Alistair, the other was just joking around.

One sentence + no intent = 2 ( or more ) different wardens.
One sentence + predefined intent = 1 and only 1.

So the main difference between wheel and tree is how much licence is given to the player about WHO the PC is and WHY s/he behaves the way s/he does.

From that point of view, I consider the wheel a step backward.


That said I guess the origin of the wheel was to find and easy to use interface for console players and from there it evolved to what we know.

I personally don't care if the information is presented to me in a tree or a wheel as long as I get all the info I need to decide which dialogue option my character will say, and to me it includes the full text.

I also don’t have a problem with reading the full text and hearing it again, I’m no English native speaker, so I ALWAYS read the subtitles. Since I can’t read what my PC says in advance I have to strain myself to read as fast as possible all text because I know I won’t be able to pick up everything they say.

I personally think that the optimal solution would be to have a system that shows us the full text and allows us to select the intent independently. A fine example can be found in PS:T, it used the old dialogue tree but sometimes it offered the exact same sentence twice with a preceding tag showing the intent.

-[truth] I’ll help you.
-[lie] I’ll help you.
- <other options>


Edit: Weird formatting

Modifié par abnocte, 05 septembre 2013 - 03:02 .

[In Exile]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
You are wrong on every account. Yes, peoepl do misunderstand you.. sometimes on purpose.
If we assume you wanted to insult him:

...
nother person with your intent. While they generally are predictable and the same, they don't have to be.

This nonsense comes up every single time. If Alistair misunderstands, in my very next breath IRL I could tell him to be quiet becausse no one cares about his pathetic sob story.

In DA:O, the whole conversatiom moves on and we're buddy buddy and I get a nice Alistair Approves + 2 out of the whole conversation. 

This objection that characters sometimes misuderstand IRL and the accompanying headcannon for how they misunderstands excludes the fact that people IRL frequently correct misunderstandings.

You can't correct misunderstands. And if my characters aren't passive pushovers, not being able to correct misunderstandings is a character breaking event. 
 '
We have an entire trope about people "not geing the message" and lots of situational humour is based on that. 

[DarkSpider88]

Wulfram wrote...

Paraphrasing isn't a consequence of the wheel, it's a consequence of the voiced protagonist.

Though I don't really get the advantage of the wheel either. I tend to assume it works better with a controller or something.

is it really a choice of the voiced protagonist, or the consequence of having voiced characters?

I remember DA:O having some dialogue options, but nonetheless the characters you interacted with also only had so many responses.

[Ieldra]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

jtav wrote...

I think it's a playstyle difference. Most players don't plan a character beyond "I want to be a good guy" and having to both read and listen to the dialogue takes too long without appreciable benefit because they aren't playing nuanced characters.

There is a lot of truth here. One could easily use the dialogue wheel to "Investigate, investigate, Investiagte, Paragon/Diplomatic option" and not put any thought whatsoever to what their character was saying. While it makes the interface easier to use, it also can make the choice in dialogue nearly mindless.

This echoes what I said earlier: the wheel works well for those who don't care about the details of what their character says, as long as it's something a generic good guy bad guy) would possibly say. I don't mind such a style of playing is possible, but it shouldn't make playing more nuanced characters such a trial.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 septembre 2013 - 03:38 .